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PvP , why 4gate is unstopable ? - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Ingruz
Profile Joined May 2010
Italy380 Posts
January 16 2011 14:32 GMT
#21
On January 16 2011 23:11 Leviance wrote:
Watch White-Ra vs Naniwa game 2 Homestory Cup 2 to see how to defend


link?
My life for Aiur!
413X
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden203 Posts
January 16 2011 14:33 GMT
#22
Why the hell are people defending this by saying "learn to counter 4gate"? Forcefielding the lower side of the ramp IS the damn counter. If you manage to get that pylon up when just before your warp gates finnish and you don't have 4 gate yourself, u have lost. If you say anything otherwise, it's the 4gater himselfs fault in some way.
The pro noob
idonthinksobro
Profile Joined December 2010
3138 Posts
January 16 2011 14:34 GMT
#23
the reason why you think a 4gate is unstoppable in PvP is simply because you get too many sentries. Many Protoss player get like 6-8 sentrys to have enough mins for an expansion even after they know that they are getting allined they still get like 6-8 sentries and 0zlots 0 stalker and wonder why they dont stand a chance with their 300 mins stockpiled. Get like 1-2 sentrys and some fighting units and you will be able to defend with almost any build 3gate robo/2 gate robo/4gate/ 3gate/exe everything.
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 14:57:53
January 16 2011 14:35 GMT
#24
The other day, on Response's stream, he and his buddy were practicing how to defend 4 gate on that particular map (Xel'Naga).

I could not watch all the practice, but up til where I was watching, Response had found that you can stop 4 gate with 3 gate pumping out sentries and double force-fielding the ramp verically in a way that you cant get vision of the high ground.

Hopefully Response could come here and enlighten us

Edit: like this
[image loading]
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
MindRush
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania916 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 14:39:53
January 16 2011 14:38 GMT
#25
just 3 question for you, mister Crappy (the OP)

- Are you the kind of toss who always goes 2/3 gate robo then observer for scouting?
- Are you the kind of player who never attempts to scout unless with 1st scouting probe? (and the only reason he does that is cause he has seen people do this on husky's channel)
- Are you the kind of player who stays with his army in his base and low apm and waits for that damn observer to see what his opponent is doing, and when he scouts the shit, he can't fix it?

If you are one of this things, but SCOUTMORE, for only 22.99APM. SCOUTMORE is a revolutionary product used by progamers, league winners and amateurs alike. Tests show that the proper use of SCOUTMORE benefits agains cheeses, rushes, hidden expos and even map control issues. So why wait? Buy SCOUTMORE today and get free Xel'Naga vision and map information.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
REM.ca
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada354 Posts
January 16 2011 14:39 GMT
#26
I don't understand what you want patched. I don't see the bug here. Doesn't this work as intended?

I hope you're not proposing that gaining vision of high ground once 3/4 up the ramp needs to be patched.
I have a palm permanently stuck to my face yo.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
January 16 2011 14:39 GMT
#27
This trick is ages old.

Sure it is easy for P to force themselves onto a ramp through a forcefield. Besides this trick there is also the hallucinated colossus (tramples the forcefields) and the blink stalker rush.
This doesn't mean the forcefield isn't effective.... THe FF still cuts the army in half AND forces the attacking player to warp right in front of the defender's units (which can be easily picked off).

The key to defending a 4 gate is just to not make too many sentries (just 1 or 2) and have some ranged units with that. There are still tons of strats that defend a 4 gate easily (2 / 3 gate robo or dt tech for example).

If there is any problem with a 4 gate it's not the power of the 4 gate but how hard it is to scout imo. For example a FE and 4 gate build have the same build up to the point of the expo really, so if you defend with a 3 gate robo build you still lose to a FE build. DT build is good vs both but then again loses to a robo build and needs to be committed too very early.
413X
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden203 Posts
January 16 2011 14:41 GMT
#28
On January 16 2011 23:39 Markwerf wrote:
This trick is ages old.

Sure it is easy for P to force themselves onto a ramp through a forcefield. Besides this trick there is also the hallucinated colossus (tramples the forcefields) and the blink stalker rush.
This doesn't mean the forcefield isn't effective.... THe FF still cuts the army in half AND forces the attacking player to warp right in front of the defender's units (which can be easily picked off).

The key to defending a 4 gate is just to not make too many sentries (just 1 or 2) and have some ranged units with that. There are still tons of strats that defend a 4 gate easily (2 / 3 gate robo or dt tech for example).

If there is any problem with a 4 gate it's not the power of the 4 gate but how hard it is to scout imo. For example a FE and 4 gate build have the same build up to the point of the expo really, so if you defend with a 3 gate robo build you still lose to a FE build. DT build is good vs both but then again loses to a robo build and needs to be committed too very early.


Hallucinated colossus does NOT take away forcefields...
The pro noob
PatouPower
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1119 Posts
January 16 2011 14:45 GMT
#29
what if the force field is placed at the very TOP of the ramp, with the sentries right next to it, so there is not enough vision/place to warp in ANY units? Please, try this (I can help too if anyone wants to do this) and post pictures. Then, and then only I will say 4gates is broken, because even if you have the vision up-ramp, there is not enough place to warp in (sentries/zealots/stalkers taking too much space).

Or, you can do something safer, like double force fielding the ramp, so there is not enough place to warp-in either. I am pretty sure you haven't tried everything mentionned above before posting this, or if you have, please, can you post the screeshot of it failing? Thank you.

/pissed mode off

P.S.: I wrote this in a pissed off mode because I am tired of people asking blizzard to nerf everything while they haven't tried everything themselves to solve the problem. The beginnings of BW wasn't perfect either, but people tried and found ways around to counter things like that. They didn't rely on a patch to solve everything...
Crappy
Profile Joined July 2010
France224 Posts
January 16 2011 14:48 GMT
#30
On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire.
If you can give me some replays, i'll love you forever ♥

On January 16 2011 23:10 emythrel wrote:
surely you should be putting your FF on the ramp, not below it. your enemy has vision of the ramp, which means they can warp in on it. if you FF on the ramp they cannot warp in since the FF takes up the space. That way they have to get a zealot up the ramp first before they can warp in above the FF.
this is the only place to block of the zealot up-cliff. the bug is that with 1 forcefield, you can :
- OR block the zealot sentry.
- OR block the warping on-ramp.


On January 16 2011 23:11 AdrenalGBR wrote:
Yep, this has been around for quite some time and I'm sure there have probably been threads on it but people still don't seem to understand how it works (I had to explain it to some guy in a ladder game yesterday).

4-gate can still be defended by other builds in certain situations (cf. forelmashi beating MaNa, TLOpen #8) like if they try and surprise you with it after using all their chronos and not cutting Probes at 16. MaNa also had trouble against ZeeRaX in a recent tournament although he ended up winning that game in pretty incredible fashion.
That's why i made this thread.


No seriously, 4 gate in PvP is pretty fun, and rewards good play (micro+multitask+chrono). I dont get why 4 gate in PvP can't be fun.
On the contrary, stupid cannon rushes take no skill and are cheesy as hell.
I hope you are not serious.


On January 16 2011 23:33 413X wrote:
Why the hell are people defending this by saying "learn to counter 4gate"? Forcefielding the lower side of the ramp IS the damn counter. If you manage to get that pylon up when just before your warp gates finnish and you don't have 4 gate yourself, u have lost. If you say anything otherwise, it's the 4gater himselfs fault in some way.
4gate non-haters need to re-read that.


On January 16 2011 23:38 MindRush wrote:
just 3 question for you, mister Crappy (the OP)

- Are you the kind of toss who always goes 2/3 gate robo then observer for scouting?
- Are you the kind of player who never attempts to scout unless with 1st scouting probe? (and the only reason he does that is cause he has seen people do this on husky's channel)
- Are you the kind of player who stays with his army in his base and low apm and waits for that damn observer to see what his opponent is doing, and when he scouts the shit, he can't fix it?

If you are one of this things, but SCOUTMORE, for only 22.99APM. SCOUTMORE is a revolutionary product used by progamers, league winners and amateurs alike. Tests show that the proper use of SCOUTMORE benefits agains cheeses, rushes, hidden expos and even map control issues. So why wait? Buy SCOUTMORE today and get free Xel'Naga vision and map information.
- nope
- nope
- nope
dartoo
Profile Joined May 2010
India2889 Posts
January 16 2011 14:49 GMT
#31
A very similar 4 gate was defended a few minutes ago on the homestory cup, was quite amazing to watch.

But at the same time it seemed like that type of defence would take amazing skill and precise forcefielids to do it, dont think it can be done by everyone.
Crappy
Profile Joined July 2010
France224 Posts
January 16 2011 14:51 GMT
#32
On January 16 2011 23:39 REM.ca wrote:
I don't understand what you want patched. I don't see the bug here. Doesn't this work as intended?

I hope you're not proposing that gaining vision of high ground once 3/4 up the ramp needs to be patched.

Hum , how about click "show spoiler" ?
Gemini_19
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1238 Posts
January 16 2011 14:52 GMT
#33
On January 16 2011 23:24 Eviltoast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2011 23:22 TemplarCo. wrote:
well 4gate isn't really unstoppable unless you:
1) don't have enough units
2) try to rush for some high tech
or
3) you fast expanded
If none of this happens really the pylon warp-in thing really doesn't matter


what build do you use then that fits these criteria?


A 4gate -___-
@GGemini19 GM Protoss | http://www.twitch.tv/geminisc2 | I <333 HerO & Trap | Check out my Build of the Week series on /r/allthingsprotoss, TL, or Spawning Tool
Dingotrold
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark622 Posts
January 16 2011 14:54 GMT
#34
White-RA saw this thread and + Show Spoiler +
steamlol'ed naniwa along with your logic...
Soft is the blade that is the heart || 万歳!
Crappy
Profile Joined July 2010
France224 Posts
January 16 2011 14:55 GMT
#35
On January 16 2011 23:54 Dingotrold wrote:
White-RA saw this thread and + Show Spoiler +
steamlol'ed naniwa along with your logic...

link ?
Dingotrold
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark622 Posts
January 16 2011 14:58 GMT
#36
http://www.readmore.de/index.php?cont=matches&id=32548

Delta Quadrant
Soft is the blade that is the heart || 万歳!
NearPerfection
Profile Joined October 2010
232 Posts
January 16 2011 14:59 GMT
#37
This isn't a bug so its never going to be patched people found this out ages ago and adapted their build orders, maybe instead of complaining about something thats obviously not an imbalance or bug you should learn what build orders beat 4 gate and simply get a slight edge.
Doso
Profile Joined March 2008
Germany769 Posts
January 16 2011 15:06 GMT
#38
You are right, PvP is clearly imbalanced now. Blizzard should fix this asap...

...

.. oh wait.
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 15:06:46
January 16 2011 15:06 GMT
#39
Edit: Homestory Cup Whitera Nani spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +

Stop using WhiteRa v. Nani as an example of how to defend 4gate, that was extremely impressive but it was clutch. Nani could have won that game just as well. Random diamond (or ML I suppose) trying to mimic WhiteRa could very well just die attempting it.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 15:08:26
January 16 2011 15:07 GMT
#40
I agree with the sentiment that they need to do something about 4gate, just because of how often the build is used and how successful it actually it s..
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