|
On January 28 2011 04:09 Skyro wrote:
And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups.
I feel an immense amount of pressure in ZvP to prepare for a 4-gate until I see that my P opponent is specifically NOT doing it. Being caught without enough lings or roaches to at least buy enough time for further reinforcements is game ending. Even if you have the production and economy to outproduce P, there is a 10 second window in there where P can just walk straight through your base unless you completely stop drone production around 25 (some variants require cutting drones as early as 20) in order to bulk up your army just in case.
This seems like pretty much the same thing and it sounds like you think 4-gate should be nerfed in general.
Personally, it sounds fine to me, especially considering all the different variations of 4-gate that are possible. You have 3 units with completely different functions that can be created in different amounts to get the desired effect. 1 gas, 2 gas, pulling probes back off when the desired gas number is achieved. All small differences that should be easily noted by the informed viewer/player.
And it's not like 4-gate is at a disadvantage against 4-gate.
|
Whether or not 4gate is too strong is up to balance. However this glitch that lets you warp up a ramp with no vision should be removed. As if there wasn't enough lack of high ground advantage already.
|
2600 Masters - Viking Kappa - QTIP
I use the 4 gate 1 gas all in (5:45 Attack) all the time, and I've only ever lost/stalemated against DT rushes.
I know the build is weak to two gate pressure early as well, but I rarely see that.
In my humble experience, 4 gate is the way to go =\.
|
I agree. I know some may disagree and maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But... this is the reason why you need 4 gates to defend!!If a forcefield at the bottom of the ramp did not allow warpins on the ramp then sentries could actually be used to defend it. As it is now... Sometimes you can defend with really good forcefields and unit composition if you don't 4 gate, but sometimes not. At least make the guy who wants to warp in get vision. Forcing that would make the 4 gater get hallucination or some other means to see up the ramp, which would really help the matchup in my opinion.
|
On January 17 2011 03:33 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Did anybody read this? The reigning TSL champ just chimed in with his tactic for stopping a 4 gate and it seems like nobody payed any mind.No seriously. I just got done reading that, scrolled down, read the following posts, and it seems like some just ignored what Tyler just said, continuing with "4 GATE IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE I DO <insert flawed tactic here> AND THEY STILL WIN" without even bothering to develop an effective counter argument to Tyler's approach. No wonder there's such a hubbub around pros not wanting to read the strategy forums. Nobody listens. Watch his stream sometime to see it in action.
Truth.
I find 3gate robo smashes 4 gate in stalker wars, but you are put on the defensive early. Not as efficient as 2gate robo, but you can hulk-smash through any gateway army and all-in for the kill.
|
this is why you make the forcefield slightly higher up the ramp...
it's not a glitch, and its not a problem, the only issue here is BAD FORCEFIELD PLACEMENT
this thread needs to die
|
On January 28 2011 04:09 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 02:21 VelRa_G wrote:On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Why didn't people just listen to this and stop discussing? Because it wasn't a complete answer. The *easiest* way to stop an optimal 4-gate is to simply 4-gate yourself and IMO is the *only* way to stop it on maps like DQ and JB where you can warp-in through a backdoor. People who do not rationally think about a person's advice, even if from a credible source, is just as bad as people who ignore said advice. And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups. So rather than try to nitpick holes in the OP's arguement, or take one person's advice as gospel, see the OP is trying to say, reason things out for yourself, grab a practice partner and practice defending, then come back and contribute something meaningful. And AFAIK there is no way to use a single FF to prevent warp-ins up your ramp, contrary to what a lot of people are suggesting.
The thing is...why would you want to stop that? Unless you are MAJORLY skimping on early units, you should be able to rape those units with sentries and zealots with almost no loss to yourself....they have to warp in directly under your fire. Then you have another ~30 seconds before the next group comes. And if you have enough sentries, then you can definitely FF your ramp and prolong this indefinitely for little cost to you and major cost to him. Just don't expect to stop this with a 1/2 gate expo build.....and why should you? That's incredibly greedy.
|
On January 28 2011 04:43 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 04:09 Skyro wrote:
And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups.
I feel an immense amount of pressure in ZvP to prepare for a 4-gate until I see that my P opponent is specifically NOT doing it. Being caught without enough lings or roaches to at least buy enough time for further reinforcements is game ending. Even if you have the production and economy to outproduce P, there is a 10 second window in there where P can just walk straight through your base unless you completely stop drone production around 25 (some variants require cutting drones as early as 20) in order to bulk up your army just in case. This seems like pretty much the same thing and it sounds like you think 4-gate should be nerfed in general. Personally, it sounds fine to me, especially considering all the different variations of 4-gate that are possible. You have 3 units with completely different functions that can be created in different amounts to get the desired effect. 1 gas, 2 gas, pulling probes back off when the desired gas number is achieved. All small differences that should be easily noted by the informed viewer/player. And it's not like 4-gate is at a disadvantage against 4-gate.
I cannot speak on the perceived difficultly in stopping an optimal 4-gate as a zerg player as I do not play zerg. I am however highly skeptical that the extent one must go to to stop a 4-gate as a zerg player is close to that of a protoss player who does not 4-gate himself since any protoss player will tell you that there is a much smaller chance of to success to execute a 4-gate on a zerg player (or terran player for that matter) than a protoss player. I think this is also evidenced by the fact that there are still varied openers in PvZ and PvT even though there is the threat of a 4-gate, whereas in PvP there is much less variation (e.g. 4-gating is much more popular), which is the point I am arguing.
|
On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire.
I really think that you stopped those people because you're like 10x better. If someone of your level 4gated you, I don't know if you would stop it.
|
On January 28 2011 05:06 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 04:09 Skyro wrote:On January 28 2011 02:21 VelRa_G wrote:On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Why didn't people just listen to this and stop discussing? Because it wasn't a complete answer. The *easiest* way to stop an optimal 4-gate is to simply 4-gate yourself and IMO is the *only* way to stop it on maps like DQ and JB where you can warp-in through a backdoor. People who do not rationally think about a person's advice, even if from a credible source, is just as bad as people who ignore said advice. And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups. So rather than try to nitpick holes in the OP's arguement, or take one person's advice as gospel, see the OP is trying to say, reason things out for yourself, grab a practice partner and practice defending, then come back and contribute something meaningful. And AFAIK there is no way to use a single FF to prevent warp-ins up your ramp, contrary to what a lot of people are suggesting. The thing is...why would you want to stop that? Unless you are MAJORLY skimping on early units, you should be able to rape those units with sentries and zealots with almost no loss to yourself....they have to warp in directly under your fire. Then you have another ~30 seconds before the next group comes. And if you have enough sentries, then you can definitely FF your ramp and prolong this indefinitely for little cost to you and major cost to him. Just don't expect to stop this with a 1/2 gate expo build.....and why should you? That's incredibly greedy.
Your response seems to indicate a lack of experience defending optimal 4-gates. To be specific I'm talking about the one posted earlier in the thread w/ pictures, the 1 zealot 6 stalker variant with 4 more zealots as the second round of warp-ins. The easiest way to defend this actually 1 sentry, having any more is detrimental as more sentries will mean less firepower to kill the units warping in. Thus if you are doing an economical 4-gate you'd have 1 zealot 1 sentry 5 stalkers when his round of zealot warps-in. You hold position with your units in an arc around the top of your ramp and just FF his zealots as they warp-in. Once you kill this round of warp-ins with no/minimal losses you now have the unit advantage as you are now essentially 1 round of warp-ins ahead and have more or less successfully defended the 4-gate.
Also note the above defense is not possible on maps like DQ and JB due to being able to warp-in via your backdoor, or on Scrap due to the wide ramp. Thus on these maps it is required to defend 4-gate with your own 4-gate.
Also I never mentioned defending an optimal 4-gate with a 1 or 2 gate expo as obviously that is suicide. I have no idea where you got that from, but that in itself is an example of the point I'm trying to make. FE's are virtually non-existant in PvP, which is not true in the other PvX matchups.
As to what my proposed 'fix' would be, the only one I can think of that would not significantly disturb the balance of other matchups is not allowing pylons to warp above ground, or some sort of adjustment on the vision gained of the ramp from the bottom.
|
Has any one tested the idea of warping in pylons where the enemy would warp in their zealots? It would be a bad idea to use do this from the beginning IMO, but if you're quite sure they are four gating you, or they are in the process of it, you might as well IMO.
|
On January 28 2011 05:15 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 04:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 28 2011 04:09 Skyro wrote:
And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups.
I feel an immense amount of pressure in ZvP to prepare for a 4-gate until I see that my P opponent is specifically NOT doing it. Being caught without enough lings or roaches to at least buy enough time for further reinforcements is game ending. Even if you have the production and economy to outproduce P, there is a 10 second window in there where P can just walk straight through your base unless you completely stop drone production around 25 (some variants require cutting drones as early as 20) in order to bulk up your army just in case. This seems like pretty much the same thing and it sounds like you think 4-gate should be nerfed in general. Personally, it sounds fine to me, especially considering all the different variations of 4-gate that are possible. You have 3 units with completely different functions that can be created in different amounts to get the desired effect. 1 gas, 2 gas, pulling probes back off when the desired gas number is achieved. All small differences that should be easily noted by the informed viewer/player. And it's not like 4-gate is at a disadvantage against 4-gate. I cannot speak on the perceived difficultly in stopping an optimal 4-gate as a zerg player as I do not play zerg. I am however highly skeptical that the extent one must go to to stop a 4-gate as a zerg player is close to that of a protoss player who does not 4-gate himself since any protoss player will tell you that there is a much smaller chance of to success to execute a 4-gate on a zerg player (or terran player for that matter) than a protoss player. I think this is also evidenced by the fact that there are still varied openers in PvZ and PvT even though there is the threat of a 4-gate, whereas in PvP there is much less variation (e.g. 4-gating is much more popular), which is the point I am arguing.
It is the same effect in ZvP as it is in PvP. You are forced to stop worker production early and spend money on large amounts of combat units until you have eliminated the possibility of a 4-gate walking over you.
The biggest thing I am trying to point out is that just because you built 4 gateways doesn't mean you have to continue utilizing all those structures every CD available. If you wanted to go 3-gate robo, what stops you from throwing that robo down after the 4th gateway?
ZvZ has this same problem with early tech where getting too many roaches or drones and not enough lings can easily cost you the game if you're caught in the wrong positions. So you are forced to invest in a high number of lings and typically grab the speed upgrade as well for a unit you don't even plan on using in the long term. These lings (and their speed upgrade) don't become useless once you get past that point in the game, you utilize it in a different way later on (runby).
If you're not comfortable going 3 gate vs 4 gate, then fuck it, go 4 gate. Who says this means you can't transition into other builds?
|
you're just bad with FF
User was warned for this post
|
On January 28 2011 07:25 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 05:15 Skyro wrote:On January 28 2011 04:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 28 2011 04:09 Skyro wrote:
And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups.
I feel an immense amount of pressure in ZvP to prepare for a 4-gate until I see that my P opponent is specifically NOT doing it. Being caught without enough lings or roaches to at least buy enough time for further reinforcements is game ending. Even if you have the production and economy to outproduce P, there is a 10 second window in there where P can just walk straight through your base unless you completely stop drone production around 25 (some variants require cutting drones as early as 20) in order to bulk up your army just in case. This seems like pretty much the same thing and it sounds like you think 4-gate should be nerfed in general. Personally, it sounds fine to me, especially considering all the different variations of 4-gate that are possible. You have 3 units with completely different functions that can be created in different amounts to get the desired effect. 1 gas, 2 gas, pulling probes back off when the desired gas number is achieved. All small differences that should be easily noted by the informed viewer/player. And it's not like 4-gate is at a disadvantage against 4-gate. I cannot speak on the perceived difficultly in stopping an optimal 4-gate as a zerg player as I do not play zerg. I am however highly skeptical that the extent one must go to to stop a 4-gate as a zerg player is close to that of a protoss player who does not 4-gate himself since any protoss player will tell you that there is a much smaller chance of to success to execute a 4-gate on a zerg player (or terran player for that matter) than a protoss player. I think this is also evidenced by the fact that there are still varied openers in PvZ and PvT even though there is the threat of a 4-gate, whereas in PvP there is much less variation (e.g. 4-gating is much more popular), which is the point I am arguing. It is the same effect in ZvP as it is in PvP. You are forced to stop worker production early and spend money on large amounts of combat units until you have eliminated the possibility of a 4-gate walking over you. The biggest thing I am trying to point out is that just because you built 4 gateways doesn't mean you have to continue utilizing all those structures every CD available. If you wanted to go 3-gate robo, what stops you from throwing that robo down after the 4th gateway? ZvZ has this same problem with early tech where getting too many roaches or drones and not enough lings can easily cost you the game if you're caught in the wrong positions. So you are forced to invest in a high number of lings and typically grab the speed upgrade as well for a unit you don't even plan on using in the long term. These lings (and their speed upgrade) don't become useless once you get past that point in the game, you utilize it in a different way later on (runby). If you're not comfortable going 3 gate vs 4 gate, then fuck it, go 4 gate. Who says this means you can't transition into other builds?
It's much easier to defend a 4 gate as Zerg than it is as Protoss. Zerg can expand and still defend a 4 gate. Protoss certainly has to stay on 1 base. Were Zerg to stay on one base, they would easily be able to tech while defending a 4 gate. Protoss must stay on 1 base and will die if they try to tech before defending. Zerg has a wide variety of build orders that can successfully defend even the most aggressive 4 gates. Protoss has substantially one build that can successfully defend an all-in 4-gate, and that is a 4-gate with a few more probes.
4-gate puts a lot of pressure on its opponent, regardless of their race, but Protoss is the least equipped to defend it efficiently. Zerg has creep to make defending units more effective, easily accessible static defense that can be relocated so that it's useful later in the game, and in speedlings and roaches, has extremely cost-effective units in defense where they can engage in open fields, can flank, and don't have to deal with chokes or, to an extent, forcefields.
Terran has repairable, salvageable bunkers and high DPS ranged units that excel in defending chokes in the early game. In order to beat Terran with a 4 gate, Protoss has to cram zealots in a line up a ramp to attack limited surface area on a bunker while stalkers shoot away from the low ground with their crap DPS. Terran can defend a 4 gate while teching straight to cloaked banshees. It's pretty clear that Terran is well equipped to defend a 4 gate efficiently.
Meanwhile, the only thing giving the defender an advantage in PvP is the choke and forcefield. Because of the timing that the attack hits combined with the warp-up trick described in the OP, all the defender can do is split the army once or twice and make sure they have almost as many units. The other races have tactical options to defend 4 gate with a significantly less expensive army. In PvP, you just have to (nearly) match their army size.
|
There are plenty of ways to defeat a 4 gate. I beat it all the time without 4 gating myself. Learn to play better and stop whining about the game needing to be changed for your benefit.
|
On January 28 2011 07:25 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 05:15 Skyro wrote:On January 28 2011 04:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 28 2011 04:09 Skyro wrote:
And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups.
I feel an immense amount of pressure in ZvP to prepare for a 4-gate until I see that my P opponent is specifically NOT doing it. Being caught without enough lings or roaches to at least buy enough time for further reinforcements is game ending. Even if you have the production and economy to outproduce P, there is a 10 second window in there where P can just walk straight through your base unless you completely stop drone production around 25 (some variants require cutting drones as early as 20) in order to bulk up your army just in case. This seems like pretty much the same thing and it sounds like you think 4-gate should be nerfed in general. Personally, it sounds fine to me, especially considering all the different variations of 4-gate that are possible. You have 3 units with completely different functions that can be created in different amounts to get the desired effect. 1 gas, 2 gas, pulling probes back off when the desired gas number is achieved. All small differences that should be easily noted by the informed viewer/player. And it's not like 4-gate is at a disadvantage against 4-gate. I cannot speak on the perceived difficultly in stopping an optimal 4-gate as a zerg player as I do not play zerg. I am however highly skeptical that the extent one must go to to stop a 4-gate as a zerg player is close to that of a protoss player who does not 4-gate himself since any protoss player will tell you that there is a much smaller chance of to success to execute a 4-gate on a zerg player (or terran player for that matter) than a protoss player. I think this is also evidenced by the fact that there are still varied openers in PvZ and PvT even though there is the threat of a 4-gate, whereas in PvP there is much less variation (e.g. 4-gating is much more popular), which is the point I am arguing. It is the same effect in ZvP as it is in PvP. You are forced to stop worker production early and spend money on large amounts of combat units until you have eliminated the possibility of a 4-gate walking over you. The biggest thing I am trying to point out is that just because you built 4 gateways doesn't mean you have to continue utilizing all those structures every CD available. If you wanted to go 3-gate robo, what stops you from throwing that robo down after the 4th gateway? ZvZ has this same problem with early tech where getting too many roaches or drones and not enough lings can easily cost you the game if you're caught in the wrong positions. So you are forced to invest in a high number of lings and typically grab the speed upgrade as well for a unit you don't even plan on using in the long term. These lings (and their speed upgrade) don't become useless once you get past that point in the game, you utilize it in a different way later on (runby). If you're not comfortable going 3 gate vs 4 gate, then fuck it, go 4 gate. Who says this means you can't transition into other builds?
First of all if you're a zerg player then I fail how you can reasonably gauge the strength of an optimized 4-gate in PvP. And judging from some of the responses in this thread I doubt even most of the protoss players have dealt with an optimzed 4-gate at the timings indicated by the pictures. You are talking from a theoretical basis, but in reality you simply cannot stop a 4-gate on 3 of the maps in the current map pool w/o 4-gating yourself if it is properly executed. And on the other maps it is still quite difficult w/o 4-gating yourself, but possible since you're defending only 1 ramp.
So I cannot comment on how, if any, similarities exist b/w other mirrors (only high ranked random players could properly gauge this), I'm saying the degree which one must go to defend it is *very tight.* For example, it's so tight where people recommend not even getting your second gas until you hold it.
Or to put it another way that players of other races can understand, the crutch that allows protoss players to hold nearly all early aggression is sentries, but the pylon warping up ramps and/or through backdoors takes this away and you are forced to match his units more or less. We don't have creep, or queens, or the ability to store up larve or repair bunkers. You can hold it via cannons, but then that allows the 4-gater to contain and expand and still come up ahead. The simple fact that if you 4-gate (optimally) you either will win straight out or gain an advantage in every scenario outside of your opponent responding with his own slightly more economical 4-gate causes the matchup to NOT BE FUN. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold, I'm saying if your opponent is not kind enough to not 4-gate you, you are forced to 4-gate yourself unless you can severely outplay your opponent.
|
On January 28 2011 05:26 debasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. I really think that you stopped those people because you're like 10x better. If someone of your level 4gated you, I don't know if you would stop it.
its not like the pros 4gate half a minute faster than everyone else lol. an optimal 4gate is pretty simple to do. theres not exactly a lot of deviation someone could do in the situation that would make it any better
|
On January 28 2011 08:30 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 05:26 debasers wrote:On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. I really think that you stopped those people because you're like 10x better. If someone of your level 4gated you, I don't know if you would stop it. its not like the pros 4gate half a minute faster than everyone else lol. an optimal 4gate is pretty simple to do. theres not exactly a lot of deviation someone could do in the situation that would make it any better
You'd be surprised. From my experiences the differences b/w a diamond 4-gating and a master player 4-gating is actually quite significant. Even 10 seconds can make a huge difference in defending a 4-gate.
|
Honestly I don't think that countering a 4 gate with an econ 4 gate is bad, at all. As long as the super agressive 4 gate can be scouted in time, and the econ 4 gate gives you a good chance at beating it (and putting you ahead if he doesn't attack) then what's the problem? Counters do not have to necessarily exist solely in the realm of tech paths, they can also exist as a function of time.
|
After reading the whole thread, I think many people have one of the following problems:
-They make too many sentries (They do shit DPS, cant stop units warping in on top of the ramp)
-They just dont make enough units
Whenever I play PvP I scout all the fckin early game, as soon as I see a 4-gate or a suspicious probe (likely to make a proxy pylon) I immediately focus on making more units, particularly enough stalkers to hold. You can hold a 4-gate with a 2-gate robo if you make a couple immortals, and with 3-gate robo with a single immortal and enough gateway units, also remember the pylon which can warp-in on top of your ramp can usually be sniped by stalkers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
