EPTPvP , why 4gate is unstopable ? - Page 7
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
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letsroll
23 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Nony: You are awesome. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
On January 16 2011 23:10 emythrel wrote: surely you should be putting your FF on the ramp, not below it. your enemy has vision of the ramp, which means they can warp in on it. if you FF on the ramp they cannot warp in since the FF takes up the space. That way they have to get a zealot up the ramp first before they can warp in above the FF. we have a winner! this entire post was nullified from the start, so how is it still alive? =o | ||
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
http://starcraft2.fi/replay/lataa.php?id=1842 | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
Ill post a thread about it (this method and stopping the 4 gate) soon. | ||
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gr8ape
Canada302 Posts
On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. uuuh I bet if you 4 gated yourself you would lose (as in you would play vs a clone of yourself) | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
Why not just place 2 FF lower ramp and prevent any warp in of any kind? Then they can't do the trick. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On January 17 2011 04:57 Liquid`Tyler wrote: You shouldn't make more than 1 sentry imo. They are pretty weak in a fight and it should have energy for 2 force fields, and it only takes 1 force field to split his army, and 2 splits should be plenty. Against that particular 4gate build, I don't think you can mine from 2 gas. There are several ways to do 4gate and several ways to optimally counter. When you are facing this really aggressive, fastest possible 4gate, it's possible that the best counter is to 4gate yourself and wait for your opponent to come up your ramp. Then you're in the classic HuK vs kiwikaki situation from MLG 1, where everyone was like "kiwikaki why'd you go up his ramp" and he says "to attack dude" When I counter 4gate with 2gate robo, it's when I've scouted a 13gate opening and 2gas. When I scout 10gate and 1gas and saved chrono, I don't make a robo. It's really a danger when you say something like 4gate and think there's only way to do it. Isn't sort of obvious that when I mention 2 ways to stop it that they're for different variations? There's only ever one best way to stop something. The problem I have with defensive 4gating in response to a 10gate saved chrono is these offbeat builds like 10gate saved chrono into going 3gate stalker delayed robo while faking a 4gate push with a forward pylon and your stalkers. How do you tell the difference between that and a 10gate 4 gate? On January 28 2011 10:07 kcdc wrote: Has anyone (high masters) tried gas -> gate -> core -> robo -> gate to get a super fast immortal with some zealots and stalkers to support? With 4 chronoboosts, warpgate research finishes 100 seconds after the cyber core finishes, and with 2 chronoboosts, an immortal completes 90 seconds after the cyber core finishes. If you go gas before gateway, you have 200 gas at completion of cyber core (50 for warpgate research, 50 for stalker, 100 for robo). This will delay your gateway and therefore your warpgate research a bit, but you should still be able to get an immortal out before the timing hits. If you can survive the first wave, I'd imagine you could go immortal zealot with your reinforcements and hold pretty comfortably. Even it it holds a 4 gate seems super vulnerable to everything else no? I mean you get later tech, less minerals/units, nothing to help hold off cannon/2 gate rushes. | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
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Meteora.GB
Canada2479 Posts
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FrozenFrotie
Singapore156 Posts
Im a high masters in SEA server and currently PvP in SEA is pretty much 1 dimensional where everyone goes 20 probe 4 gate with 1 zealot 5 stalkers and try to warp in 4 additional stalkers up the ramp. I watched a TLO replay where he held it off with a 3 gate tech to dts. Some people didnt give it its due credit because the 4 gate came 1 minute late. However they failed to realize its because tlo tailored his build to counter 20 probe 4 gate almost perfectly. The general build order is: 11 chrono nexus 12 gate Chrono nexus again 14 gas 18 gas Cybercore Stop probe production chrono 1st stalker Build 2 gateways, but make sure to prioritize building the 2nd stalker Chrono 2nd stalker Add probes until there are 17 probes mining minerals and 6 on gas Use the rest of the chronos on warp gate tech Hunt for proxy pylons and probes - (at this point of time the opponent should be moving out with 1 zealot 1 stalker). Kite the zealot and snipe the stalker. Chase the zealot down back to his base. At this point of the game his will be forced to warp in stalkers in his base to defend against your 2 stalkers. Warp 2 sentries on top of ramp and retreat with the 2 stalkers. Build twilight council Build forge Build dark shrine Build 1-2 cannons. (Add stalkers and sentries to make sure you are safe between getting all of these buildings) Warp in dts and go straight for his probes - win The essential part to pull this off is good FF placement and micro of sentries. Honestly I find that not many people realize that FF'ing the top half of the ramp blocks vision of the top even when stalkers run up against it. (Unfortunately zealots and sentries which are smaller than stalkers can squeeze into the corner space of the hexagonal shape of the FF and steal some vision of the top of the ramp. But the opponent will take serious damage in the mean time as all of your army can hit them while only part of his army can hit back) The only way for the opponent to stop this is to go back to his base and get a robo facility for obs. In the mean time, you will already be ahead as you have your 2nd gas up and additional probe count. | ||
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MiKTeX
United States234 Posts
On January 28 2011 12:00 FrozenFrotie wrote: Honestly guys all sorts of 4 gates are stoppable, even the aggressive 20 probe one. It doesnt even require you to do the same build and win through micro. Im a high masters in SEA server and currently PvP in SEA is pretty much 1 dimensional where everyone goes 20 probe 4 gate with 1 zealot 5 stalkers and try to warp in 4 additional stalkers up the ramp. I watched a TLO replay where he held it off with a 3 gate tech to dts. Some people didnt give it its due credit because the 4 gate came 1 minute late. However they failed to realize its because tlo tailored his build to counter 20 probe 4 gate almost perfectly. The general build order is: 11 chrono nexus 12 gate Chrono nexus again 14 gas 18 gas Cybercore Stop probe production chrono 1st stalker Build 2 gateways, but make sure to prioritize building the 2nd stalker Chrono 2nd stalker Add probes until there are 17 probes mining minerals and 6 on gas Use the rest of the chronos on warp gate tech Hunt for proxy pylons and probes - (at this point of time the opponent should be moving out with 1 zealot 1 stalker). Kite the zealot and snipe the stalker. Chase the zealot down back to his base. At this point of the game his will be forced to warp in stalkers in his base to defend against your 2 stalkers. Warp 2 sentries on top of ramp and retreat with the 2 stalkers. Build twilight council Build forge Build dark shrine Build 1-2 cannons. (Add stalkers and sentries to make sure you are safe between getting all of these buildings) Warp in dts and go straight for his probes - win The essential part to pull this off is good FF placement and micro of sentries. Honestly I find that not many people realize that FF'ing the top half of the ramp blocks vision of the top even when stalkers run up against it. (Unfortunately zealots and sentries which are smaller than stalkers can squeeze into the corner space of the hexagonal shape of the FF and steal some vision of the top of the ramp. But the opponent will take serious damage in the mean time as all of your army can hit them while only part of his army can hit back) The only way for the opponent to stop this is to go back to his base and get a robo facility for obs. In the mean time, you will already be ahead as you have your 2nd gas up and additional probe count. so what happens when you go double gas after gate and he goes 2-3 gate robo? congratulations to the little one on figuring out a build order that specifically counters 4 gate, but i will stick to good forcefields to hold off a 4 gate | ||
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JeanLuc
Canada377 Posts
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KnowMe
Germany228 Posts
anyway... as its still allive ill try to answer some question with another wall of text  obviously everything is based on my experience and is for that reason extremely subjective yes 4gate is very strong in pvp because its easier to pull of than to defend. still theres no need to change anything about it, because it becomes a relatively weak build, if you know how to react. at the moment that might be true only for top players but that will change with time. actually 4gating every pvp you play should be a decent way to find out how to counter it, as you will start losing almost every game after a while and you should be able to figure out why you lose with it afterwards. ok... and heres what you can think about or try out or ignore etc. assuming that you are going for the most standard (afaik) no-rush fairly economical 12gate, you should scout after building your pylon at 9/10 to have a chance to defend 2proxyrax, canons etc. a sideeffect of that early scouting for cheese is, that you scout the possible 4gate early (hard but not impossible to make sure its coming before its actually there). 1 popular way to play the 4gate is the most aggressive 10gate with a lot of chronoboost safed up. this one is easily scouted (that gate is earlier than my gate and theres 60 energy on the nexus) and for that reason easy to counter in theory although its really really fast so you should never underestimate it. on the other hand it must be played with probecut at around 18 to be most effective and is basically a pure allin like a terran whos pulling all scvs. this means that you just have to defend it for a while so you wont (shouldnt) be able to lose anymore. theres a lot of ways to defend this build but the safest might be to react with 4gate because you just have to survive to be way ahead. -> as soon as you scout it, you start to save chronoboost yourself to get warpgates as soon as possible. also you should get some more probes than your oponent (=>20-22) but not too many. as your gate was later and u may have 1-2 less chronoboosts on your core you gonna have to stall some time. you can achieve that goal by killing of his pylonbuildingprobe or pushing with 1lot1stalker before he pushes or a forcefield or pulling some probes or or or... just make sure you gain some seconds. result a) your oponent was getting only some gas (i.e. 50, 100) to get the warpgate upgrade and possibly 1 stalker to warpin pure zealot (was known as the testerbuild for a while afair altough most decent protossplayers knew the build and there was a TL thread about it several weeks before tester played it on air :p ). he will be able to warpin 4 lots for quite some time and this can get messy as you have 3 probes mining gas (=> not more mins than he has) to get out stalkers and it takes quite some micro to defeat the lots and you will still lose some probes. as soon as the number of stalkers builds up while you make sure you dont lose every single probe, you will overwhealm him and win the game with the following push . result b) he was mining gas with 3 probes to warpin stalkers as well. he will also be able to do that way earlier than you so he will have more stalkers when he attacks and this is the part where you really have to buy time and to take every small advantage you can get. you can do that by rather building zealots and sentries before the warpgate upgrade finishes because u can afford more of those and zealots are really strong against stalkers if the map offers a slim baseentrance. else you can build all your buildings in very defensive positions so you dont lose any crucial pylons. stall some time with a forcefield and or get a small advantage by getting some shots of with your 2-3 stalkers of before he enters the base and pull 4-5 probes when you fight as far back as possible. he has to handle several problems now. 1) he needs to focusfire stalkers or hit&run the probes which costs micro=time. else he will lose the battle by losing some stalkershots on nearby gates or probes while losing his stalkers. 2) he needs to continue the warpin which is harder for him than for you because he has to scroll back 1 screen where is pylon is (which takes time). 3) it also takes his new forces more time to enter the battle than it takes your new stuff to be ready for it. 4) his economy is very weak and he wont be able to support 4 gates while you almost can (or at least you had more ressources safed up because you had 2-4 more workers for several minutes) in sum he basically loses too much time till you overwhealm him. at this point you killed more units than he did, have more probes and kill another 1-2 pylons which obviously means that you are way ahead. the other decent more economical and for that reason more enduring 4gate push following a 12 gate is not as obvious and for that reason harder to scout. still it should be executed with as much chronoboost as possible to be effective which means that you can often times either scout a lot of safed up nexusenergy or - as your scoutingprobe can stay in his base for quite some time - the core-chronoboosting itself. against this build you wont be 100% certain that a 4gate is coming (scouting after the first stalker is out is not impossible but really hard or depending on pure luck) but you also dont need 4 gates to defend it which is why you can deal with it as well. easy counters include 3 gates and some chronoboosts on your core. you will have almost as many units as you oponent has when he attacks so you can defend it as described by tyler by splitting up his army, hitting from high ground and or focussing the units that are warped in on the high ground. also you will have 1-2 phönix or immortals or an almost finished blinkupgrade or whatever you were teching to. time and a better fighting position guarantee your safety again and you win because you are ahead in tech. some more thoughts defending against 4gate often ends up in very microheavy confrontations. a single forcefield to split the army is really easy to do and so is shooting from high ground. as explained above the aggressive 10gate-style demands for specific very defensive reactions. in other cases of 4gating you start fights with the huge advantages mentioned above so you should be able to win a fight with 2-3 less units. as your tech is kicking in very soon to win the game for you, you can be very confident but make sure you arent overconfident. it is very very easy to lose an early pvp fight by having too few zealots (soak up a lot of dmg and kill stalkers pretty quickly) or too many zealots (getting outmicroed) even if you are in a better position. if you lose like that, it is not because 4gate is imbalanced using forcefields to split the army is only effective if you have enough stalkers. zealots are good against them but if you cant attack 1 half of his army with most of your army without getting hit by the other half of his army, theres no advantage. every other more economical 4gate is very safe against early agression but not dangerous to you. your oponent can transition into something else (i.e. blink) but its not an effective rush strategy and works in the usual stone paper scissors system (blinkstalkers lose to immortals if mana doesnt drag you into a basetrade etc. with the additional problem of having blink later with 4 than with 3 gate) exceptions!!! 1) jungle basin and delta quadrant (not an exception for 10gate if you dont try to defend that with pure sentry which is nonsense on these maps but a possibility on other maps without backdoor if you want to play with less than 3 gates... i think... and yes you need 2 forcefields for those ramps and theres nothing wrong with that. you dont have to be able to tech fast without any risks) defending a 12gate 4gate on these maps can be tricky but there are 2 rather simple solutions altough its obviously getting harder if you oponent has sick micro etc (nani?) a) blocking your backdoor (as whitera did) with buildings so you can snipe the intruders from that while they hit your wall. this can be very tricky especially if you have less than 3 gates as losing a blocking pylon can hurt pretty badly. b) scouting probe on backdoor area. as soon as units are warped in block your ramp with forcefields and kill the few warped in units. yehaw: you are far ahead 2) blistering sands actually i didnt play that many pvp games on that map but a really nice counter to 4gate is a ecoheavy 5gate as the ramp is easy to defend in the usual way and killing the backdoor takes quite some time so you will be able to kill of the intruding stalkermasses with 5gate sentry lot and a way stronger economy. it also creates a good oportunity to expand if the push is not coming. 3) scrap station might be the strongest map for 4gate (10gate is still pure allin) and should be defended by 4gate which makes it a pure micro battle (12 gate -> 4gate on both sides) with a slight advantage for the defender which is why this transitions into a mindgame pretty quickly: both sides dont want to attack with their 4gate into a 4gate so you may be able to squeeze in a double fast expand or something similar  | ||
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Adonisto
Canada191 Posts
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Tippany
United States765 Posts
On January 28 2011 10:07 kcdc wrote: Has anyone (high masters) tried gas -> gate -> core -> robo -> gate to get a super fast immortal with some zealots and stalkers to support? With 4 chronoboosts, warpgate research finishes 100 seconds after the cyber core finishes, and with 2 chronoboosts, an immortal completes 90 seconds after the cyber core finishes. If you go gas before gateway, you have 200 gas at completion of cyber core (50 for warpgate research, 50 for stalker, 100 for robo). This will delay your gateway and therefore your warpgate research a bit, but you should still be able to get an immortal out before the timing hits. If you can survive the first wave, I'd imagine you could go immortal zealot with your reinforcements and hold pretty comfortably. Haven't tried it but the more I think about the less I think it could work. I can't imagine one immortal and a few zealots being able to hold the sheer number of units from the 4gate. Like ogyp said, right before the six minute mark you're getting hit by 5 zealots and 6 stalkers. At most you could have 2 immortals and ~5 zealots? I'm not sure...But it's worth a try. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 28 2011 12:00 FrozenFrotie wrote: Honestly guys all sorts of 4 gates are stoppable, even the aggressive 20 probe one. It doesnt even require you to do the same build and win through micro. Im a high masters in SEA server and currently PvP in SEA is pretty much 1 dimensional where everyone goes 20 probe 4 gate with 1 zealot 5 stalkers and try to warp in 4 additional stalkers up the ramp. I watched a TLO replay where he held it off with a 3 gate tech to dts. Some people didnt give it its due credit because the 4 gate came 1 minute late. However they failed to realize its because tlo tailored his build to counter 20 probe 4 gate almost perfectly. The general build order is: 11 chrono nexus 12 gate Chrono nexus again 14 gas 18 gas Cybercore Stop probe production chrono 1st stalker Build 2 gateways, but make sure to prioritize building the 2nd stalker Chrono 2nd stalker Add probes until there are 17 probes mining minerals and 6 on gas Use the rest of the chronos on warp gate tech Hunt for proxy pylons and probes - (at this point of time the opponent should be moving out with 1 zealot 1 stalker). Kite the zealot and snipe the stalker. Chase the zealot down back to his base. At this point of the game his will be forced to warp in stalkers in his base to defend against your 2 stalkers. Warp 2 sentries on top of ramp and retreat with the 2 stalkers. Build twilight council Build forge Build dark shrine Build 1-2 cannons. (Add stalkers and sentries to make sure you are safe between getting all of these buildings) Warp in dts and go straight for his probes - win The essential part to pull this off is good FF placement and micro of sentries. Honestly I find that not many people realize that FF'ing the top half of the ramp blocks vision of the top even when stalkers run up against it. (Unfortunately zealots and sentries which are smaller than stalkers can squeeze into the corner space of the hexagonal shape of the FF and steal some vision of the top of the ramp. But the opponent will take serious damage in the mean time as all of your army can hit them while only part of his army can hit back) The only way for the opponent to stop this is to go back to his base and get a robo facility for obs. In the mean time, you will already be ahead as you have your 2nd gas up and additional probe count. Actually I think you missed the whole point of that game on why he was able to stop the 4-gate. The reason why he stopped it is he got a quick 2 stalkers to intercept the probe and zealot + stalker escort, which delayed the 4-gate enough so he could set up a proper defense. This is completely viable but relies on them not having a proxy pylon already in place (which is why you see TLO checking everywhere for a proxy pylon before going to intercept the escort), and you actually being able to intercept the escort (easier on some maps than others obviously). | ||
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aztrorisk
United States896 Posts
and I go 3 gate robo/stargate vs toss | ||
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