|
On January 16 2011 23:39 Markwerf wrote:
This trick is ages old.
Sure it is easy for P to force themselves onto a ramp through a forcefield. Besides this trick there is also the hallucinated colossus (tramples the forcefields) and the blink stalker rush..
ive never seen this before today (the ramp is perfectly forcefielded and yet you can get vision up there)
vs blink you have atleast 2 ff spots on your ramp that block vision perfectly
halu colo doesnt trample FF
i agree with the rest though
|
You can probably stop that pylon warp in too? I just don't see how it is so unbeatable even in PvP, I mean it is strong but with a 3 gate into robo you can easily get ahead. Good forcefields and unit control.
|
On January 16 2011 23:10 emythrel wrote:
surely you should be putting your FF on the ramp, not below it. your enemy has vision of the ramp, which means they can warp in on it. if you FF on the ramp they cannot warp in since the FF takes up the space. That way they have to get a zealot up the ramp first before they can warp in above the FF.
This.
|
I don't get how warping in units is going to be good, I mean they just warp in right in front of your army and die before they even get to attack, just go for a couple of stalkers and some zealots and not that much sentries and you should be fine on 3 gates imo.
|
Australia8532 Posts
Ignoring the ways you can defend a 4gate which have already been listed in this thread..
How is this a glitch?
Units get warped in within a power field of a pylon.. that pylon happens to be in range of your ramp; why can't you forcefield to split the army? or FF higher up the ramp so any warp in can be sniped..
This is no glitch; just a QQ .. i cant find the thread but it was posted in the strategy section i think
|
On January 17 2011 04:57 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 04:32 oygp wrote:Master's league protoss player here, and I agree with Crappy (OP) that a perfectly executed 4 warpgate rush in PvP ( attack with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers at 5:50 with an immediate additional 4 zealot warp in on high ground in your opponent's base with pylon(s) on the low ground right outside your opponent's base) has been basically unstoppable with anything less than 4 gates in my experience. At 5:50 game time, your opponent has AT MOST 2 or 3 sentries out... which is NOT ENOUGH to forcefield the ramp long enough to survive. When the forcefields run out, which they ALWAYS do, you simply walk up with your stalker and zealot-heavy group of units and ignore the sentries which at this point can only tickle the zealots and stalkers.. IMO, the vast majority of the lower level players on this thread have little experience with a perfectly executed 4 warpgate rush and are underestimating it's raw power and speed. Even most Masters protoss players, including myself, are not sure exactly how to hold off the 4 warpgate rush in PvP. It can be very difficult even if you are defending with 4 gates yourself, (as Naniwa did vs White-Ra just recently? I would like to see a VOD link if anyone has it!) Below is a series of images from a game between me and another Master's league protoss player. He was about 10 seconds late with his warpgate tech, and failed to cut probes... and you see the consequences. Which brings me back to the OP's question, what can stop the 4 gate rush in PvP besides 4 gate? I would love to see how it can be blocked with 3 gates, but 2 gate robo as suggested by LiquidTyler? I just don't see how that is possible... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JjckW.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0U4Gi.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AbSbu.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TBDJU.jpg) You shouldn't make more than 1 sentry imo. They are pretty weak in a fight and it should have energy for 2 force fields, and it only takes 1 force field to split his army, and 2 splits should be plenty. Against that particular 4gate build, I don't think you can mine from 2 gas. There are several ways to do 4gate and several ways to optimally counter. When you are facing this really aggressive, fastest possible 4gate, it's possible that the best counter is to 4gate yourself and wait for your opponent to come up your ramp. Then you're in the classic HuK vs kiwikaki situation from MLG 1, where everyone was like "kiwikaki why'd you go up his ramp" and he says "to attack dude" When I counter 4gate with 2gate robo, it's when I've scouted a 13gate opening and 2gas. When I scout 10gate and 1gas and saved chrono, I don't make a robo. It's really a danger when you say something like 4gate and think there's only way to do it. Isn't sort of obvious that when I mention 2 ways to stop it that they're for different variations? There's only ever one best way to stop something.
So, is going 4 gates yourself the best way to stop a 1-gas 4 gate?
|
On January 17 2011 08:07 rebdomine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 04:57 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On January 17 2011 04:32 oygp wrote:Master's league protoss player here, and I agree with Crappy (OP) that a perfectly executed 4 warpgate rush in PvP ( attack with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers at 5:50 with an immediate additional 4 zealot warp in on high ground in your opponent's base with pylon(s) on the low ground right outside your opponent's base) has been basically unstoppable with anything less than 4 gates in my experience. At 5:50 game time, your opponent has AT MOST 2 or 3 sentries out... which is NOT ENOUGH to forcefield the ramp long enough to survive. When the forcefields run out, which they ALWAYS do, you simply walk up with your stalker and zealot-heavy group of units and ignore the sentries which at this point can only tickle the zealots and stalkers.. IMO, the vast majority of the lower level players on this thread have little experience with a perfectly executed 4 warpgate rush and are underestimating it's raw power and speed. Even most Masters protoss players, including myself, are not sure exactly how to hold off the 4 warpgate rush in PvP. It can be very difficult even if you are defending with 4 gates yourself, (as Naniwa did vs White-Ra just recently? I would like to see a VOD link if anyone has it!) Below is a series of images from a game between me and another Master's league protoss player. He was about 10 seconds late with his warpgate tech, and failed to cut probes... and you see the consequences. Which brings me back to the OP's question, what can stop the 4 gate rush in PvP besides 4 gate? I would love to see how it can be blocked with 3 gates, but 2 gate robo as suggested by LiquidTyler? I just don't see how that is possible... You shouldn't make more than 1 sentry imo. They are pretty weak in a fight and it should have energy for 2 force fields, and it only takes 1 force field to split his army, and 2 splits should be plenty. Against that particular 4gate build, I don't think you can mine from 2 gas. There are several ways to do 4gate and several ways to optimally counter. When you are facing this really aggressive, fastest possible 4gate, it's possible that the best counter is to 4gate yourself and wait for your opponent to come up your ramp. Then you're in the classic HuK vs kiwikaki situation from MLG 1, where everyone was like "kiwikaki why'd you go up his ramp" and he says "to attack dude" When I counter 4gate with 2gate robo, it's when I've scouted a 13gate opening and 2gas. When I scout 10gate and 1gas and saved chrono, I don't make a robo. It's really a danger when you say something like 4gate and think there's only way to do it. Isn't sort of obvious that when I mention 2 ways to stop it that they're for different variations? There's only ever one best way to stop something. So, is going 4 gates yourself the best way to stop a 1-gas 4 gate?
Yes. You should be able to scout this is what hes planning, and then you can counter with a more economical fourgate and use your defender advantage to win.
|
On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire.
Why didn't people just listen to this and stop discussing?
|
On January 28 2011 02:21 VelRa_G wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Why didn't people just listen to this and stop discussing?
Truth be told, its the answer for stopping pretty much all big 1 base pushes as protoss - have good forcefields or lose. Maybe thats a little too general a statement, but I think it does pretty much apply to my experience. When I get pushed big early, if I have good defensive forcefields, I win the game, if I don't I lose the game.
|
I watched the HungUn vs Anypro (code S up/down matches) and it was 4-gate vs 4-gate. I wanted to claw my eyes out. Luckily, I play terran and the TvT mirror is not too bad.
|
How do you lose to this unless you have NOTHING but sentries? His units warping in take tons of unanswered damage, and as long as you have a zealot per warping in unit, you'll rape him. And it's not like it prevents you from dropping more FF. Sure, it provides the attacker a way to fight perfect FFs, but it hardly breaks a FF defense.
|
Actually, I'm glad the discussion went on so Tyler could clarify between the two types of responses that you can have. Otherwise we would all just say "2gate robo and 3gate stargate counter 4gate!" when in reality, there are times when 4gating is your best response.
@Tyler - Out of curiosity, when do you prefer going 3gate stargate over 4gate/2gate robo? It seems as though you said robo > 13gate and 2 gas while 4gate is the best option against 10gate with 1 gas.
|
On January 17 2011 04:04 mutantmagnet wrote:
4 Gate is can be deflected but it doesn't help matters much that warpgating emphasizes offense over defense in PvP and the situation will get worse as maps get bigger.
I think it should be considered to revise build timings so warpgate trained units don't train faster than gateway trained units as it currently happens right now.
I actually really really like that change. Doubt it'll ever happen, lol!
|
On January 28 2011 03:44 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 04:04 mutantmagnet wrote:
4 Gate is can be deflected but it doesn't help matters much that warpgating emphasizes offense over defense in PvP and the situation will get worse as maps get bigger.
I think it should be considered to revise build timings so warpgate trained units don't train faster than gateway trained units as it currently happens right now. I actually really really like that change. Doubt it'll ever happen, lol!
You realize for warping in it's the same (there's a warp-in time), the big difference is the queue cycles faster essentially. So if you can get one unit out in x time, you can get n units out in x*n - 5(n-1) time. It matters, but it's not as big as you think, and I'm primarily a zerg user.
Edit:
Also, why the hell is there an option to make a warpgate back into a gateway? I don't think I've ever once seen this used and can't think of any reason why you would want it. The only possible scenario (and this is REALLY contrived) is some kind of base trade where you have your only pylon's entire field blocked by buildings so you can get units out?
|
On January 28 2011 02:21 VelRa_G wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Why didn't people just listen to this and stop discussing?
Because it is one of those general answers that we already "know". Yes, by splitting his army with forcefield we can win with fewer numbers. I think we all know that. I think many of us have beaten 4gates with 2gate robo before by doing that, and we have also lost to 4gates with 2gate robo many times.
So to many of us, Tyler says an answer like that and it doesn't really help us or give us any insight. Most top Koreans are still using their own 4gate to stop opposing 4gates. You would think that if 2gate robo is such a great counter to 4gate, they might actually use it and successfully defend 4gates in PvP...but it seems very very rare to see, thus it must be more difficult to hold off 4gates with 2gate robo for them. Clearly they believe that using their own 4gate is a superior response.
|
On January 17 2011 04:57 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
You shouldn't make more than 1 sentry imo. They are pretty weak in a fight and it should have energy for 2 force fields, and it only takes 1 force field to split his army, and 2 splits should be plenty. Against that particular 4gate build, I don't think you can mine from 2 gas. There are several ways to do 4gate and several ways to optimally counter. When you are facing this really aggressive, fastest possible 4gate, it's possible that the best counter is to 4gate yourself and wait for your opponent to come up your ramp. Then you're in the classic HuK vs kiwikaki situation from MLG 1, where everyone was like "kiwikaki why'd you go up his ramp" and he says "to attack dude"
When I counter 4gate with 2gate robo, it's when I've scouted a 13gate opening and 2gas. When I scout 10gate and 1gas and saved chrono, I don't make a robo. It's really a danger when you say something like 4gate and think there's only way to do it. Isn't sort of obvious that when I mention 2 ways to stop it that they're for different variations? There's only ever one best way to stop something.
Just curious, how do your responses change with a wide ramp like on Scrap Station and, to an extent, Blistering Sands? If you scout signs of a softer 4 gate (13 gate, not cutting probes until your scout is denied, with or without 2nd gas), would you build sentries at all or just rely on getting an immortal really quickly with enough zealots/stalkers in support?
|
On January 28 2011 03:49 skipdog172 wrote:
You would think that if 2gate robo is such a great counter to 4gate, they might actually use it and successfully defend 4gates in PvP...but it seems very very rare to see, thus it must be more difficult to hold off 4gates with 2gate robo for them. Clearly they believe that using their own 4gate is a superior response.
I think what this comes down to is that the defenders advantage vs. a 4gate is severely diminished. Forcefields help restore some of it, and when my forcefields are ideal, as I said, I hold it off, but there sometimes literally 0 margin for error, one forcefield off by just a little can lose you the game. I suspect countering with another 4gate greatly reduces the need for that kind of perfection, and lets you keep more of the defenders advantage by being a little more aggressive (ironically), and keeping the fight on your terms instead of his.
Bottom line is I think people are looking for "the" build that counters 4gate, and there really isn't one you can go that feels super safe against it just in terms of pure build order, you NEED good micro to win from my experience, you just need less perfect micro to win with a 4gate of your own, and since it is probably a bit more delayed than his, you hope you can hold it off with the slightly delayed units and then take the advantage of having more probes. There is no 100% way to "beat" the 4gate just by building the correct combination of buildings, that I can see, and I think this thread has gone on for so long because people really REALLY want there to be. On the flip side, there are a number of builds which the 4gate can beat on pure build order, which is why it feels quite frustrating sometimes.
Disclaimer: just my opinion.
|
Supposed the protoss comes at you with his 5 stalkers and warps in 4 zealots up ramp? Even if you are NOT 4gating, you should be able to handle 4 zealots that are immobilized for 5 seconds with your standing army. I don't understand all the whining tbh. Just get ranged units and stay clear of the enemy's stalkers as much as possible
|
On January 28 2011 02:21 VelRa_G wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Why didn't people just listen to this and stop discussing?
Because it wasn't a complete answer. The *easiest* way to stop an optimal 4-gate is to simply 4-gate yourself and IMO is the *only* way to stop it on maps like DQ and JB where you can warp-in through a backdoor. People who do not rationally think about a person's advice, even if from a credible source, is just as bad as people who ignore said advice.
And that is the crux of the OP's arguement, and I agree w/ him. On particular maps you have to 4-gate to stop an optimal 4-gate, and to stop it on other maps using a build w/ less gates requires much more precision and micro than the attacking player. This cripples the current matchup by limiting the possible openers you can use to a point that reduces the variation (and IMO, the fun) out of the matchup early to midgame, to an extent that I do not believe was intended by Blizzard because it is not present in any other PvX matchups.
So rather than try to nitpick holes in the OP's arguement, or take one person's advice as gospel, see the OP is trying to say, reason things out for yourself, grab a practice partner and practice defending, then come back and contribute something meaningful.
And AFAIK there is no way to use a single FF to prevent warp-ins up your ramp, contrary to what a lot of people are suggesting.
|
anyone have the exact BO for executing this super aggressive 4 gate? 10 gate then?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
