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On January 13 2011 08:08 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:48 roymarthyup wrote:
[A lot of stuff, really. Sadly... ] ... you're theorycrafting, and that's not what is needed here. One problem I see with adding thors though (apart from satisfying OP to the point that he basically called all but one of us morons) is the reduced mobility of the army, while phoenix on the contrary add some harassment possibilities for the protoss. They are also quite a good choice in that they'll be able to patrol drop routes effectively, reducing the amount of pressure a Terran can deal in the hands of a good Protoss. To be honest I'm not really expecting thors to have a lot of success, except in case of focus fire from the phoenixes. Well, that means they can be a deterrent for gravitron beam, which is not bad at all, but... I just can't help but think they'll be helpful, but not much more than that. Do you suggest it based upon testing/experience, cArn-? As I haven't run into mass phoenix play still, I wouldn't be against some feedback about how well do thors fare, actually. Also, OP (yep, you, Touch) still didn't say if he is talking about a lategame army composition, or an earlier style of play. Did you run into builds tailored about getting that composition from midgame onwards? I'm more of a banshee user myself, and even though I don't think them to be weaker now in direct confrontation (well, cloak and obs sniping is still "advised", of course), they don't have an unlimited supply of energy and I'm more concerned about early phoenix play that would disrupt you with harass while you move on the map. I don't think I'll be able to use them lategame if there are phoenixes, what with colossi/storms not making marines an option.
I couldn't really test it a lot cause I didn't encounter that very often, but the few times I did it really seemed to be the best answer, once you get around 3 or 4 thors phoenixes are having a very bad time. But then again yeah, you really need to have good control, micro plays a huge part in this.
Also the reason it seems to work quite well is that Thors are good anyway TvP in any situation, not like vikings which become useless once P have no more colossi and switch to templars or whatever.
Only problem you need a huge economy (3base+) , but so does P to have colossi + phoenixes with enough gateway units to be a threat
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Hello, from experience as a Protoss player who loves pheonix and often mixes them with collosis the answer is marauders. Yeah, just like how it was played in beta... Drewbie and Select still use the style alot, basically you keep hitting and running, but running into the collosis and sniping them all. I sacrifice a big chunk of my army to air, which lifting isn't extremely useful.
I haven't tried mixing in the ghosts, seems like a potent combination though. The standard way you deal with collosis + zealot/stalker is still totally viable however, the Protoss army is just slightly more cost efficient, but with good positioning totally viable.
Tanks can be alright in TvP, IMO they are pretty stupid to use in larger numbers, almost as bad as the Thor suggestion. Maybe thors seem good on paper, but the only thing they are actually okay against is Templar builds, still you're very hindered by their mobility. Just one or two immortals wreck thors, not to mention they'll eat up all your gas so you can't get vikings. Just ugh, filter out the bad advice.
Sauron Terran does seem the way to go, obviously at your level you know how to engage collosis, and since I play Protoss, I feel pretty safe once I get 8 or so, so add constant pressure, and keep sniping them at all costs, there's a really deadly timing where Im massing my air and ny ground lacks gateway units to defend collosis, perfect time to attack then.
As the game drags on you'll be getting farther and farther behind because those pheonix numbers will kill building up, however the one advantage this build has, is it really contains my collosis and forces me to stay in a choke, giving you time to get lots of expansions. Hope that helps.
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Touch, you are a dick. And this thread starts out whining as you break rule after rule for the strat forums. Namely, not insulting players who give advice and generally being a difficult person for no apparent reason other than unjustified elitism.
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
These army compositions can go either way depending on a few simple factors. Upgrades, food count and micro.
If you're being out upgraded badly you'll lose to the colossus melting your army no matter how quickly you snipe them.
If you're being out macro'd, well that's simple enough.
As for micro, you need to exploit the 9 range of your vikings. Pick off any phoenix and get any free colossus shots you can manage. With the longer range on the vikings you should be able to take potshots before any engagements by simply retreating to the marines. Also, as many players have said get a thor.
One thor and/or ghosts really decimate phoenix play.
Again, you don't want theorycrafting but there's no way to tell in your situation since there are no replays and yet you claim to lose to this a lot.
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Its difficult to beat. Rush out thors, then spamm hellions and then ultimatlely get siege tanks last.
While spamming thors get a few vikings on top of your thor and keep expanding.
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On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
Then what are Hellions?
I mean, if thors are t3, they require an armory after factory, vikings require a starport after factory, surely thors and vikings are then the same tier?
Seems only logical to me that Terran has a t4 as the only race? At least:
t1: Marines
t1.2, marauders, reapers
t2: hellions, ghosts
t2.5: siege tanks
t3: thors, vikings, medivacs
t3.5, banshees, ravens
t4 battle cruisers
I think this whole tier is pretty silly by the way, it's pretty obvious that the tech path of different races is too dissimilar to make such a comparison. I mean, no one has ever rushed to ultras, why? Because you need to go pool -> lair -> pit -> hive > cavern to get there. Thors is baracks -> factory -> armory. You create a tech lab while you make the armory. Colossus is gate -> core -> robo -> bay. And supposedly all are 'tier three'.
But hey, technically zerg doesn't need to get an overlord to arrive on the carvern eh. :')
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On January 13 2011 16:08 Skillz_Man wrote:
Hello, from experience as a Protoss player who loves pheonix and often mixes them with collosis the answer is marauders. Yeah, just like how it was played in beta... Drewbie and Select still use the style alot, basically you keep hitting and running, but running into the collosis and sniping them all. I sacrifice a big chunk of my army to air, which lifting isn't extremely useful.
I see how you'd want to simply "outground" the protoss, but isn't running into the colossi hard to do since zealots are used as mineral dumps and meatwalls ?
I'd fear that if my lead isn't significant enough after the battle (or the position favorable, for example near his expand to follow into some probe killing), the lack of antiair will allow the phoenixes to finish off/slow the army, or pick up the reinforcements. As you're putting it yourself, "As the game drags on you'll be getting farther and farther behind because those pheonix numbers will keep building up".
This, or I guess what you're suggesting is to mass marauders to outmacro the P's ground army and kill the colossi, buying time to expand and get a sufficient lead to smash him definitively before he can get his colossi count back?
On January 13 2011 16:02 cArn- wrote:
I couldn't really test it a lot cause I didn't encounter that very often, but the few times I did it really seemed to be the best answer, once you get around 3 or 4 thors phoenixes are having a very bad time. But then again yeah, you really need to have good control, micro plays a huge part in this.
Also the reason it seems to work quite well is that Thors are good anyway TvP in any situation, not like vikings which become useless once P have no more colossi and switch to templars or whatever.
Only problem you need a huge economy (3base+) , but so does P to have colossi + phoenixes with enough gateway units to be a threat
Thanks for the input. I was sceptical about using thors against a mix including lots of zealots, but it feels like positioning, taking potshots and using superior range to avoid too much commitment is key in this case. Well, I'll see how it'll go if I meet this on ladder. 
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On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Touch, you are a dick. And this thread starts out whining as you break rule after rule for the strat forums. Namely, not insulting players who give advice and generally being a difficult person for no apparent reason other than unjustified elitism.
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
These army compositions can go either way depending on a few simple factors. Upgrades, food count and micro.
If you're being out upgraded badly you'll lose to the colossus melting your army no matter how quickly you snipe them.
If you're being out macro'd, well that's simple enough.
As for micro, you need to exploit the 9 range of your vikings. Pick off any phoenix and get any free colossus shots you can manage. With the longer range on the vikings you should be able to take potshots before any engagements by simply retreating to the marines. Also, as many players have said get a thor.
One thor and/or ghosts really decimate phoenix play.
Again, you don't want theorycrafting but there's no way to tell in your situation since there are no replays and yet you claim to lose to this a lot. If I'm a dick, then I ask you to reposition your head somewhere else except between my legs. I don't wanna read useless text from players who have nothing to offer.
http://www.filefront.com/17788347/Metalopolis (4).SC2Replay
Here's the replay, for everyone else, not you 
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Just got absolutely crushed the other day versus this.
Granted, I was a bit out of position on steppes and fought near a ramp and got Forcefielded. But I had about 15 Vikings and still failed to take down more than 3 out of 5 Colossus.
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Phoenix are only effective in small numbers (read: less than 10), and usually you get them after you already have 3-4 colossi. They absolutely destroy any terran 1 reactor starport build, and nullify the army advantage terran is supposed to have in the midgame, making a lot of terran players struggle, as they choose to attack instead of defend (and it's very easy to get a great arc on the colossi/phoenix/zealot ball because of limited forcefields).
But phoenixes are only a midgame force, as they are very weak against any army that has ghosts and thors in it. Absolutely do get thors if protoss is overmaking them.
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On February 15 2011 04:52 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote:
Phoenix are only effective in small numbers (read: less than 10), and usually you get them after you already have 3-4 colossi. They absolutely destroy any terran 1 reactor starport build, and nullify the army advantage terran is supposed to have in the midgame, making a lot of terran players struggle, as they choose to attack instead of defend (and it's very easy to get a great arc on the colossi/phoenix/zealot ball because of limited forcefields).
But phoenixes are only a midgame force, as they are very weak against any army that has ghosts and thors in it. Absolutely do get thors if protoss is overmaking them.
Phoenixes can actually lift up ghosts and quickly focus-fire them down. For thors, you're correct though. All protoss has to do though is chrono out immortals from his pre-existing robos.
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There are always 2 sides to every strategy: pro and con. Good thing about Phoenix/Colossus is that it is ridiculously hard to stop. The bad parts are that it can only happen later stage of the game and it costs a ton amount of money.
I'll explain how this build is very hard to get to.
First, obvious one: Money
I do know that phoenix takes less time to build after the recent patch but it still cost the same amount of money. Furthermore, Colossus is the most expensive unit on the ground + the range upgrade. If a protoss rushes for this build, Terran will bring marines and marauders to kill almost everything. If protoss builds an army and then make the Colossus, you are not making anything new. You are making every day protoss ball.
Second, most important one: transition
Transition is probably one of the easiest yet the most important thing that can win you the game. If a protoss goes for the colossus, he should stay with the robo tech for a while. If a protoss goes for stargate, he should stay with stargate for while. Reason for staying with one tech tree is to maximize your army.
Here is an example, core unit vs. colossus
If you only stay with only gateway units, you will have about 6 zealots and 3 stalkers more units than protoss whom goes for the colossus.
The teching up means you are getting stronger units for the money that you pay yet, it also means that your army will be small.
Thus, having 2 major tech tree in the early phase of the game will endanger your game as protoss.
Lastly, the important concept of colossus.
Colossus is NOT a fighting unit, it is the siege tank of the protoss. It is combat supporting unit. Meaning that Colossus is EXTREMELY weak when it is not guarded with Zealots and stalkers.
So enough with how this build sucks, let's talk about how awesome this build is.
What kills phoenix? Marines
What melt away Marines? 2~3 Colossus
What kills colossus? Vikings, tanks, and marauders
Viking: Get destroyed with mass phoenix
Tank: Gets lifted by Phoenix
Marauder: Zealots tanks the damage and forcefield will buy enough time to kill marauders
So basically this mix will almost always win against average terrans. It is just TOO hard to get to
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On January 13 2011 00:17 Touch wrote:
Yeah, that shit is gay.
It's usually 2 Robo Colossus, one Stargate throwing out Phoenixes with the improved creation time, and the excess minerals is used in making Zealots for meat shield.
I can't imagine the usual MMM/Viking ever being able to work against this anymore, as it takes forever for the Vikings kill the Phoenixes, even IF you have air superiority. Zealots take too long to kill, but Colossus will wipe out the ground army
How are you guys dealing with this? If you really want replay, I'll post one, but I'm sure you guys have faced this often enough to know exactly what I'm talking about.
(Don't bother replying to this if your less than 2.8k Diamond or Masters, no point in baseless theorycraft)
Well i can tell you what i know works, as a protoss player i feel like thors are a really underutalized unit. First they do AoE splash dmg to light, allowing them to be rather effective. Also the thors serve a dual purpose because with proper positioning they really do eat the colossi splash. so maybe get like 2-3 thors with your standard unit combonation. i mean phoenix colossi was made to counter mmmv so unless you are better you will find it to be incredibly difficult. Also i am not sure but i think if you could emp the phoenix that could work too, or maybe a mix.
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On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Touch, you are a dick. And this thread starts out whining as you break rule after rule for the strat forums. Namely, not insulting players who give advice and generally being a difficult person for no apparent reason other than unjustified elitism.
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
These army compositions can go either way depending on a few simple factors. Upgrades, food count and micro.
If you're being out upgraded badly you'll lose to the colossus melting your army no matter how quickly you snipe them.
If you're being out macro'd, well that's simple enough.
As for micro, you need to exploit the 9 range of your vikings. Pick off any phoenix and get any free colossus shots you can manage. With the longer range on the vikings you should be able to take potshots before any engagements by simply retreating to the marines. Also, as many players have said get a thor.
One thor and/or ghosts really decimate phoenix play.
Again, you don't want theorycrafting but there's no way to tell in your situation since there are no replays and yet you claim to lose to this a lot.
i said pretty much the same thing, i just hope he reads one of ours. ^_^ good post
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On January 13 2011 16:18 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
Then what are Hellions? I mean, if thors are t3, they require an armory after factory, vikings require a starport after factory, surely thors and vikings are then the same tier? Seems only logical to me that Terran has a t4 as the only race? At least: t1: Marines t1.2, marauders, reapers t2: hellions, ghosts t2.5: siege tanks t3: thors, vikings, medivacs t3.5, banshees, ravens t4 battle cruisers I think this whole tier is pretty silly by the way, it's pretty obvious that the tech path of different races is too dissimilar to make such a comparison. I mean, no one has ever rushed to ultras, why? Because you need to go pool -> lair -> pit -> hive > cavern to get there. Thors is baracks -> factory -> armory. You create a tech lab while you make the armory. Colossus is gate -> core -> robo -> bay. And supposedly all are 'tier three'. But hey, technically zerg doesn't need to get an overlord to arrive on the carvern eh. :')
Medivacs and vikings are not t3... they are t1.5 or t2 at the best....
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Mech demolishes colossus phoenix, if only more terrans would realize the strenght of mech and know when it is time to transition out of mm.. Much like protoss transitions from robo into twi/templar tech but yes, kite the zealots and stay out of colossus range while you focus fire ze colu with vikings, just make sure to kill the col asap because phoenix wont make much of a difference once they are dead.
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The best way to fight it is to just mass a shitload of vikings and keep around 1 or 2 thor with your army.
Vikings are about cost even against phoenix. It is important to focus the colossi first though as they are the real threat and vikings and phoenix don't deal much damage against eachother anyway (no bonusses). If you kill all colossi you have absolutely no problem dealing with the phoenix even if all your marines died as you simply have 1 or 2 thor around.
It is always important to upgrade air armor when you fight vs mass phoenix as T. Phoenix go from 10 to 8 damage a volley against vikings if you get an armor upg. They will often get an air attack upgrade as it's cheap and they got cyber anyway so you absolutely have to respond with air armor, that way you can ignore phoenixes much easier for a while as you are focussing the colossi.
Armor upgrade level 2 generally gives you an edge in the viking vs phoenix fight as Terran can easily get that whereas protoss needs the rediculously expensive fleet beacon if they want to get air attack level 2 to compensate.
Don't bother upgrading air attack, it is a pathetic upgrade that only gives your vikings 15 dmg vs colossi instead of 14.
Also mech is indeed a very favorable composition against phoenix colossus. If you haven't started upgrading your bio I would indeed suggest to switch into it or go with it more. However I wouldn't switch if you already committed to bio, ie you made tons of barracks and got infantry upgrades already. Mech is better then bio vs this composition but it isn't worth sacrificing all your initial investments for as factories etc are very expensive.
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lol So many silly suggestions here.
To start off, 250 mm cannons are USELESS versus colossus, you will never, ever be able to get inside the 7 range required to do it since colossus have 9 range, and move much faster, not to mention your Thors will all pile up and take even more splash from colossus. 250 mm cannon's only use is against immortals.
Siege tanks are also a terrible suggestion, because they don't get good until you have a shitton of them, and have them positioned properly, not to mention they get pooped on by colossus, immortal AND zealots pretty hard.
MM+Viking doesn't really work past 3 Colossus, because the colossus will kill your marauders before they die to Vikings. Maybe if you have godly micro like Nada or Boxer you can make it work all game long, but MM+Viking will generally get rolled over in large supply (150+) battles.
The only real way to beat this composition is Mech with a touch of bio maybe. Thors and Vikings are your key units, fill in marines/marauders/hellions for mineral dump or something. Thors tend to destroy everything except colossus (using 250 mm cannons on immortals) so all you need to worry about is having enough vikings.
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Back to the thread, I never ever gg. :D
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EPT
