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Yeah, that shit is gay.
It's usually 2 Robo Colossus, one Stargate throwing out Phoenixes with the improved creation time, and the excess minerals is used in making Zealots for meat shield.
I can't imagine the usual MMM/Viking ever being able to work against this anymore, as it takes forever for the Vikings kill the Phoenixes, even IF you have air superiority. Zealots take too long to kill, but Colossus will wipe out the ground army
How are you guys dealing with this? If you really want replay, I'll post one, but I'm sure you guys have faced this often enough to know exactly what I'm talking about.
(Don't bother replying to this if your less than 2.8k Diamond or Masters, no point in baseless theorycraft)
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Focus the colossi, don't attack the phoenix. If you are worried about the phoenix lifting lots of your stuff you can emp them. I won't worry about all the vikings getting killed, as long as the colossus die, too.
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Try to control their gas from the earlier stages of the game to delay the protoss/buy you enough time to deal with this. Also, +1 attack air upgrades for vikings helps.
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Kite the zealots and stay out of the range of the colossi b/c the only thing that can shoot up in that composition is the phoenix and they just suck against armored units. Focus the colossi first and then once they're gone, take down the zeals and have your vikings move onto the phoenixes. After the zeals are gone, have your marines help out with anti air
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Thors with support units to handle the zealots seems like it would be the way to go. You'll probably want to prepare to get thors in mid-to-late game TvP anyway since you'll want something that can take a bit of damage once the protoss starts busting out some AoE.
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i lost to a terran who keeps hot-key mauraders/vikings into 1 group, stim and aim colossus
medivacs and marines stim and attack area that's near the vikings
but i think if i had more zealots, i could hold it off
just an idea for you to think about, hopefully that helps
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On January 13 2011 00:25 ReachTheSky wrote:
Try to control their gas from the earlier stages of the game to delay the protoss/buy you enough time to deal with this. Also, +1 attack air upgrades for vikings helps. You mean do some early one base pressure to force Sentries?
I think the biggest problem with this build is you don't know wth the Protoss has. While they can keep tabs on your stuff for only 25/75, Terran only gets 270 mineral worth scans, and the Protoss never even shows the Phoenixes unless during engagement. Worst of all, Terran needs such a tailored army to defeat that composition.
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I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it
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On January 13 2011 00:17 Touch wrote:
Yeah, that shit is gay.
It's usually 2 Robo Colossus, one Stargate throwing out Phoenixes with the improved creation time, and the excess minerals is used in making Zealots for meat shield.
I can't imagine the usual MMM/Viking ever being able to work against this anymore, as it takes forever for the Vikings kill the Phoenixes, even IF you have air superiority. Zealots take too long to kill, but Colossus will wipe out the ground army
How are you guys dealing with this? If you really want replay, I'll post one, but I'm sure you guys have faced this often enough to know exactly what I'm talking about.
(Don't bother replying to this if your less than 2.8k Diamond or Masters, no point in baseless theorycraft)
Blue Flame Hellions behind Thors.
Long answer: New Phoenix (with CB) soaks up all gas from one base. Therefore even with pure Zealots it needs at least one more Base to support 2 Robo Colossus, more likely 2 additional mining bases if he is decent with Chronoboost and intends to upgrade at least a bit.
If you stay on MMM while P has 3 Bases up and running you are in Trouble.
Against this Composition transition to blueflame Hellions and Thors and keep some Vikings above Thors against Colossi and a potential Voidray switch. Phoenix melt against Thors, Zealots melt against Hellions, Thors withstand Colossi, Vikings get long Range AA Protection from Thors, both T Ground Units need same Upgrades -> Profit
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On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus?
Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs?
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With voidrays now doing additional damage to massive i don't think that thors are such a good answer. The protoss can easily mix in some void rays if he already has the stargate.
I haven't played against this much though, so i am not sure.
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I would like to see a replay actually.
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On January 13 2011 00:47 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:25 ReachTheSky wrote:
Try to control their gas from the earlier stages of the game to delay the protoss/buy you enough time to deal with this. Also, +1 attack air upgrades for vikings helps. You mean do some early one base pressure to force Sentries? I think the biggest problem with this build is you don't know wth the Protoss has. While they can keep tabs on your stuff for only 25/75, Terran only gets 270 mineral worth scans, and the Protoss never even shows the Phoenixes unless during engagement. Worst of all, Terran needs such a tailored army to defeat that composition.
With early pressure to force sentries/make them use up gas, you actually get game sense as to what they are up to. Therefore, you will know what they have based on their unit count/types of units. This gives u an idea of your boundaries that you can work with as a response. Scan should be the last possible resort. Running in 1 hellion can often make the protoss build 2-3 obs(granted they are 25 gas cheaper now, but still)
Terran needing a tailored army to defeat this is correct. Protoss had to tailor their army like they are to beat ours so now we have to do the same.
Also a reaper is good to pop in/out. Scouting with a factory is good as well( just try not to lose it as sometimes u may need it for an extra port, to produce an armory and so forth)
I prefer toss to go phoenix first tbh. It leaves their expo vulnerable early on. Alot of times u can force them to cancel it or even kill it while they think ur contained in ur base because of a couple phoenix.
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On January 13 2011 00:58 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus? Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs?
I wouldn't bother with the thor cannon because more times than not you won't be able to get in range of the collosus to turn it on. Toss can just back up real easily. I feel like the gas can be spent somewhere else better. Also puts ur thors at risk more often then not.
Alot of times throwing up an additional starport is good if they are going heavy phoenix collosus combo.
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On January 13 2011 00:58 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus? Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs?
nah it's pointless you want the thors to help kill the phoenixes, not the colossus. You'll still get vikings to kill those colossus , and yeah medivacs too. It's just impossible to let him have uncontested air control cause no air control = no medivacs, and there is no way to come out on top during fights without medivacs
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On January 13 2011 00:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
Focus the colossi, don't attack the phoenix. If you are worried about the phoenix lifting lots of your stuff you can emp them. I won't worry about all the vikings getting killed, as long as the colossus die, too.
This is the right answer.
I play protoss and use this build a lot. The only reason i make phoenixes is to cause the vikings to shoot at something that isn't my colossus. All my phoenixes die and i could care less because i have destroyed the ground army and usually have enough stalkers to clean up the remaining viking force.
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On January 13 2011 01:07 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:58 Touch wrote:On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus? Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs? nah it's pointless you want the thors to help kill the phoenixes, not the colossus. You'll still get vikings to kill those colossus , and yeah medivacs too. It's just impossible to let him have uncontested air control cause no air control = no medivacs, and there is no way to come out on top during fights without medivacs Good stuff, many thanks.
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On January 13 2011 01:02 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
With voidrays now doing additional damage to massive i don't think that thors are such a good answer. The protoss can easily mix in some void rays if he already has the stargate.
I haven't played against this much though, so i am not sure.
Thats why you keep producing Vikings instead of Medivacs. And without Medivacs no MM beyond Earlygame, therefore Hellions to get rid of the Zealots. You make make Vikings anyways as soon as you see Colossi (and Phoenix) so there is no additional investment for you if he switches to Voidrays. In addition Hellions dont cost gas and Vikings cost less gas than Medivacs (not to mention the additional costs for Marauders) so you can support a transition to Thors (including Upgrades for both Groundunits at once) with this composition against his composition.
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On January 13 2011 01:09 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
Focus the colossi, don't attack the phoenix. If you are worried about the phoenix lifting lots of your stuff you can emp them. I won't worry about all the vikings getting killed, as long as the colossus die, too. This is the right answer. I play protoss and use this build a lot. The only reason i make phoenixes is to cause the vikings to shoot at something that isn't my colossus. All my phoenixes die and i could care less because i have destroyed the ground army and usually have enough stalkers to clean up the remaining viking force.
the problem if terran does that is that he's relying on him being way ahead after the fight to win the game, if he kills all of his colossus (if he does so) at the cost of air control he will never get it back again and he'll never be able to have enough vikings for the next fights, nor medivacs.
This could work if phoenixes couldn't do 10 times the map while you're marching to P's base but that's not the case ~~
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On January 13 2011 01:09 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 01:02 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
With voidrays now doing additional damage to massive i don't think that thors are such a good answer. The protoss can easily mix in some void rays if he already has the stargate.
I haven't played against this much though, so i am not sure. Thats why you keep producing Vikings instead of Medivacs. And without Medivacs no MM beyond Earlygame, therefore Hellions to get rid of the Zealots. You make make Vikings anyways as soon as you see Colossi (and Phoenix) so there is no additional investment for you if he switches to Voidrays. In addition Hellions dont cost gas and Vikings cost less gas than Medivacs (not to mention the additional costs for Marauders) so you can support a transition to Thors (including Upgrades for both Groundunits at once) with this composition against his composition. I doubt a Protoss would transition into VRs with every Terran AA unit on the map (Marine/Vikings/Thor).
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I dont think so aswell. My point was, that you produce Vikings anyways against Colossi+Phoenixes so Voidrays are not even a concern.
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if i were toss i'd definetly include phoenix just for medivacs
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On January 13 2011 00:38 SONofaGUN wrote:
Kite the zealots and stay out of the range of the colossi b/c the only thing that can shoot up in that composition is the phoenix and they just suck against armored units. Focus the colossi first and then once they're gone, take down the zeals and have your vikings move onto the phoenixes. After the zeals are gone, have your marines help out with anti air
.... Such theorycrafting. Vikings happen to have 0 armor so phoenix still does fairly well against them.
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ghost marauder viking
try to emp the sentries. focus the vikings on the collosus don't let them sit there shooting phoenixes
once his collosus are dead you can kite his zealot heavy army all day. use emp on the sentries/stalkers and phoenixes if you have enough ghosts
also try to force battles whenever you have a good position. trading your bio for his army is fine as long as all the collosus die. its a lot faster for you to reproduce your bio ball than for him to get his collosus count back up
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United States7483 Posts
Short answer: Don't stick with the MMM+viking mix past mid-game.
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as a toss player i really like pheonix first not because it contains the terran player but everytime i kill a mule=270 minerals= i kill 2 and the pheonix are pretty much paid for also most terran players either don't react enough or over react with either 2 many marines or turrets not to mention that i don't have to have an observer as much cause i don't need the scouting intel from it and pheonix kill banshee play with good micro- even if my base is vulnerable force field can buy a lot of time
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yesterday i saw drewbie play against ddoro where ddoro did a mass phoenix colossus build and the game was like an hour long. drewbie ended up winning. his build was marine tank ghost early and added air units late game, bcs, raven, viking. he emp'd his own bcs to so they could not get feedbacked
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Well, OP talked about his opponent using zealots as meatshields, but what about stalkers ? Phoenixes do less DPS against armored than stalkers do (resp. 9.1 and 9.7) and are gas heavier, so if the P is putting all his gas into colossi/phoenixes vikings shouldn't be much more threatened (and it actually makes air armor quite interesting against this mix).
They're better against raven composition though, since their double attack with a shorter cooldown drain PDDs real fast, but I don't think it was the main idea of the mix.
I would feel more threatened by phoenixes late game, as T tends to produce less marines and more marauders because of colossi/storms, while during the early/mid-game when marines still fare quite well you can use them in your ball to cover your vikings.
Is OP speaking about a build, or more of an army composition? Phoenixes/colossi is quite gas heavy, and chargeless zealots are somewhat easy to kite, so I guess he's speaking about a lategame composition, when it's not unusual to have robo, twilight council and stargates up. I'd guess putting pressure on the protoss to force him to spend gas could help, but then again, T already had to pressure and harass P pre-patch,so it's not like this would seem an original piece of advice.
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maybe you shouldn't go MMM all the freaken time then.
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On January 13 2011 03:00 Whitewing wrote:
Short answer: Don't stick with the MMM+viking mix past mid-game.
T1-2 army loses to mixed t1-3 army?!?! No way! !!!!!11!!!!!!
If he's adding another unit to the mix to counter you, why not add another unit to your mix to counter the counter?
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That may be, though I'm quite not certain, due to the fact that we'd rather not start thinking in terms of "this counters that" blindfully?
Seriously enough, instead of being all slick and snarky, perhaps you might take the time to actually consider that OP's willing to discuss about the ways to combat that mix/build (? Don't know yet.), and not about how not to combat said mix? Those posts are about as relevant to the topic as "Don't try hellions" in a thread addressing VR builds.
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On January 13 2011 05:06 tuestresfat wrote:
maybe you shouldn't go MMM all the freaken time then.
-_-
really?
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i dont think its gonna change to much, you can just EMP the phoenix and they cant lift and vikings kinda kill phoenix. so i dont think its gonna be so harsh. its harder in ZvP
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i believe terran against toss should start skipping the starport and even start skipping stim / concussive against toss
save that gas for faster thors and then siege tanks
get siege tanks and thors with marine backup. siege tanks do very well against zeals, thors cost 50/50 more than a voidray and do more damage to ground units, long range air attack against pheonix, and if the toss went voidrays he cannot have much collossi so you pump more thors instead of tanks and go marine/thor against the toss
if the toss got collossi AND void ray he cant have too many voids so you go tank thor marine and let the thors and tanks be in front and marines behind to attack the void rays. tanks have a ton of range so if voidrays try to attack you have thors and marines shooting the voids and if collossi try to get in range to fight the marines the tanks take shots
lategame you get one starport, dont even put an addon on it, and get 1-2 medivacs JUST to heal your bio.
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On January 13 2011 05:57 roymarthyup wrote:
i believe terran against toss should start skipping the starport and even start skipping stim / concussive against toss
save that gas for faster thors and then siege tanks
get siege tanks and thors with marine backup. siege tanks do very well against zeals, thors cost 50/50 more than a voidray and do more damage to ground units, long range air attack against pheonix, and if the toss went voidrays he cannot have much collossi so you pump more thors instead of tanks and go marine/thor against the toss
if the toss got collossi AND void ray he cant have too many voids so you go tank thor marine and let the thors and tanks be in front and marines behind to attack the void rays. tanks have a ton of range so if voidrays try to attack you have thors and marines shooting the voids and if collossi try to get in range to fight the marines the tanks take shots
lategame you get one starport, dont even put an addon on it, and get 1-2 medivacs JUST to heal your bio.
???????????????
No they dont. They are horrible vs zealots
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the advice given in the SC2 section is just behind bad, tanks vs collo/phoenix/zealot whats next? Helions to counter collosus?
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On January 13 2011 01:26 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:38 SONofaGUN wrote:
Kite the zealots and stay out of the range of the colossi b/c the only thing that can shoot up in that composition is the phoenix and they just suck against armored units. Focus the colossi first and then once they're gone, take down the zeals and have your vikings move onto the phoenixes. After the zeals are gone, have your marines help out with anti air .... Such theorycrafting. Vikings happen to have 0 armor so phoenix still does fairly well against them.
yea..its not that bad of an idea but its far from realistic in the heat of battle. phoenix also do not suck against viking.
as for myself im still working on this..
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On January 13 2011 05:21 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 03:00 Whitewing wrote:
Short answer: Don't stick with the MMM+viking mix past mid-game. T1-2 army loses to mixed t1-3 army?!?! No way! !!!!!11!!!!!! If he's adding another unit to the mix to counter you, why not add another unit to your mix to counter the counter?
Erm wat? Medivacs and Vikings are tier 3 -_-'
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On January 13 2011 06:14 Hyren wrote:
Erm wat? Medivacs and Vikings are tier 3 -_-'
you can't compare tech medivac and tech colossus man.
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On January 13 2011 06:01 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 05:57 roymarthyup wrote:
i believe terran against toss should start skipping the starport and even start skipping stim / concussive against toss
save that gas for faster thors and then siege tanks
get siege tanks and thors with marine backup. siege tanks do very well against zeals, thors cost 50/50 more than a voidray and do more damage to ground units, long range air attack against pheonix, and if the toss went voidrays he cannot have much collossi so you pump more thors instead of tanks and go marine/thor against the toss
if the toss got collossi AND void ray he cant have too many voids so you go tank thor marine and let the thors and tanks be in front and marines behind to attack the void rays. tanks have a ton of range so if voidrays try to attack you have thors and marines shooting the voids and if collossi try to get in range to fight the marines the tanks take shots
lategame you get one starport, dont even put an addon on it, and get 1-2 medivacs JUST to heal your bio. ??????????????? No they dont. They are horrible vs zealots
siege tanks are good against zealots/collossi because if you look at the income of 2base terran and 2base toss
2base terran gets 1700 minerals / 500 gas a minute
2base toss gets 1500 minerals / 500 gas a minute
i gave the terran 200/min on 2base bonus from mule, but mule actually provides more bonus than 200 but i will call it just 200 because the toss has chrono to even things out and the terran has to lose mining when he makes buildings
lets say 3 minutes of income
4500 minerals and 1500 gas for the toss
5100 minerals 1500 gas for the terran
lets make the buildings.. hmm
3 rax 3 reactor for marines = 600/150
3 factory 3 techlab for thors and tanks = 600/375
armory = 150/100
siege tech = 100/100
combat shields = 100/100
stim 100/100
starport 150/100 (just for 2 medivacs to heal marines)
strike cannons = 150/150
total = 1950 / 1175
6 warpgates for zealots = 900
warpgate upgrade = 50/50
1 stargate = 150/150
2 robo = 400/200
1 robo bay = 200/200
collossi range = 200/200
twilight = 150/100
charge = 200/200
cybercore = 150
total = 2400 / 1100
((i dont count 150 cost of orbital in this equation because orbital is like a super SCV macro mechanic of the terran. Orbital costs as much as 3 scv's and takes as long as 2 scv's to build and a mule is as good as 6 scv's. So an orbital is just bonus income and its there to compete with chronoboost. chronoboost doesnt give more income after bases are saturated but mule does))
so it costs the toss more to get set up. but thats not the only factor
Chronoboost is probably better than the mule mechanic early game and terrans are forced to lose mining time with building scv's while toss does not lose mining time. But mule gives an extra income after mineral saturation AND terran is alot cheaper to get started into midgame strength so i would say this is a slight income advantage for terran so thats why i counted terran as having 200 more income per minute in my original income statements
looking at the numbers it seems pretty equal and even for both races to start up their midgame power. . In this scenario the toss would probably go voidray(or pheonix) / collossi / zealot or probably just pure zealot/collossi because the terran has no air
the terran goes marine / siege tank / thor with 1 or 2 medivacs to heal stim.
lets just form an army with the income i listed
2base terran gets 1700 minerals / 500 gas a minute
2base toss gets 1500 minerals / 500 gas a minute
4500 minerals and 1500 gas for the toss
5100 minerals 1500 gas for the terran
4 thor = 1200/800
2 medivac = 200/200
4 siegetank = 600/500
62 marines = 3100
total = 5100 / 1500 / 100 food
6 collossi = 1800/1200
3 pheonix = 450/300
23 zealots = 2300
total = 4550/1500 / 88 food
because terran army costs 12 more food that means you must take away 2 marines to pay for a depot, bringing it down to 60 marines 98food plus a depot. that means its 88food vs 90food. We can reduce the terran by 1 marine again and i think that makes it a good comparison 88vs89 because i gave the toss 50 more minerals for that 23rd zealot
so you have 4 thor 2 medivac 4siegetank 59marines VS 6collossi 3pheonix 23zealots
23 zealots will get absolutely shredded in seconds so fast to stimmed marine fire from 59 marines plus 4tanks and 4collossi. I should test these two armies in combat but my gut feeling is the zealots will die way faster than the marines in a pure Amove scenario
the pheonix will be able to lift off the tanks but marine micro to just focus the pheonix really quick with thors and marines should kill the pheonix really fast which helps counter the liftoff
theres many factors but i think the terran wins. I actually thought of a cool idea, collossi move faster than thors and collossi have RANGE9 and strike cannons is RANGE7 so that means if you micro back collossi you can always avoid strike cannons
however i think after the zealots get shredded by charge, a good strategy is to load up your thors into medivacs and medviacs are faster than collossi so you actually might wanna drop your thors in order to strike cannon the collossi
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The counter to this composition is still marines, marauders, medivacs and vikings. However, you can't blindly 1-a into it or you will get crushed. You need to:
1) Focus fire the Phoenix with your marines when they engage your vikings.
2) Attack the collosi with your vikings.
3) Chase the collosi with your marauders so they can't shoot your marines.
Hotkeys: Full-army, Vikings, Marines, Marauders + Medivacs
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marine is terrible vs colossus and 6 colossus will absolutely shit on that composition lol
your "59 marines" are basically worthless with colossus out there not to mention how immobile your army is.
Im done with you
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cArn- already gave the best possible advice in page one. Read it, if your actually here for a purpose.
The rest of you morons, who didn't read my full post (only advice wanted from Masters/2.8k+ Diamond), should stop giving crappy advice.
Also, Zealots/Colossus/Phoenix CANNOT be kited. It simply cannot. When you run back, your army will automatically assume a ball shape, allowing a single Colossus hit to rip your junk apart. Every stop you make to shoot a volley, 5 Colossus respond in equal.
The hotkey thing is quite possible tho, it's sound in theory but I think any ball of Marines will evaporate to a couple volleys from the Colossus, if they can even reach the Phoenix without getting blocked by Zealots.
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On January 13 2011 06:58 Sadist wrote:
marine is terrible vs colossus and 6 colossus will absolutely shit on that composition lol
your "59 marines" are basically worthless with colossus out there not to mention how immobile your army is.
Im done with you
i honestly am just theorycrafting and i abmit i dont really know anything
but i would like to test it out
i could create a custom map with 4 thor 2 medivac 4siegetank 59marines VS 6collossi 3pheonix 23zealots and we could play that map a couple times to see what wins
would u wanna try that out in a few days or something?
i honestly am trying to find a good combo to beat collossi terran and i dunno what it could be
my hunch is the terran wins but he has to micro it correctly.
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One or two PDDs would help in soaking up phoenix fire and giving your vikings extra time to focus down the colossi.
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On January 13 2011 06:14 Hyren wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 05:21 Penatronic wrote:On January 13 2011 03:00 Whitewing wrote:
Short answer: Don't stick with the MMM+viking mix past mid-game. T1-2 army loses to mixed t1-3 army?!?! No way! !!!!!11!!!!!! If he's adding another unit to the mix to counter you, why not add another unit to your mix to counter the counter? Erm wat? Medivacs and Vikings are tier 3 -_-'
Sorry for the massive snarkey-ness of my first post.
Medi/Viking may be "t3" but it's Terran t3... Rax---> factory ---> starport is 450/200?
Gate--> cyber ---> robo---> colossus den is something like 700/300 + much more time to reach.
Terran tech is just laughably easy to get to, especially when you compare it to the Zerg tech tree.
Go straight 2 rax ---> bc in a 4v4 and you'll laugh your ass off.
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On January 13 2011 07:25 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:14 Hyren wrote:On January 13 2011 05:21 Penatronic wrote:On January 13 2011 03:00 Whitewing wrote:
Short answer: Don't stick with the MMM+viking mix past mid-game. T1-2 army loses to mixed t1-3 army?!?! No way! !!!!!11!!!!!! If he's adding another unit to the mix to counter you, why not add another unit to your mix to counter the counter? Erm wat? Medivacs and Vikings are tier 3 -_-' Sorry for the massive snarkey-ness of my first post. Medi/Viking may be "t3" but it's Terran t3... Rax---> factory ---> starport is 450/200? Gate--> cyber ---> robo---> colossus den is something like 700/300 + much more time to reach. Terran tech is just laughably easy to get to, especially when you compare it to the Zerg tech tree. Go straight 2 rax ---> bc in a 4v4 and you'll laugh your ass off.
xD Colossus den.
Medivacs and vikings don't actually feel like t3 despite being so like the replier said. It's too easy to get them and tech-switch if you feel like it compared to throwing down another tech building per unit.
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On January 13 2011 06:48 roymarthyup wrote:
[A lot of stuff, really. Sadly... ]
... you're theorycrafting, and that's not what is needed here.
One problem I see with adding thors though (apart from satisfying OP to the point that he basically called all but one of us morons) is the reduced mobility of the army, while phoenix on the contrary add some harassment possibilities for the protoss.
They are also quite a good choice in that they'll be able to patrol drop routes effectively, reducing the amount of pressure a Terran can deal in the hands of a good Protoss.
To be honest I'm not really expecting thors to have a lot of success, except in case of focus fire from the phoenixes. Well, that means they can be a deterrent for gravitron beam, which is not bad at all, but... I just can't help but think they'll be helpful, but not much more than that.
Do you suggest it based upon testing/experience, cArn-? As I haven't run into mass phoenix play still, I wouldn't be against some feedback about how well do thors fare, actually.
Also, OP (yep, you, Touch) still didn't say if he is talking about a lategame army composition, or an earlier style of play. Did you run into builds tailored about getting that composition from midgame onwards?
I'm more of a banshee user myself, and even though I don't think them to be weaker now in direct confrontation (well, cloak and obs sniping is still "advised", of course), they don't have an unlimited supply of energy and I'm more concerned about early phoenix play that would disrupt you with harass while you move on the map. I don't think I'll be able to use them lategame if there are phoenixes, what with colossi/storms not making marines an option.
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Thors are pretty handy. 255mm is very good against my colossi, and phoenix tend to group up and let thors eat them for breakfast. Just have to be careful against Void Rays, now that they do the 20% extra vs. Thors.
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On January 13 2011 07:01 Touch wrote:The rest of you morons, who didn't read my full post (only advice wanted from Masters/2.8k+ Diamond), should stop giving crappy advice.
As much as I understand your frustration that there are a lot of jokers on the liquid forums, I'm not sure being a condescending asshole is the best way to go about remedying this problem.
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mass vikings is the answer really. Vikings do fine vs phoenix and are especially great if you can get such numbers that you can 1 hit the colossi. In big battles always make sure to fire the colossi first and try to keep your bio a bit back in the meanwhile (so you don't trade your bio for his colossi too much).
1 or 2 thors mixed in your army is alright to potentially keep the vikings above but is not strictly needed. It's much more important to just MASS those vikings (2 starport reactor at least later on perhaps even 3). Air armor upgrades are also critical, as it cuts down the phoenix damage ALOT, 1-0 phoenix do well vs vikings but 0-1 vikings beat 1-0 phoenix, if you get your vikings/medivacs 0-2 it gets even better (toss can't get 2-0 phoenix without the rediculously expensive fleet beacon).
Harass should be easy to stop with your marines, it might be neccesary to play a bit more defensive then normal but in the end terran will win quite easily if toss keeps phoenix massing like this.
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On January 13 2011 09:19 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:01 Touch wrote:The rest of you morons, who didn't read my full post (only advice wanted from Masters/2.8k+ Diamond), should stop giving crappy advice. As much as I understand your frustration that there are a lot of jokers on the liquid forums, I'm not sure being a condescending asshole is the best way to go about remedying this problem. You just took the cake, most useless post in this thread yet. If there's a condescending asshole anywhere, your it.
Responding to previous posts, I'm talking about a 2 base (3rd base on the way) game stage, around the 13ish minute mark, where both armies are nearly maxed / looking to trade supplies to make HT/Ghosts for the late game.
I haven't been able to face this build in the last 15 games I've played today, but Thors still seem like the most logical solution. While they aren't too great for DPS, when the Phoenix bunch up against the VIkings, they should melt fast under the Thor fire. If the Phoenix retreat, the Vikings can capitalize.
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dont be a complete moron and a move into there army so that ur vikings attack the phoenix. you ll have no army left by the time the vikings kill all the collosi + phoenix. ff the collosus with your vikings. theres your "master league" answer but i think a bronze player should be able to tell u that
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On January 13 2011 11:45 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 09:19 tuestresfat wrote:On January 13 2011 07:01 Touch wrote:The rest of you morons, who didn't read my full post (only advice wanted from Masters/2.8k+ Diamond), should stop giving crappy advice. As much as I understand your frustration that there are a lot of jokers on the liquid forums, I'm not sure being a condescending asshole is the best way to go about remedying this problem. You just took the cake, most useless post in this thread yet. If there's a condescending asshole anywhere, your it.
you should probably read every post you qq'ed in. want me to quote them for you?
but thanks for proving my point regardless.
p.s. you're*
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On January 13 2011 11:52 terranuapart wrote:
dont be a complete moron and a move into there army so that ur vikings attack the phoenix. you ll have no army left by the time the vikings kill all the collosi + phoenix. ff the collosus with your vikings. theres your "master league" answer but i think a bronze player should be able to tell u that
You don't keep your marines/Hellions in engagement range of the Colossi while your Vikings are fighting the Phoenix/Sniping Colossi. The Phoenix/Colossi build is so gas heavy that stalkers will be low in number if even present. Thors have a huge AA-Range so they can support the Vikings from well beyond the Colossi range, if they move the Colossi forward to engage the Thors, they risk being insta-gibbed by the Viking Ball before even getting a shot. trying to move Zealots forward to engage the Thors makes them vulnerable to the Marine or Hellion Ball. Really in Viking/Thor/Marine vs Phoenix/Colossi/Zealot, the Terran player gets to decide the dimensions of the battle due to the huge AA ranges of Vikings and Thors vs the short ranges of the Phoenix.
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Viking +1 armor upgrade is actually superior than +1 attack upgrade when it comes to fighting phoenixes, it makes a significant difference ( I don't have the exact numbers up my sleeve but have tested it in the unit tester map).
You don't REALLY need +1 air damage to kill collosi, since vikings already do absurd AA damage from good range, but keeping them alive longer so they can get more shots in on the collosi is very effective.
So, basically, get +1 air armor and focus the collosi and emp the phoenix as someone else has already stated in the thread if you have stuff you don't want to be lifted.
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Same things going on for me ... TvP i feel like is auto loss for terran .. those colosus storms and phoenix dunno what to do .. protoss can counter everything
2.5 diamond here http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1461169/MvP
i contacted blizzard for support and asking to nerf toss a little b4 everyone leaves terran
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Get some thors in it I would say. MMMV isn't always the answer you know, the composition you speak of simply counters it, especially if they get some forcefields... on which thors can step.
I don't know, but as a Protoss player, when I see thors I quickly switch the starports to void ray and the robo bays to immortals. I know I'll never beat it with colossus/viking, which is indeed a solid composition I often use.
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Toss will need at least two bases to do this build. If he techs up too greedily (for instance staying on only 2 warpgates for too long ), terran should really be able to punch through with an 11 minute push and do significant damage. However I can see how in late game toss will be able to transition from a macrobased collosus build into this a lot faster than before. However by that time in the game terran can tech up to heavy starport play, raven banshee and viking off of 4 ports. I see this as a good army composition which is similarly gas heavy and should be viable around the same time phoenix collosus is viable for toss (remember ofc that if toss tries to race up the tech tree too quickly he is begging for decapitation by 11 minute push tech push)
Oh yeah and terran = the 111 race. 1/1/1 is glorious, use that shit.
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On January 13 2011 15:24 Butterz wrote:Same things going on for me ... TvP i feel like is auto loss for terran .. those colosus storms and phoenix dunno what to do .. protoss can counter everything 2.5 diamond here http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1461169/MvPi contacted blizzard for support and asking to nerf toss a little b4 everyone leaves terran
You are the reason people look down on terran players at times.
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On January 13 2011 08:08 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:48 roymarthyup wrote:
[A lot of stuff, really. Sadly... ] ... you're theorycrafting, and that's not what is needed here. One problem I see with adding thors though (apart from satisfying OP to the point that he basically called all but one of us morons) is the reduced mobility of the army, while phoenix on the contrary add some harassment possibilities for the protoss. They are also quite a good choice in that they'll be able to patrol drop routes effectively, reducing the amount of pressure a Terran can deal in the hands of a good Protoss. To be honest I'm not really expecting thors to have a lot of success, except in case of focus fire from the phoenixes. Well, that means they can be a deterrent for gravitron beam, which is not bad at all, but... I just can't help but think they'll be helpful, but not much more than that. Do you suggest it based upon testing/experience, cArn-? As I haven't run into mass phoenix play still, I wouldn't be against some feedback about how well do thors fare, actually. Also, OP (yep, you, Touch) still didn't say if he is talking about a lategame army composition, or an earlier style of play. Did you run into builds tailored about getting that composition from midgame onwards? I'm more of a banshee user myself, and even though I don't think them to be weaker now in direct confrontation (well, cloak and obs sniping is still "advised", of course), they don't have an unlimited supply of energy and I'm more concerned about early phoenix play that would disrupt you with harass while you move on the map. I don't think I'll be able to use them lategame if there are phoenixes, what with colossi/storms not making marines an option.
I couldn't really test it a lot cause I didn't encounter that very often, but the few times I did it really seemed to be the best answer, once you get around 3 or 4 thors phoenixes are having a very bad time. But then again yeah, you really need to have good control, micro plays a huge part in this.
Also the reason it seems to work quite well is that Thors are good anyway TvP in any situation, not like vikings which become useless once P have no more colossi and switch to templars or whatever.
Only problem you need a huge economy (3base+) , but so does P to have colossi + phoenixes with enough gateway units to be a threat
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Hello, from experience as a Protoss player who loves pheonix and often mixes them with collosis the answer is marauders. Yeah, just like how it was played in beta... Drewbie and Select still use the style alot, basically you keep hitting and running, but running into the collosis and sniping them all. I sacrifice a big chunk of my army to air, which lifting isn't extremely useful.
I haven't tried mixing in the ghosts, seems like a potent combination though. The standard way you deal with collosis + zealot/stalker is still totally viable however, the Protoss army is just slightly more cost efficient, but with good positioning totally viable.
Tanks can be alright in TvP, IMO they are pretty stupid to use in larger numbers, almost as bad as the Thor suggestion. Maybe thors seem good on paper, but the only thing they are actually okay against is Templar builds, still you're very hindered by their mobility. Just one or two immortals wreck thors, not to mention they'll eat up all your gas so you can't get vikings. Just ugh, filter out the bad advice.
Sauron Terran does seem the way to go, obviously at your level you know how to engage collosis, and since I play Protoss, I feel pretty safe once I get 8 or so, so add constant pressure, and keep sniping them at all costs, there's a really deadly timing where Im massing my air and ny ground lacks gateway units to defend collosis, perfect time to attack then.
As the game drags on you'll be getting farther and farther behind because those pheonix numbers will kill building up, however the one advantage this build has, is it really contains my collosis and forces me to stay in a choke, giving you time to get lots of expansions. Hope that helps.
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Touch, you are a dick. And this thread starts out whining as you break rule after rule for the strat forums. Namely, not insulting players who give advice and generally being a difficult person for no apparent reason other than unjustified elitism.
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
These army compositions can go either way depending on a few simple factors. Upgrades, food count and micro.
If you're being out upgraded badly you'll lose to the colossus melting your army no matter how quickly you snipe them.
If you're being out macro'd, well that's simple enough.
As for micro, you need to exploit the 9 range of your vikings. Pick off any phoenix and get any free colossus shots you can manage. With the longer range on the vikings you should be able to take potshots before any engagements by simply retreating to the marines. Also, as many players have said get a thor.
One thor and/or ghosts really decimate phoenix play.
Again, you don't want theorycrafting but there's no way to tell in your situation since there are no replays and yet you claim to lose to this a lot.
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Its difficult to beat. Rush out thors, then spamm hellions and then ultimatlely get siege tanks last.
While spamming thors get a few vikings on top of your thor and keep expanding.
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On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
Then what are Hellions?
I mean, if thors are t3, they require an armory after factory, vikings require a starport after factory, surely thors and vikings are then the same tier?
Seems only logical to me that Terran has a t4 as the only race? At least:
t1: Marines
t1.2, marauders, reapers
t2: hellions, ghosts
t2.5: siege tanks
t3: thors, vikings, medivacs
t3.5, banshees, ravens
t4 battle cruisers
I think this whole tier is pretty silly by the way, it's pretty obvious that the tech path of different races is too dissimilar to make such a comparison. I mean, no one has ever rushed to ultras, why? Because you need to go pool -> lair -> pit -> hive > cavern to get there. Thors is baracks -> factory -> armory. You create a tech lab while you make the armory. Colossus is gate -> core -> robo -> bay. And supposedly all are 'tier three'.
But hey, technically zerg doesn't need to get an overlord to arrive on the carvern eh. :')
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On January 13 2011 16:08 Skillz_Man wrote:
Hello, from experience as a Protoss player who loves pheonix and often mixes them with collosis the answer is marauders. Yeah, just like how it was played in beta... Drewbie and Select still use the style alot, basically you keep hitting and running, but running into the collosis and sniping them all. I sacrifice a big chunk of my army to air, which lifting isn't extremely useful.
I see how you'd want to simply "outground" the protoss, but isn't running into the colossi hard to do since zealots are used as mineral dumps and meatwalls ?
I'd fear that if my lead isn't significant enough after the battle (or the position favorable, for example near his expand to follow into some probe killing), the lack of antiair will allow the phoenixes to finish off/slow the army, or pick up the reinforcements. As you're putting it yourself, "As the game drags on you'll be getting farther and farther behind because those pheonix numbers will keep building up".
This, or I guess what you're suggesting is to mass marauders to outmacro the P's ground army and kill the colossi, buying time to expand and get a sufficient lead to smash him definitively before he can get his colossi count back?
On January 13 2011 16:02 cArn- wrote:
I couldn't really test it a lot cause I didn't encounter that very often, but the few times I did it really seemed to be the best answer, once you get around 3 or 4 thors phoenixes are having a very bad time. But then again yeah, you really need to have good control, micro plays a huge part in this.
Also the reason it seems to work quite well is that Thors are good anyway TvP in any situation, not like vikings which become useless once P have no more colossi and switch to templars or whatever.
Only problem you need a huge economy (3base+) , but so does P to have colossi + phoenixes with enough gateway units to be a threat
Thanks for the input. I was sceptical about using thors against a mix including lots of zealots, but it feels like positioning, taking potshots and using superior range to avoid too much commitment is key in this case. Well, I'll see how it'll go if I meet this on ladder. 
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On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Touch, you are a dick. And this thread starts out whining as you break rule after rule for the strat forums. Namely, not insulting players who give advice and generally being a difficult person for no apparent reason other than unjustified elitism.
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
These army compositions can go either way depending on a few simple factors. Upgrades, food count and micro.
If you're being out upgraded badly you'll lose to the colossus melting your army no matter how quickly you snipe them.
If you're being out macro'd, well that's simple enough.
As for micro, you need to exploit the 9 range of your vikings. Pick off any phoenix and get any free colossus shots you can manage. With the longer range on the vikings you should be able to take potshots before any engagements by simply retreating to the marines. Also, as many players have said get a thor.
One thor and/or ghosts really decimate phoenix play.
Again, you don't want theorycrafting but there's no way to tell in your situation since there are no replays and yet you claim to lose to this a lot. If I'm a dick, then I ask you to reposition your head somewhere else except between my legs. I don't wanna read useless text from players who have nothing to offer.
http://www.filefront.com/17788347/Metalopolis (4).SC2Replay
Here's the replay, for everyone else, not you 
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Just got absolutely crushed the other day versus this.
Granted, I was a bit out of position on steppes and fought near a ramp and got Forcefielded. But I had about 15 Vikings and still failed to take down more than 3 out of 5 Colossus.
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Phoenix are only effective in small numbers (read: less than 10), and usually you get them after you already have 3-4 colossi. They absolutely destroy any terran 1 reactor starport build, and nullify the army advantage terran is supposed to have in the midgame, making a lot of terran players struggle, as they choose to attack instead of defend (and it's very easy to get a great arc on the colossi/phoenix/zealot ball because of limited forcefields).
But phoenixes are only a midgame force, as they are very weak against any army that has ghosts and thors in it. Absolutely do get thors if protoss is overmaking them.
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On February 15 2011 04:52 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote:
Phoenix are only effective in small numbers (read: less than 10), and usually you get them after you already have 3-4 colossi. They absolutely destroy any terran 1 reactor starport build, and nullify the army advantage terran is supposed to have in the midgame, making a lot of terran players struggle, as they choose to attack instead of defend (and it's very easy to get a great arc on the colossi/phoenix/zealot ball because of limited forcefields).
But phoenixes are only a midgame force, as they are very weak against any army that has ghosts and thors in it. Absolutely do get thors if protoss is overmaking them.
Phoenixes can actually lift up ghosts and quickly focus-fire them down. For thors, you're correct though. All protoss has to do though is chrono out immortals from his pre-existing robos.
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There are always 2 sides to every strategy: pro and con. Good thing about Phoenix/Colossus is that it is ridiculously hard to stop. The bad parts are that it can only happen later stage of the game and it costs a ton amount of money.
I'll explain how this build is very hard to get to.
First, obvious one: Money
I do know that phoenix takes less time to build after the recent patch but it still cost the same amount of money. Furthermore, Colossus is the most expensive unit on the ground + the range upgrade. If a protoss rushes for this build, Terran will bring marines and marauders to kill almost everything. If protoss builds an army and then make the Colossus, you are not making anything new. You are making every day protoss ball.
Second, most important one: transition
Transition is probably one of the easiest yet the most important thing that can win you the game. If a protoss goes for the colossus, he should stay with the robo tech for a while. If a protoss goes for stargate, he should stay with stargate for while. Reason for staying with one tech tree is to maximize your army.
Here is an example, core unit vs. colossus
If you only stay with only gateway units, you will have about 6 zealots and 3 stalkers more units than protoss whom goes for the colossus.
The teching up means you are getting stronger units for the money that you pay yet, it also means that your army will be small.
Thus, having 2 major tech tree in the early phase of the game will endanger your game as protoss.
Lastly, the important concept of colossus.
Colossus is NOT a fighting unit, it is the siege tank of the protoss. It is combat supporting unit. Meaning that Colossus is EXTREMELY weak when it is not guarded with Zealots and stalkers.
So enough with how this build sucks, let's talk about how awesome this build is.
What kills phoenix? Marines
What melt away Marines? 2~3 Colossus
What kills colossus? Vikings, tanks, and marauders
Viking: Get destroyed with mass phoenix
Tank: Gets lifted by Phoenix
Marauder: Zealots tanks the damage and forcefield will buy enough time to kill marauders
So basically this mix will almost always win against average terrans. It is just TOO hard to get to
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On January 13 2011 00:17 Touch wrote:
Yeah, that shit is gay.
It's usually 2 Robo Colossus, one Stargate throwing out Phoenixes with the improved creation time, and the excess minerals is used in making Zealots for meat shield.
I can't imagine the usual MMM/Viking ever being able to work against this anymore, as it takes forever for the Vikings kill the Phoenixes, even IF you have air superiority. Zealots take too long to kill, but Colossus will wipe out the ground army
How are you guys dealing with this? If you really want replay, I'll post one, but I'm sure you guys have faced this often enough to know exactly what I'm talking about.
(Don't bother replying to this if your less than 2.8k Diamond or Masters, no point in baseless theorycraft)
Well i can tell you what i know works, as a protoss player i feel like thors are a really underutalized unit. First they do AoE splash dmg to light, allowing them to be rather effective. Also the thors serve a dual purpose because with proper positioning they really do eat the colossi splash. so maybe get like 2-3 thors with your standard unit combonation. i mean phoenix colossi was made to counter mmmv so unless you are better you will find it to be incredibly difficult. Also i am not sure but i think if you could emp the phoenix that could work too, or maybe a mix.
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On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Touch, you are a dick. And this thread starts out whining as you break rule after rule for the strat forums. Namely, not insulting players who give advice and generally being a difficult person for no apparent reason other than unjustified elitism.
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
These army compositions can go either way depending on a few simple factors. Upgrades, food count and micro.
If you're being out upgraded badly you'll lose to the colossus melting your army no matter how quickly you snipe them.
If you're being out macro'd, well that's simple enough.
As for micro, you need to exploit the 9 range of your vikings. Pick off any phoenix and get any free colossus shots you can manage. With the longer range on the vikings you should be able to take potshots before any engagements by simply retreating to the marines. Also, as many players have said get a thor.
One thor and/or ghosts really decimate phoenix play.
Again, you don't want theorycrafting but there's no way to tell in your situation since there are no replays and yet you claim to lose to this a lot.
i said pretty much the same thing, i just hope he reads one of ours. ^_^ good post
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On January 13 2011 16:18 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 16:11 Ummbeefy wrote:
Anyway, a first of all I do want a replay. Second, someone said medivacs and vikings are t3, that's horseshit. They're t2, battlecruiser/thor would be t3.
Then what are Hellions? I mean, if thors are t3, they require an armory after factory, vikings require a starport after factory, surely thors and vikings are then the same tier? Seems only logical to me that Terran has a t4 as the only race? At least: t1: Marines t1.2, marauders, reapers t2: hellions, ghosts t2.5: siege tanks t3: thors, vikings, medivacs t3.5, banshees, ravens t4 battle cruisers I think this whole tier is pretty silly by the way, it's pretty obvious that the tech path of different races is too dissimilar to make such a comparison. I mean, no one has ever rushed to ultras, why? Because you need to go pool -> lair -> pit -> hive > cavern to get there. Thors is baracks -> factory -> armory. You create a tech lab while you make the armory. Colossus is gate -> core -> robo -> bay. And supposedly all are 'tier three'. But hey, technically zerg doesn't need to get an overlord to arrive on the carvern eh. :')
Medivacs and vikings are not t3... they are t1.5 or t2 at the best....
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Mech demolishes colossus phoenix, if only more terrans would realize the strenght of mech and know when it is time to transition out of mm.. Much like protoss transitions from robo into twi/templar tech but yes, kite the zealots and stay out of colossus range while you focus fire ze colu with vikings, just make sure to kill the col asap because phoenix wont make much of a difference once they are dead.
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The best way to fight it is to just mass a shitload of vikings and keep around 1 or 2 thor with your army.
Vikings are about cost even against phoenix. It is important to focus the colossi first though as they are the real threat and vikings and phoenix don't deal much damage against eachother anyway (no bonusses). If you kill all colossi you have absolutely no problem dealing with the phoenix even if all your marines died as you simply have 1 or 2 thor around.
It is always important to upgrade air armor when you fight vs mass phoenix as T. Phoenix go from 10 to 8 damage a volley against vikings if you get an armor upg. They will often get an air attack upgrade as it's cheap and they got cyber anyway so you absolutely have to respond with air armor, that way you can ignore phoenixes much easier for a while as you are focussing the colossi.
Armor upgrade level 2 generally gives you an edge in the viking vs phoenix fight as Terran can easily get that whereas protoss needs the rediculously expensive fleet beacon if they want to get air attack level 2 to compensate.
Don't bother upgrading air attack, it is a pathetic upgrade that only gives your vikings 15 dmg vs colossi instead of 14.
Also mech is indeed a very favorable composition against phoenix colossus. If you haven't started upgrading your bio I would indeed suggest to switch into it or go with it more. However I wouldn't switch if you already committed to bio, ie you made tons of barracks and got infantry upgrades already. Mech is better then bio vs this composition but it isn't worth sacrificing all your initial investments for as factories etc are very expensive.
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lol So many silly suggestions here.
To start off, 250 mm cannons are USELESS versus colossus, you will never, ever be able to get inside the 7 range required to do it since colossus have 9 range, and move much faster, not to mention your Thors will all pile up and take even more splash from colossus. 250 mm cannon's only use is against immortals.
Siege tanks are also a terrible suggestion, because they don't get good until you have a shitton of them, and have them positioned properly, not to mention they get pooped on by colossus, immortal AND zealots pretty hard.
MM+Viking doesn't really work past 3 Colossus, because the colossus will kill your marauders before they die to Vikings. Maybe if you have godly micro like Nada or Boxer you can make it work all game long, but MM+Viking will generally get rolled over in large supply (150+) battles.
The only real way to beat this composition is Mech with a touch of bio maybe. Thors and Vikings are your key units, fill in marines/marauders/hellions for mineral dump or something. Thors tend to destroy everything except colossus (using 250 mm cannons on immortals) so all you need to worry about is having enough vikings.
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Back to the thread, I never ever gg. :D
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If you're dead set on going mmm/vikings only then you need to win the micro battle. Try to snipe and poke at the colossi all the time. This will force his phoenix to remain with his army and not harass you, opening up drop harassment which you should make heavy use of. As soon as he pulls away his phoenix from his colossi you poke in there and focusfire one down. Always have a way to escape with your vikings in such a manner that at worst you'll get caught in a one-on-one fight with the phoenix. You don't want to open them up to being attacked by the stalkers.
But personally I would just add in ghosts and emp his phoenix, then focusfire the colossi with your vikings in the big fight. Assuming equal upgrades you'll win since his phoenix will be largely useless once his colossi are dead.
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Phoenix/colossus is severely less effective then stalker/colossus especially when upgrades are involved. It does stop you from harassing easily though but blink stalkers do so in the same way.
The proper counter is just the same as against normal colossus armies, just MMMG with vikings. Focus the vikings on the colossi first at all times, if the phoenix remain that is no problem as even small numbers of marines take them out really fast, especially with some +attack upgrades on your MM which you should always have. Just make sure to get enough vikings against this mix though, probably 2 starport reactors or 1 starport reactor 1 normal starport. If you can afford an armor upgrade on your air also helps tremendously.
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Against 1star double robo? That may as well be Double star/robo which is harder to deal with and gets shit on by mass viking/Marauder, If he's going that heavy on Col/phoenix he's barely gonna have a strong ground army (mostly Zealots), just go double starport when you see that unit comp. If you see double robo in general and you know it's Collosi that's getting pumped out and not Immos, you should get a double starport anyway.
You should get enough Vikings to 1 volley a Collosi, so if you can, try snipe as many as you can, but if you can't and he engages you, just target the Collosi with the vikings, and not the phoenix.
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EPT
