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Yeah, that shit is gay.
It's usually 2 Robo Colossus, one Stargate throwing out Phoenixes with the improved creation time, and the excess minerals is used in making Zealots for meat shield.
I can't imagine the usual MMM/Viking ever being able to work against this anymore, as it takes forever for the Vikings kill the Phoenixes, even IF you have air superiority. Zealots take too long to kill, but Colossus will wipe out the ground army
How are you guys dealing with this? If you really want replay, I'll post one, but I'm sure you guys have faced this often enough to know exactly what I'm talking about.
(Don't bother replying to this if your less than 2.8k Diamond or Masters, no point in baseless theorycraft)
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Focus the colossi, don't attack the phoenix. If you are worried about the phoenix lifting lots of your stuff you can emp them. I won't worry about all the vikings getting killed, as long as the colossus die, too.
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Try to control their gas from the earlier stages of the game to delay the protoss/buy you enough time to deal with this. Also, +1 attack air upgrades for vikings helps.
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Kite the zealots and stay out of the range of the colossi b/c the only thing that can shoot up in that composition is the phoenix and they just suck against armored units. Focus the colossi first and then once they're gone, take down the zeals and have your vikings move onto the phoenixes. After the zeals are gone, have your marines help out with anti air
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Thors with support units to handle the zealots seems like it would be the way to go. You'll probably want to prepare to get thors in mid-to-late game TvP anyway since you'll want something that can take a bit of damage once the protoss starts busting out some AoE.
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i lost to a terran who keeps hot-key mauraders/vikings into 1 group, stim and aim colossus
medivacs and marines stim and attack area that's near the vikings
but i think if i had more zealots, i could hold it off
just an idea for you to think about, hopefully that helps
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On January 13 2011 00:25 ReachTheSky wrote:
Try to control their gas from the earlier stages of the game to delay the protoss/buy you enough time to deal with this. Also, +1 attack air upgrades for vikings helps. You mean do some early one base pressure to force Sentries?
I think the biggest problem with this build is you don't know wth the Protoss has. While they can keep tabs on your stuff for only 25/75, Terran only gets 270 mineral worth scans, and the Protoss never even shows the Phoenixes unless during engagement. Worst of all, Terran needs such a tailored army to defeat that composition.
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I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it
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On January 13 2011 00:17 Touch wrote:
Yeah, that shit is gay.
It's usually 2 Robo Colossus, one Stargate throwing out Phoenixes with the improved creation time, and the excess minerals is used in making Zealots for meat shield.
I can't imagine the usual MMM/Viking ever being able to work against this anymore, as it takes forever for the Vikings kill the Phoenixes, even IF you have air superiority. Zealots take too long to kill, but Colossus will wipe out the ground army
How are you guys dealing with this? If you really want replay, I'll post one, but I'm sure you guys have faced this often enough to know exactly what I'm talking about.
(Don't bother replying to this if your less than 2.8k Diamond or Masters, no point in baseless theorycraft)
Blue Flame Hellions behind Thors.
Long answer: New Phoenix (with CB) soaks up all gas from one base. Therefore even with pure Zealots it needs at least one more Base to support 2 Robo Colossus, more likely 2 additional mining bases if he is decent with Chronoboost and intends to upgrade at least a bit.
If you stay on MMM while P has 3 Bases up and running you are in Trouble.
Against this Composition transition to blueflame Hellions and Thors and keep some Vikings above Thors against Colossi and a potential Voidray switch. Phoenix melt against Thors, Zealots melt against Hellions, Thors withstand Colossi, Vikings get long Range AA Protection from Thors, both T Ground Units need same Upgrades -> Profit
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On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus?
Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs?
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With voidrays now doing additional damage to massive i don't think that thors are such a good answer. The protoss can easily mix in some void rays if he already has the stargate.
I haven't played against this much though, so i am not sure.
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I would like to see a replay actually.
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On January 13 2011 00:47 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:25 ReachTheSky wrote:
Try to control their gas from the earlier stages of the game to delay the protoss/buy you enough time to deal with this. Also, +1 attack air upgrades for vikings helps. You mean do some early one base pressure to force Sentries? I think the biggest problem with this build is you don't know wth the Protoss has. While they can keep tabs on your stuff for only 25/75, Terran only gets 270 mineral worth scans, and the Protoss never even shows the Phoenixes unless during engagement. Worst of all, Terran needs such a tailored army to defeat that composition.
With early pressure to force sentries/make them use up gas, you actually get game sense as to what they are up to. Therefore, you will know what they have based on their unit count/types of units. This gives u an idea of your boundaries that you can work with as a response. Scan should be the last possible resort. Running in 1 hellion can often make the protoss build 2-3 obs(granted they are 25 gas cheaper now, but still)
Terran needing a tailored army to defeat this is correct. Protoss had to tailor their army like they are to beat ours so now we have to do the same.
Also a reaper is good to pop in/out. Scouting with a factory is good as well( just try not to lose it as sometimes u may need it for an extra port, to produce an armory and so forth)
I prefer toss to go phoenix first tbh. It leaves their expo vulnerable early on. Alot of times u can force them to cancel it or even kill it while they think ur contained in ur base because of a couple phoenix.
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On January 13 2011 00:58 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus? Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs?
I wouldn't bother with the thor cannon because more times than not you won't be able to get in range of the collosus to turn it on. Toss can just back up real easily. I feel like the gas can be spent somewhere else better. Also puts ur thors at risk more often then not.
Alot of times throwing up an additional starport is good if they are going heavy phoenix collosus combo.
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On January 13 2011 00:58 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus? Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs?
nah it's pointless you want the thors to help kill the phoenixes, not the colossus. You'll still get vikings to kill those colossus , and yeah medivacs too. It's just impossible to let him have uncontested air control cause no air control = no medivacs, and there is no way to come out on top during fights without medivacs
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On January 13 2011 00:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
Focus the colossi, don't attack the phoenix. If you are worried about the phoenix lifting lots of your stuff you can emp them. I won't worry about all the vikings getting killed, as long as the colossus die, too.
This is the right answer.
I play protoss and use this build a lot. The only reason i make phoenixes is to cause the vikings to shoot at something that isn't my colossus. All my phoenixes die and i could care less because i have destroyed the ground army and usually have enough stalkers to clean up the remaining viking force.
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On January 13 2011 01:07 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:58 Touch wrote:On January 13 2011 00:49 cArn- wrote:
I found this stupidly strong the fist time I encountered it and was bit confused about how to beat this ... The best (read : only) answer to this I think is to get some thors (which are good lategame TvP anyway) and make sure to have some ghosts too, because even if you can beat their army phonixes will just finish off what's left from your army and keep picking off the reinforcements.
In short the same usual composition, just mix in some thors to keep the phoenixes honest and make sure you win the air battle if you decide to go for it Should I go for 255m cannon to stun the Colossus? Also, should I still bother with Vikings/Medivacs? nah it's pointless you want the thors to help kill the phoenixes, not the colossus. You'll still get vikings to kill those colossus , and yeah medivacs too. It's just impossible to let him have uncontested air control cause no air control = no medivacs, and there is no way to come out on top during fights without medivacs Good stuff, many thanks.
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On January 13 2011 01:02 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
With voidrays now doing additional damage to massive i don't think that thors are such a good answer. The protoss can easily mix in some void rays if he already has the stargate.
I haven't played against this much though, so i am not sure.
Thats why you keep producing Vikings instead of Medivacs. And without Medivacs no MM beyond Earlygame, therefore Hellions to get rid of the Zealots. You make make Vikings anyways as soon as you see Colossi (and Phoenix) so there is no additional investment for you if he switches to Voidrays. In addition Hellions dont cost gas and Vikings cost less gas than Medivacs (not to mention the additional costs for Marauders) so you can support a transition to Thors (including Upgrades for both Groundunits at once) with this composition against his composition.
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On January 13 2011 01:09 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 00:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
Focus the colossi, don't attack the phoenix. If you are worried about the phoenix lifting lots of your stuff you can emp them. I won't worry about all the vikings getting killed, as long as the colossus die, too. This is the right answer. I play protoss and use this build a lot. The only reason i make phoenixes is to cause the vikings to shoot at something that isn't my colossus. All my phoenixes die and i could care less because i have destroyed the ground army and usually have enough stalkers to clean up the remaining viking force.
the problem if terran does that is that he's relying on him being way ahead after the fight to win the game, if he kills all of his colossus (if he does so) at the cost of air control he will never get it back again and he'll never be able to have enough vikings for the next fights, nor medivacs.
This could work if phoenixes couldn't do 10 times the map while you're marching to P's base but that's not the case ~~
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On January 13 2011 01:09 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 01:02 IPS.ZeRo wrote:
With voidrays now doing additional damage to massive i don't think that thors are such a good answer. The protoss can easily mix in some void rays if he already has the stargate.
I haven't played against this much though, so i am not sure. Thats why you keep producing Vikings instead of Medivacs. And without Medivacs no MM beyond Earlygame, therefore Hellions to get rid of the Zealots. You make make Vikings anyways as soon as you see Colossi (and Phoenix) so there is no additional investment for you if he switches to Voidrays. In addition Hellions dont cost gas and Vikings cost less gas than Medivacs (not to mention the additional costs for Marauders) so you can support a transition to Thors (including Upgrades for both Groundunits at once) with this composition against his composition. I doubt a Protoss would transition into VRs with every Terran AA unit on the map (Marine/Vikings/Thor).
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EPT
