EPTTvP Phoenix/Colossus - Page 2
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
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joeschmo
United States167 Posts
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DougJDempsey
747 Posts
On January 13 2011 00:38 SONofaGUN wrote: Kite the zealots and stay out of the range of the colossi b/c the only thing that can shoot up in that composition is the phoenix and they just suck against armored units. Focus the colossi first and then once they're gone, take down the zeals and have your vikings move onto the phoenixes. After the zeals are gone, have your marines help out with anti air .... Such theorycrafting. Vikings happen to have 0 armor so phoenix still does fairly well against them. | ||
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adrift
192 Posts
try to emp the sentries. focus the vikings on the collosus don't let them sit there shooting phoenixes once his collosus are dead you can kite his zealot heavy army all day. use emp on the sentries/stalkers and phoenixes if you have enough ghosts also try to force battles whenever you have a good position. trading your bio for his army is fine as long as all the collosus die. its a lot faster for you to reproduce your bio ball than for him to get his collosus count back up | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Allred
United States352 Posts
as a toss player i really like pheonix first not because it contains the terran player but everytime i kill a mule=270 minerals= i kill 2 and the pheonix are pretty much paid for also most terran players either don't react enough or over react with either 2 many marines or turrets not to mention that i don't have to have an observer as much cause i don't need the scouting intel from it and pheonix kill banshee play with good micro- even if my base is vulnerable force field can buy a lot of time | ||
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JustProbes
United States28 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
They're better against raven composition though, since their double attack with a shorter cooldown drain PDDs real fast, but I don't think it was the main idea of the mix. I would feel more threatened by phoenixes late game, as T tends to produce less marines and more marauders because of colossi/storms, while during the early/mid-game when marines still fare quite well you can use them in your ball to cover your vikings. Is OP speaking about a build, or more of an army composition? Phoenixes/colossi is quite gas heavy, and chargeless zealots are somewhat easy to kite, so I guess he's speaking about a lategame composition, when it's not unusual to have robo, twilight council and stargates up. I'd guess putting pressure on the protoss to force him to spend gas could help, but then again, T already had to pressure and harass P pre-patch,so it's not like this would seem an original piece of advice. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
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Penatronic
150 Posts
On January 13 2011 03:00 Whitewing wrote: Short answer: Don't stick with the MMM+viking mix past mid-game. T1-2 army loses to mixed t1-3 army?!?! No way! !!!!!11!!!!!! If he's adding another unit to the mix to counter you, why not add another unit to your mix to counter the counter? | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Seriously enough, instead of being all slick and snarky, perhaps you might take the time to actually consider that OP's willing to discuss about the ways to combat that mix/build (? Don't know yet.), and not about how not to combat said mix? Those posts are about as relevant to the topic as "Don't try hellions" in a thread addressing VR builds. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On January 13 2011 05:06 tuestresfat wrote: maybe you shouldn't go MMM all the freaken time then. -_- really? | ||
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xciLe
Norway213 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
save that gas for faster thors and then siege tanks get siege tanks and thors with marine backup. siege tanks do very well against zeals, thors cost 50/50 more than a voidray and do more damage to ground units, long range air attack against pheonix, and if the toss went voidrays he cannot have much collossi so you pump more thors instead of tanks and go marine/thor against the toss if the toss got collossi AND void ray he cant have too many voids so you go tank thor marine and let the thors and tanks be in front and marines behind to attack the void rays. tanks have a ton of range so if voidrays try to attack you have thors and marines shooting the voids and if collossi try to get in range to fight the marines the tanks take shots lategame you get one starport, dont even put an addon on it, and get 1-2 medivacs JUST to heal your bio. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On January 13 2011 05:57 roymarthyup wrote: i believe terran against toss should start skipping the starport and even start skipping stim / concussive against toss save that gas for faster thors and then siege tanks get siege tanks and thors with marine backup. siege tanks do very well against zeals, thors cost 50/50 more than a voidray and do more damage to ground units, long range air attack against pheonix, and if the toss went voidrays he cannot have much collossi so you pump more thors instead of tanks and go marine/thor against the toss if the toss got collossi AND void ray he cant have too many voids so you go tank thor marine and let the thors and tanks be in front and marines behind to attack the void rays. tanks have a ton of range so if voidrays try to attack you have thors and marines shooting the voids and if collossi try to get in range to fight the marines the tanks take shots lategame you get one starport, dont even put an addon on it, and get 1-2 medivacs JUST to heal your bio. ??????????????? No they dont. They are horrible vs zealots | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
On January 13 2011 01:26 Digamma wrote: .... Such theorycrafting. Vikings happen to have 0 armor so phoenix still does fairly well against them. yea..its not that bad of an idea but its far from realistic in the heat of battle. phoenix also do not suck against viking. as for myself im still working on this.. | ||
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Hyren
United States817 Posts
On January 13 2011 05:21 Penatronic wrote: T1-2 army loses to mixed t1-3 army?!?! No way! !!!!!11!!!!!! If he's adding another unit to the mix to counter you, why not add another unit to your mix to counter the counter? Erm wat? Medivacs and Vikings are tier 3 -_-' | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
On January 13 2011 06:14 Hyren wrote: Erm wat? Medivacs and Vikings are tier 3 -_-' you can't compare tech medivac and tech colossus man. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On January 13 2011 06:01 Sadist wrote: ??????????????? No they dont. They are horrible vs zealots siege tanks are good against zealots/collossi because if you look at the income of 2base terran and 2base toss 2base terran gets 1700 minerals / 500 gas a minute 2base toss gets 1500 minerals / 500 gas a minute i gave the terran 200/min on 2base bonus from mule, but mule actually provides more bonus than 200 but i will call it just 200 because the toss has chrono to even things out and the terran has to lose mining when he makes buildings lets say 3 minutes of income 4500 minerals and 1500 gas for the toss 5100 minerals 1500 gas for the terran lets make the buildings.. hmm 3 rax 3 reactor for marines = 600/150 3 factory 3 techlab for thors and tanks = 600/375 armory = 150/100 siege tech = 100/100 combat shields = 100/100 stim 100/100 starport 150/100 (just for 2 medivacs to heal marines) strike cannons = 150/150 total = 1950 / 1175 6 warpgates for zealots = 900 warpgate upgrade = 50/50 1 stargate = 150/150 2 robo = 400/200 1 robo bay = 200/200 collossi range = 200/200 twilight = 150/100 charge = 200/200 cybercore = 150 total = 2400 / 1100 ((i dont count 150 cost of orbital in this equation because orbital is like a super SCV macro mechanic of the terran. Orbital costs as much as 3 scv's and takes as long as 2 scv's to build and a mule is as good as 6 scv's. So an orbital is just bonus income and its there to compete with chronoboost. chronoboost doesnt give more income after bases are saturated but mule does)) so it costs the toss more to get set up. but thats not the only factor Chronoboost is probably better than the mule mechanic early game and terrans are forced to lose mining time with building scv's while toss does not lose mining time. But mule gives an extra income after mineral saturation AND terran is alot cheaper to get started into midgame strength so i would say this is a slight income advantage for terran so thats why i counted terran as having 200 more income per minute in my original income statements looking at the numbers it seems pretty equal and even for both races to start up their midgame power. . In this scenario the toss would probably go voidray(or pheonix) / collossi / zealot or probably just pure zealot/collossi because the terran has no air the terran goes marine / siege tank / thor with 1 or 2 medivacs to heal stim. lets just form an army with the income i listed 2base terran gets 1700 minerals / 500 gas a minute 2base toss gets 1500 minerals / 500 gas a minute 4500 minerals and 1500 gas for the toss 5100 minerals 1500 gas for the terran 4 thor = 1200/800 2 medivac = 200/200 4 siegetank = 600/500 62 marines = 3100 total = 5100 / 1500 / 100 food 6 collossi = 1800/1200 3 pheonix = 450/300 23 zealots = 2300 total = 4550/1500 / 88 food because terran army costs 12 more food that means you must take away 2 marines to pay for a depot, bringing it down to 60 marines 98food plus a depot. that means its 88food vs 90food. We can reduce the terran by 1 marine again and i think that makes it a good comparison 88vs89 because i gave the toss 50 more minerals for that 23rd zealot so you have 4 thor 2 medivac 4siegetank 59marines VS 6collossi 3pheonix 23zealots 23 zealots will get absolutely shredded in seconds so fast to stimmed marine fire from 59 marines plus 4tanks and 4collossi. I should test these two armies in combat but my gut feeling is the zealots will die way faster than the marines in a pure Amove scenario the pheonix will be able to lift off the tanks but marine micro to just focus the pheonix really quick with thors and marines should kill the pheonix really fast which helps counter the liftoff theres many factors but i think the terran wins. I actually thought of a cool idea, collossi move faster than thors and collossi have RANGE9 and strike cannons is RANGE7 so that means if you micro back collossi you can always avoid strike cannons however i think after the zealots get shredded by charge, a good strategy is to load up your thors into medivacs and medviacs are faster than collossi so you actually might wanna drop your thors in order to strike cannon the collossi | ||
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