Cheap burner cell phones are the worst.
It appears that most of you see me as the scummiest, and I can see your point. I apologize for not playing this game well enough to not get lynched today because I know I'm town. This scares me because like you blazinghand, I don't see how scum can win, which leads me to the conclusion that scum believes that they can still win. This is one reason that even though I think that the most obvious solution (to me at least because I know I'm town) is that keirathi is Drew and stutters is scum (for reasons mentioned earlier). But if that were true, I believe that they have no chance because I don't think Drew is a SK because there hasn't been an extra kill any of the nights.
Now I don't know how I'm even entertaining this and it honestly seems like it may be even a little crazy, but it's the only thing that makes some semblance of sense with the knowledge we have. Now the only reason I can believe this is that I asked iGrok specifically about this. I asked him whether it was 100% confirmed that there are 4 blues in this game. All he said was "There are no roles in the game that are not listed in the OP." and when I clarified my question, all he said was " I know what you meant, and thats my answer." This means that there is no guarantee that all 4 blues exist in the game. For all we know scum could have gotten a safe claim name of the blue not in the game. I mean if you think about it, our blues seem ridiculously strong. They can all become vets and vigs plus other stuff. Even 2 of our blues, hopeless and blazing, were mod confirmed to each other. If we had 4 blues with crazy powers (2 of them mod confirmed to each other), a scum team that only has 3 members, and even Drew in the game, how would the setup be balanced? Even if scum were just like blues, we outnumber them with our blues plus we have the advantage of numbers with VTs. I don't see how they have a chance. This leads me to the conclusion that points are the name of the game.
We know that points do stuff. Hopeless, Blazing, and strong have all claimed to do things with points including becoming a vet, vig, etc. We also know that mementoss had no points on him when he died. Also blazing didn't get 1000 points for killing gonzaw. According to all of you guys, it seems like everyone's point totals are accounted for and there doesn't seem to be an extra 2000 points floating around, so this leads me to believe that scum can use points just like the blues. With all this taken into account, it makes me think that scum realized that they had to take a ridiculous gamble because gonzaw was pretty much outed day 1 and mementoss almost died as well. This gamble was openly fake claiming as blue and begging for points. This is what led me to think that strong might be scum. If you look at the facts it makes sense.
What did strong do day 1? Attack brood hardcore and really try to get him lynched. That in itself isn't that scummy because brood was acting really weird, but the oddity is that strong never mentioned mementoss on his own. He only mentioned it in reference to Adam because Adam made some points on mementoss. See his only post where he mentions mementoss at all during day 1.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2012 00:32 strongandbig wrote:
Blazinghand, I am not saying you are violating the "mafia rules" or being "immoral" as the mafia community would see it. Churlish is a better adjective to describe your behavior than "cheating" would be. Dastardly, you're not being. Essentially, I think that "we joined this game to have fun with minigames in a mafia context, and just ignoring them isn't in the spirit of the game." For sure, you're well within your rights and the game rules to do what you've been doing, but I think the game would be more fun all around if we were all trying to follow the minigame rules and I hope the incentives to do so are stronger next time around.
Going on to Adam. His posts this game "sound weirder" or "sound less genuine" to me than anyone else's except perhaps crossfire, who's playing the mad poet or something like that. It's hard to say whether that's because he's having a hard time posting naturally within the context of the minigame, or if it's because he is uncomfortable being scum or because he's not "being genuine" (I think that's how Sandroba described his scumhunting in some recent game I was following, reading people's posts and looking for people not being genuine etc).
Just read through his filter a couple of times, it's not very long.
K, here's one thing - he starts off with his "meta argument" on BKE, but then drops the read for no reason when he moves on to mementoss. Later, he says "BKE isn't scum to him," I would very much like to know what in BKE's filter gave him that impression because (as I outlined in my previous post) BKE's filter looks pretty terrible to me, and the worst parts are the parts that came after Adam's "meta read".
Mementoss case, I find pretty unpersuasive, I think that comparing pre-game and in-game enthusiasm levels is a valid tactic. "Not posting much of value" or "not having strong opinions" can be a decent case to make if it's clear and pronounced but it's hardly unique to Mementoss at the moment, I would contend that BKE, Djagulingu, maybe hopeless also fall into that category.
Oh, something else - he promises very early on to be like super active, but he is far less active than many other people.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, however, his claims about the meta component to your case are pretty compelling. Qualifying that - I know your case is not mainly based on meta anymore. Really, however, unless you disagree with him that his more recent games are different from your claim about his meta, it should be recognized that that element of the case on him is weak.
Something else you argue - he did originally take a position against BKE and later backtrack on it. Though I've said above that I don't understand why he backtracked, and though I really want to hear his reasoning, and though I think it's scummy to backtrack from one position and jump on another one without explaining yourself, I do think that at least taking a position is better than not taking a position, even if there is scummy backtracking.
Ultimately, here's where I stand. Voting for BKE because I think he's scummier - his positions are less both in number and firmness, and there's also the factor of him doing what I believe is "smokescreening" by talking so much about "how important it is for people to vote in both threads" and then about "how people didn't understand what he meant when he was talking about how important it is for people to vote in both threads", neither of which matter very much. With that said, however, I think a lot of what you say about Adam makes sense, and I wouldn't strenuously object to voting him if that's necessary to get a majority.
Now that post wouldn't really scream scum to me because even some of guys weren't sure on the mementoss case, but then there's this post by strong day 2, when he decided to vote for mementoss.
+ Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 04:17 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 23:11 Mementoss wrote:
ask me anything maybe I can clear shit up for you I bet you're pretty used to clearing shit up, know what I mean? Cleaning the poop deck if you know what I mean? On the pirate ship? In the blockbuster movie, Ass Pirates of the Carribean? + Show Spoiler +Anyway I'm taking a look at Mementoss's filter, since there's momentum building quickly towards his lynch and I want to be sure whether I agree with it. Yesterday I pushed pretty hard against the case on Mementoss. I'm definitely not the only one who though it was terrible, and there were a bunch of things that made me feel that way. The strongest point in the case yesterday was a "general feeling that Mementoss was being wishy-washy and non-committal" - some of the specific points were just pretty bad, like the stuff about Mementoss's change in targets from crossfire to Keirathi, and I thought we had several more likely scum candidates. Combine that with the fact that Chezinu had voted Mementoss for essentially no reason, and that my top scum read BKE was pushing for a Mementoss lynch, and my thinking yesterday was that Mementoss would be a mislynch. This Gonzaw vote stuff seems pretty convincing, however. One point worth noting - Gonzaw used his time-out as a reason not to vote until later, but iGrok specifically said earlier in the game that you can still vote during time-out. I can't really see any reason for Gonzaw to have voted the way he did other than that he felt stuck voting for Mementoss but didn't actually want him to get lynched. So with those two points in mind - yesterday I thought Mementoss would be a mislynch, today there's some compelling new evidence - I'm taking a much closer read through Mementoss's filter. The Gonzaw vote evidence by itself is compelling, but it's not sufficient for me to vote on if Mementoss's filter really does look townie; Gonzaw can't have known he would get vigged, but if he was being really clever he could have preparing for his own potential future lynch, trying to leave evidence in his filter falsely incriminating a townie. So what I'm looking for is other evidence of a scum mindset, scum motivation, etcetera in Mementoss's own posts.
Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote:
Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie! (1) Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now. I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. (2) This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum.
ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that. Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far. ##Vote Crossfire (1) There's the change in opinion about whether or not it's scummy for people to mess up the minigame. I know that changes in opinion to follow the current town consensus can be a scum trait, but I kind of went through a similar thought process. So this is a point to consider but I'm not convinced by it. (2) I could read this as coming from scum, regardless of what crossfire's alignment actually is. The actual argument, "crossfire is posting a lot of illegible bullshit to muck up town," is a legitimate one. However, he starts the paragraph where he makes his best argument to justify his vote with "this is more likely xfire posting as town". This doesn't feel like something a townie would do to me - if a townie genuinely was unsure or leaning town on crossfire's alignment, they wouldn't drop a vote, and if they were sure enough to drop a vote, they wouldn't start off by saying "well this person is probably town, but..." The scum motivation to do this, on the other hand, is (a) if crossfire is town, to give him some wiggle room later if he gets blamed for lynching a townie, or (b) if crossfire is scum, to establish some distancing while setting himself up to unvote and remove the pressure later.Then he makes a giant case on Keirathi, which I've put in a spoiler on account of its length: + Show Spoiler +On November 02 2012 01:52 Mementoss wrote: Keirathi Okay so some preface, I think Keirathi has been slipping through this game without being mentioned too much. So I decided to look at his filter and noticed some scummy things. Lets go through it. Part I: Spreading AccusationsAll game, Keirethi has been spreading accusations very very subtly while never going deeper into them, he has yet to give a strong opinion that he thinks would be good for a lynch. Overall, hes looking active while not doing anything to push a scum lynch. His play seems to represent someone that doesn't care who gets lynched at all. Lets look at a couple examples of this: Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 03:38 Keirathi wrote:
'Kay, so how is my question to Chezinu unimportant? Looks to me like he wanted all of our blues to claim. Maybe its just me, having never played with Chezinu, but that was a pretty anti-town plan.
Now, I did comment on the BKE thing. On its own, its not particularly scummy. Particularly, though, the fact that he hasn't done any kind of early pressure vote in any of his last 7 town games is a bit weird. Still, even then I only think its minorly scummy and would never be enough to make me vote him. His questions at chezinu seem to hint that he thinks what he is doing is scummy and pushing scum agenda, yet he just calls him ut on an anti town plan and never follows up. He says on its own its not scummy, than hints that his meta doesn't match so its a bit "weird". Never commits completely to his opinion on thinking hes scummy, but ends with scummy but not enough to vote him. Gives him an out if he flips red, that he didn't defend him he just couldnt make up his mind. Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 14:00 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 23:13 Mementoss wrote:
Nooooo chezinu ninjad me good thing I checked, I cant do the alphabet very well I have to say it completely out all the time lol. Oh, I agree with that fact that purposely fucking up is scummy because it gives you a free pass not to post, however, BKE seemed to be not understanding the rules at first, and the second time the posts were 3 min apart so its possible for ninja post. Poop, just to clarify this doesn't excuse his ridiuclous joke vote/call out on a "scum slip", it seemed like a desperate attempt to put fault on someone, but he fucked up with the rules. Qonsequently BKE, so far is the only player that stands out to me as somewhat scummy.
Reading chezinus last post, I still don't agree with the mass claim idea. Sit will still end up with everyone claiming audience memebers. Tangerine, chezinu, why do you feeld it was nessecary to give the player list :S ? On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote:
Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie! Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.
The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now. I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum. ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that. Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far. ##Vote Crossfire Xtremely weird change of opinion, there. You go from saying its scummy to blatantly not follow the alphabet rules, to doing it yourself without any indication why you suddenly don't care anymore. Zero sense does that make. Again says its weird, not scummy. Just says it makes zero sense. Keirathi has zero desire to get a lynch going today, and he is afraid to commit. Hes leaving himself many avenues open for later when he decides to vote. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 01:18 Keirathi wrote:On November 01 2012 06:55 Blazinghand wrote:gonzaw-- I'm willing to buy that you did in fact read my post, just not very carefully. On November 01 2012 01:22 Blazinghand wrote:
The game is fine and all, and if you want to banter and go back and forth, do it. But the terrible lobstrosity of a post that crossfire puked into the thread is the kind of thing that doesn't help. There are times to break the rules. In a way, chezinu knows this better than anyone here, but hes too busy being chezinu to lead town.
breaking the rules is not a scum move, any more than simply not posting for an hour is a scum move. tons of people have 1+ hour gaps in between their craptacularly bad alphabetical posts-- you should just make decent, good posts instead if you're not in the middle of a conversation. I don't know how this seems to be dogmatically in favor of using the 1-hour wait method at all times or the rhyming method at all times. You should read my posts more clearly and think a bit harder about the game. Part of the reason I'm on your ass is that you're not playing like you normally do. This focus from you, and the lack of serious pressure on multiple targets, that's not like you. The gonzaw I know, when he plays town, has fullisades of questions for everyone. Why just this one Keirathi case? Where's your usual constant interrogation and probing of everyone in the town? I remember your posts as being kinda annoying and having formatting issues, and maybe being unfocused, but also being unrelenting in their pressure on multiple targets. What gives? Forgive me for not commenting on this sooner sooner, but I just now had the available time to do the research. Go back and look at Aperture 2. He literally made a case/accusation against EVERY SINGLE PLAYER day 1. Its just such a huge disconnect from "everyone is scummy, lets question/accuse them!" to "well, this one guy is kinda scummy because he hasn't posted as much as I expect him to". Just my opinion, but this doesn't really fit the town gonzaw that I remember either. Again spreading some suspicion on gonzaw. Not saying hes scummy per sae but saying his meta doesn't fit aperature 2. And ALSO he doesn't mention that gonzaw was traitor in aperture 2, and he won with scum, so this meta doesn't even make sense. He doesn't follow up with in game evidence or even ask gonzaw to clarify anything. This brings me to my next point. Part II - Doesn't fit the metaEvery game I have played with Keirathi he has been very active and has been a major part in pushing discussion. Even if hes not scumhunting hes pushing discussion in strategic ways. This game has been the very opposite. He is a commentator, active, without pushing discussion to actually find scum. That is all I have to say on this, because meta should just be a supportable part not the main part of a case. Part III - Active LurkerKeirathi has been actually quite active in this game at many times, however he has only put down a few lines every time he has been here, and choses not to discuss the current parts of the thread. He timeline seems to sprinkle at many times in the thread, indicating he is chosing not to contribute in his normal town manner, or he doesn't overly care about finding scum. Just to separate himself from the major lurkers in this game. He also has been excessively lazy this game and making excuses. Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 14:02 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 13:55 Adam4167 wrote:
Perhaps click on his profile and check for yourself?
Quite simple really.
Red he has never been.
Sure, I could have checked myself, but you already did the research  Totally easier to just ask you to share. Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 13:33 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 12:44 Crossfire99 wrote:Gosh, what have we here? On October 31 2012 12:22 Keirathi wrote:
'Sup, everyone. Time to get rid of those pesky musicians. How have you not posted on what has happened so far? I seem to remember the talkative little townie in Aperature that wasn't afraid to comment on anything. Keirathi was enjoying some Diablo 3 with a buddy. Looking back over the posts since I chimed it, it doesn't look like theres really a whole lot to comment on. Maybe its just me, but while this posting restriction is very entertaining, its quite hard to say exactly what you mean. He is apathetic. He knows better than this, there is never gunna be anyting to comment on unless you push the discussion, which keirathi has not beeen trying to do like his normal town self. Making an excuse to blame the mechanics for not posting. ##Unvote
##Vote: Keirathi[-] Other stuff: Alright so Im still not sure on crossfire, but I think there are more likely places to catch scum than him so im taking my vote off him. I can see what hes doing from both alignments, so I shouldn't make a solid choice on only that. His reaction didn't really lead me any further with more of an opinion on him. Probably 2nd scummiest player imo is BKE, I agree with SnB on his thoughts on him. Dingaling, is also an option but it would be strictly policy lynch at this point. I think he is more likely unactive than lurking. When is deadline? 10 hours? We need to somewhat start consolidating or discussing your straight up two best scum reads asaply. However, literally two posts later on in his filter, we go to this: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 07:09 Mementoss wrote:On November 02 2012 06:25 BroodKingEXE wrote:On November 02 2012 06:05 Mementoss wrote:On November 02 2012 04:22 BroodKingEXE wrote:On November 02 2012 01:52 Mementoss wrote: Keirathi Okay so some preface, I think Keirathi has been slipping through this game without being mentioned too much. So I decided to look at his filter and noticed some scummy things. Lets go through it. Part I: Spreading AccusationsAll game, Keirethi has been spreading accusations very very subtly while never going deeper into them, he has yet to give a strong opinion that he thinks would be good for a lynch. Overall, hes looking active while not doing anything to push a scum lynch. His play seems to represent someone that doesn't care who gets lynched at all. Lets look at a couple examples of this: On November 01 2012 03:38 Keirathi wrote:
'Kay, so how is my question to Chezinu unimportant? Looks to me like he wanted all of our blues to claim. Maybe its just me, having never played with Chezinu, but that was a pretty anti-town plan.
Now, I did comment on the BKE thing. On its own, its not particularly scummy. Particularly, though, the fact that he hasn't done any kind of early pressure vote in any of his last 7 town games is a bit weird. Still, even then I only think its minorly scummy and would never be enough to make me vote him. His questions at chezinu seem to hint that he thinks what he is doing is scummy and pushing scum agenda, yet he just calls him ut on an anti town plan and never follows up. He says on its own its not scummy, than hints that his meta doesn't match so its a bit "weird". Never commits completely to his opinion on thinking hes scummy, but ends with scummy but not enough to vote him. Gives him an out if he flips red, that he didn't defend him he just couldnt make up his mind. On November 01 2012 14:00 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 23:13 Mementoss wrote:
Nooooo chezinu ninjad me good thing I checked, I cant do the alphabet very well I have to say it completely out all the time lol. Oh, I agree with that fact that purposely fucking up is scummy because it gives you a free pass not to post, however, BKE seemed to be not understanding the rules at first, and the second time the posts were 3 min apart so its possible for ninja post. Poop, just to clarify this doesn't excuse his ridiuclous joke vote/call out on a "scum slip", it seemed like a desperate attempt to put fault on someone, but he fucked up with the rules. Qonsequently BKE, so far is the only player that stands out to me as somewhat scummy.
Reading chezinus last post, I still don't agree with the mass claim idea. Sit will still end up with everyone claiming audience memebers. Tangerine, chezinu, why do you feeld it was nessecary to give the player list :S ? On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote:
Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie! Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.
The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now. I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum. ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that. Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far. ##Vote Crossfire Xtremely weird change of opinion, there. You go from saying its scummy to blatantly not follow the alphabet rules, to doing it yourself without any indication why you suddenly don't care anymore. Zero sense does that make. Again says its weird, not scummy. Just says it makes zero sense. Keirathi has zero desire to get a lynch going today, and he is afraid to commit. Hes leaving himself many avenues open for later when he decides to vote. On November 02 2012 01:18 Keirathi wrote:On November 01 2012 06:55 Blazinghand wrote:gonzaw-- I'm willing to buy that you did in fact read my post, just not very carefully. On November 01 2012 01:22 Blazinghand wrote:
The game is fine and all, and if you want to banter and go back and forth, do it. But the terrible lobstrosity of a post that crossfire puked into the thread is the kind of thing that doesn't help. There are times to break the rules. In a way, chezinu knows this better than anyone here, but hes too busy being chezinu to lead town.
breaking the rules is not a scum move, any more than simply not posting for an hour is a scum move. tons of people have 1+ hour gaps in between their craptacularly bad alphabetical posts-- you should just make decent, good posts instead if you're not in the middle of a conversation. I don't know how this seems to be dogmatically in favor of using the 1-hour wait method at all times or the rhyming method at all times. You should read my posts more clearly and think a bit harder about the game. Part of the reason I'm on your ass is that you're not playing like you normally do. This focus from you, and the lack of serious pressure on multiple targets, that's not like you. The gonzaw I know, when he plays town, has fullisades of questions for everyone. Why just this one Keirathi case? Where's your usual constant interrogation and probing of everyone in the town? I remember your posts as being kinda annoying and having formatting issues, and maybe being unfocused, but also being unrelenting in their pressure on multiple targets. What gives? Forgive me for not commenting on this sooner sooner, but I just now had the available time to do the research. Go back and look at Aperture 2. He literally made a case/accusation against EVERY SINGLE PLAYER day 1. Its just such a huge disconnect from "everyone is scummy, lets question/accuse them!" to "well, this one guy is kinda scummy because he hasn't posted as much as I expect him to". Just my opinion, but this doesn't really fit the town gonzaw that I remember either. Again spreading some suspicion on gonzaw. Not saying hes scummy per sae but saying his meta doesn't fit aperature 2. And ALSO he doesn't mention that gonzaw was traitor in aperture 2, and he won with scum, so this meta doesn't even make sense. He doesn't follow up with in game evidence or even ask gonzaw to clarify anything. This brings me to my next point. Part II - Doesn't fit the metaEvery game I have played with Keirathi he has been very active and has been a major part in pushing discussion. Even if hes not scumhunting hes pushing discussion in strategic ways. This game has been the very opposite. He is a commentator, active, without pushing discussion to actually find scum. That is all I have to say on this, because meta should just be a supportable part not the main part of a case. Part III - Active LurkerKeirathi has been actually quite active in this game at many times, however he has only put down a few lines every time he has been here, and choses not to discuss the current parts of the thread. He timeline seems to sprinkle at many times in the thread, indicating he is chosing not to contribute in his normal town manner, or he doesn't overly care about finding scum. Just to separate himself from the major lurkers in this game. He also has been excessively lazy this game and making excuses. On October 31 2012 14:02 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 13:55 Adam4167 wrote:
Perhaps click on his profile and check for yourself?
Quite simple really.
Red he has never been.
Sure, I could have checked myself, but you already did the research Totally easier to just ask you to share. On October 31 2012 13:33 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 12:44 Crossfire99 wrote:Gosh, what have we here? On October 31 2012 12:22 Keirathi wrote:
'Sup, everyone. Time to get rid of those pesky musicians. How have you not posted on what has happened so far? I seem to remember the talkative little townie in Aperature that wasn't afraid to comment on anything. Keirathi was enjoying some Diablo 3 with a buddy. Looking back over the posts since I chimed it, it doesn't look like theres really a whole lot to comment on. Maybe its just me, but while this posting restriction is very entertaining, its quite hard to say exactly what you mean. He is apathetic. He knows better than this, there is never gunna be anyting to comment on unless you push the discussion, which keirathi has not beeen trying to do like his normal town self. Making an excuse to blame the mechanics for not posting. ##Unvote
##Vote: Keirathi[-] Other stuff: Alright so Im still not sure on crossfire, but I think there are more likely places to catch scum than him so im taking my vote off him. I can see what hes doing from both alignments, so I shouldn't make a solid choice on only that. His reaction didn't really lead me any further with more of an opinion on him. Probably 2nd scummiest player imo is BKE, I agree with SnB on his thoughts on him. Dingaling, is also an option but it would be strictly policy lynch at this point. I think he is more likely unactive than lurking. When is deadline? 10 hours? We need to somewhat start consolidating or discussing your straight up two best scum reads asaply. Bottom part is so scummy, because you basically say your vote for Keir isn't pushed by your case but by the lack of Xfire's scummness. Cause of this, it shows me that you have no confidence in this case about Keir, because you had to justify a vote change. Dingaling shouldn't even be included in this post as you already have two scum reads, why would you support a policy lynch when you have two scum? Eyeing one of Hopeless posts, I noticed I hadn't unvoted and voted is that what you guys are saying Im am being hypocritical on? BHow does it show that at all. CI was just verifying/ re-evaluating my read on crossfire because people were still mentioning it. Knuckling down here, this is not clarifying anything about your read. Look at what you say "I think there are more likely places to catch scum that him", you initially had a scum read on him, so your read has changed from scum to less likely scum. Moseying down after the bolded part, you say that he is doing neutral posting. No where do you clarify your stance, you just confuse the hell out of us. On my bolded part, it doesn't make sense to say you are unvoting Xfire explicitly because it implies that you think his neutrality is a bigger tell than your own Keir case. X BK, I dont understand what your saying, I already explained to you what I was saying, YOU are confusing the hell out of me, you are saying townies should just tunnel people all game :S, you tunnel hopeless for no reason all day, then only vote off him because BH told you and too, and to save your own ass - since i know my alignment, and i know im town - im going to switch my vote to you - i agree with snbs analysis on you - and all your play this game i cant see from a town point of view at all - this last push against me makes no sense at all and seems a bit desperate, is this another joke vote ##unvote
##vote: broodkingexe So, at first I was like "well regardless of alignment, players should want to stay alive - townies should always try to avoid a mislynch, and since Mementoss was the main other lynch choice from BKE, it doesn't have to be scummy to switch to BKE." But there's a key step missing here - after dropping down that huge case, telling us all how persuaded he is that Keirathi is scum, he puts zero further effort into getting keirathi to be a lynch possibility. If a townie was this convinced that he'd found scum, then his primary responsibility would be to put some work into pushing that lynch, or at the very least into exploring whether other people were willing to vote with him. Instead of doing any of that, he just drops down a big case and leaves it there to sit in his filter, then switches off of it with little to no comment when he needs to save himself. also note the "agree with snb's analysis" without any elaboration or inserting his own analysis, and later on he says "BH is the only guy I have a good town read on" - not a tremendously strong point, but it does kind of smell like buddying people with thread presence who weren't pushing for his lynch.
So in conclusion: Between the way he phrased his early case on crossfire and the disconnect between his attitude towards Keirathi vs how I feel a townie would have behaved, I think there is enough scum motivation in his filter to corroborate the evidence of Gonzaw's voting behavior, which other people have talked about before. Therefore: ##vote: Mementoss
Now the weird thing is that he definitely saw that some people thought (me and adam in the beginning) that mementoss was scummy because he commented on Adam, and he said that Adam's case was unconvincing. How did strong go from not scummy on mementoss and not worthy of agreeing with Adam, to yeah what mementoss did is definitely scummy day 2? It makes no sense.
Also, look back at what strong said when he first popped into the thread Night 1+ Show Spoiler + On November 02 2012 19:49 strongandbig wrote:
Alright everyone lets doooo thiiiiiis
everyone got 1000 points last night
give them to me On November 02 2012 22:11 strongandbig wrote:
Yeah so no one has posted yet. Kind of annoying.
So here's why you should give me your points:
(1) I am town.
(2) I can do bad things to scum with your points.
(3) points are way more valuable when concentrated than they are when spread out. On November 02 2012 22:12 strongandbig wrote:
another topic for discussion tonight: what the fuck do we do with Chezinu? He totally ignored both the serious and silly questions in my post to him, I'm really not sure what to do to get him more involved in the game so we can actually maybe try to get a read on him On November 03 2012 04:09 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:53 Blazinghand wrote:
if i give you my points can you use them to kill Adam I'm not going to comment on exactly what I will do with the points because I want to make it as hard as possible for scum to respond. But Adam will be on the list of targets for sure. (WIFOM that scum team) People, I don't know if you realize but I'm dead serious here. Like I said above, here are the simple facts: (1) I am town (2) I can use points to do bad things to scum (3) the points are a lot more powerful if we concentrate them than they are if they're spread apart. It's getting kind of close to deadline. For this to work well I need as many points as possible so send me your friggen points. On November 03 2012 04:24 strongandbig wrote:Keirathi, here's the post I made yesterday in response to BH's case about Adam. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:32 strongandbig wrote:
Just read through his filter a couple of times, it's not very long.
K, here's one thing - he starts off with his "meta argument" on BKE, but then drops the read for no reason when he moves on to mementoss. Later, he says "BKE isn't scum to him," I would very much like to know what in BKE's filter gave him that impression because (as I outlined in my previous post) BKE's filter looks pretty terrible to me, and the worst parts are the parts that came after Adam's "meta read".
Mementoss case, I find pretty unpersuasive, I think that comparing pre-game and in-game enthusiasm levels is a valid tactic. "Not posting much of value" or "not having strong opinions" can be a decent case to make if it's clear and pronounced but it's hardly unique to Mementoss at the moment, I would contend that BKE, Djagulingu, maybe hopeless also fall into that category.
Oh, something else - he promises very early on to be like super active, but he is far less active than many other people.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, however, his claims about the meta component to your case are pretty compelling. Qualifying that - I know your case is not mainly based on meta anymore. Really, however, unless you disagree with him that his more recent games are different from your claim about his meta, it should be recognized that that element of the case on him is weak.
Something else you argue - he did originally take a position against BKE and later backtrack on it. Though I've said above that I don't understand why he backtracked, and though I really want to hear his reasoning, and though I think it's scummy to backtrack from one position and jump on another one without explaining yourself, I do think that at least taking a position is better than not taking a position, even if there is scummy backtracking.
After this post, Adam has posted a few more times. Most of the "word volume" in there was in a couple of big posts about Gonzaw's vote on Mementoss. The main thing is a connection theory, I guess, based on the argument "mementoss is scum, gonzaw withheld his vote on mementoss until he was sure that it wouldn't get mementoss lynched." The problem with this is - I find his mementoss case not compelling, but he's still using it as the basis to build theories. (that said - his gonzaw stuff is actually pretty interesting. Regardless of mementoss's alignment, it is pretty odd how Gonzaw withheld his vote like that. Even without the connection theory, there could be scum motivation there - maybe Gonzaw felt obligated to vote mementoss given his earlier posts, but didn't want to be held responsible for voting a townie?) Then there's this post from Adam, which is scummy as all fuck IMO: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 17:43 Adam4167 wrote:
And as I have said, if you would like my opinion on a specific player, then simply ask. I do not post my thoughts for the sake of just posting as I find it needlessly inflates the thread.
If I was someone else thinking 'damn this Adam guy is scum' I'd be wrong, since he's not. like a few things - "I don't post thoughts for the sake of just posting," if he was Gonzaw then this would be a valid sentiment but from the vast majority of players, more thread presence as a townie makes it easier to establish your innocence and helps the town. Second, "if you want me to talk about anyone specific then ask" - I could be going against popular opinion here, but I think that while trying to get specific players to talk about each other is a townie thing to do - well, at least if you choose the two players correctly - I don't think just going "If you push me on something then I'll talk about it, but otherwise I'm gonna keep my mouth shut" is a very town thing to do. On November 04 2012 04:17 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 23:11 Mementoss wrote:
ask me anything maybe I can clear shit up for you I bet you're pretty used to clearing shit up, know what I mean? Cleaning the poop deck if you know what I mean? On the pirate ship? In the blockbuster movie, Ass Pirates of the Carribean? + Show Spoiler +Anyway I'm taking a look at Mementoss's filter, since there's momentum building quickly towards his lynch and I want to be sure whether I agree with it. Yesterday I pushed pretty hard against the case on Mementoss. I'm definitely not the only one who though it was terrible, and there were a bunch of things that made me feel that way. The strongest point in the case yesterday was a "general feeling that Mementoss was being wishy-washy and non-committal" - some of the specific points were just pretty bad, like the stuff about Mementoss's change in targets from crossfire to Keirathi, and I thought we had several more likely scum candidates. Combine that with the fact that Chezinu had voted Mementoss for essentially no reason, and that my top scum read BKE was pushing for a Mementoss lynch, and my thinking yesterday was that Mementoss would be a mislynch. This Gonzaw vote stuff seems pretty convincing, however. One point worth noting - Gonzaw used his time-out as a reason not to vote until later, but iGrok specifically said earlier in the game that you can still vote during time-out. I can't really see any reason for Gonzaw to have voted the way he did other than that he felt stuck voting for Mementoss but didn't actually want him to get lynched. So with those two points in mind - yesterday I thought Mementoss would be a mislynch, today there's some compelling new evidence - I'm taking a much closer read through Mementoss's filter. The Gonzaw vote evidence by itself is compelling, but it's not sufficient for me to vote on if Mementoss's filter really does look townie; Gonzaw can't have known he would get vigged, but if he was being really clever he could have preparing for his own potential future lynch, trying to leave evidence in his filter falsely incriminating a townie. So what I'm looking for is other evidence of a scum mindset, scum motivation, etcetera in Mementoss's own posts.
Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote:
Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie! (1) Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now. I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. (2) This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum.
ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that. Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far. ##Vote Crossfire (1) There's the change in opinion about whether or not it's scummy for people to mess up the minigame. I know that changes in opinion to follow the current town consensus can be a scum trait, but I kind of went through a similar thought process. So this is a point to consider but I'm not convinced by it. (2) I could read this as coming from scum, regardless of what crossfire's alignment actually is. The actual argument, "crossfire is posting a lot of illegible bullshit to muck up town," is a legitimate one. However, he starts the paragraph where he makes his best argument to justify his vote with "this is more likely xfire posting as town". This doesn't feel like something a townie would do to me - if a townie genuinely was unsure or leaning town on crossfire's alignment, they wouldn't drop a vote, and if they were sure enough to drop a vote, they wouldn't start off by saying "well this person is probably town, but..." The scum motivation to do this, on the other hand, is (a) if crossfire is town, to give him some wiggle room later if he gets blamed for lynching a townie, or (b) if crossfire is scum, to establish some distancing while setting himself up to unvote and remove the pressure later. Then he makes a giant case on Keirathi, which I've put in a spoiler on account of its length: + Show Spoiler +On November 02 2012 01:52 Mementoss wrote: Keirathi Okay so some preface, I think Keirathi has been slipping through this game without being mentioned too much. So I decided to look at his filter and noticed some scummy things. Lets go through it. Part I: Spreading AccusationsAll game, Keirethi has been spreading accusations very very subtly while never going deeper into them, he has yet to give a strong opinion that he thinks would be good for a lynch. Overall, hes looking active while not doing anything to push a scum lynch. His play seems to represent someone that doesn't care who gets lynched at all. Lets look at a couple examples of this: Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 03:38 Keirathi wrote:
'Kay, so how is my question to Chezinu unimportant? Looks to me like he wanted all of our blues to claim. Maybe its just me, having never played with Chezinu, but that was a pretty anti-town plan.
Now, I did comment on the BKE thing. On its own, its not particularly scummy. Particularly, though, the fact that he hasn't done any kind of early pressure vote in any of his last 7 town games is a bit weird. Still, even then I only think its minorly scummy and would never be enough to make me vote him. His questions at chezinu seem to hint that he thinks what he is doing is scummy and pushing scum agenda, yet he just calls him ut on an anti town plan and never follows up. He says on its own its not scummy, than hints that his meta doesn't match so its a bit "weird". Never commits completely to his opinion on thinking hes scummy, but ends with scummy but not enough to vote him. Gives him an out if he flips red, that he didn't defend him he just couldnt make up his mind. Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 14:00 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 23:13 Mementoss wrote:
Nooooo chezinu ninjad me good thing I checked, I cant do the alphabet very well I have to say it completely out all the time lol. Oh, I agree with that fact that purposely fucking up is scummy because it gives you a free pass not to post, however, BKE seemed to be not understanding the rules at first, and the second time the posts were 3 min apart so its possible for ninja post. Poop, just to clarify this doesn't excuse his ridiuclous joke vote/call out on a "scum slip", it seemed like a desperate attempt to put fault on someone, but he fucked up with the rules. Qonsequently BKE, so far is the only player that stands out to me as somewhat scummy.
Reading chezinus last post, I still don't agree with the mass claim idea. Sit will still end up with everyone claiming audience memebers. Tangerine, chezinu, why do you feeld it was nessecary to give the player list :S ? On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote:
Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie! Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.
The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now. I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum. ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that. Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far. ##Vote Crossfire Xtremely weird change of opinion, there. You go from saying its scummy to blatantly not follow the alphabet rules, to doing it yourself without any indication why you suddenly don't care anymore. Zero sense does that make. Again says its weird, not scummy. Just says it makes zero sense. Keirathi has zero desire to get a lynch going today, and he is afraid to commit. Hes leaving himself many avenues open for later when he decides to vote. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 01:18 Keirathi wrote:On November 01 2012 06:55 Blazinghand wrote:gonzaw-- I'm willing to buy that you did in fact read my post, just not very carefully. On November 01 2012 01:22 Blazinghand wrote:
The game is fine and all, and if you want to banter and go back and forth, do it. But the terrible lobstrosity of a post that crossfire puked into the thread is the kind of thing that doesn't help. There are times to break the rules. In a way, chezinu knows this better than anyone here, but hes too busy being chezinu to lead town.
breaking the rules is not a scum move, any more than simply not posting for an hour is a scum move. tons of people have 1+ hour gaps in between their craptacularly bad alphabetical posts-- you should just make decent, good posts instead if you're not in the middle of a conversation. I don't know how this seems to be dogmatically in favor of using the 1-hour wait method at all times or the rhyming method at all times. You should read my posts more clearly and think a bit harder about the game. Part of the reason I'm on your ass is that you're not playing like you normally do. This focus from you, and the lack of serious pressure on multiple targets, that's not like you. The gonzaw I know, when he plays town, has fullisades of questions for everyone. Why just this one Keirathi case? Where's your usual constant interrogation and probing of everyone in the town? I remember your posts as being kinda annoying and having formatting issues, and maybe being unfocused, but also being unrelenting in their pressure on multiple targets. What gives? Forgive me for not commenting on this sooner sooner, but I just now had the available time to do the research. Go back and look at Aperture 2. He literally made a case/accusation against EVERY SINGLE PLAYER day 1. Its just such a huge disconnect from "everyone is scummy, lets question/accuse them!" to "well, this one guy is kinda scummy because he hasn't posted as much as I expect him to". Just my opinion, but this doesn't really fit the town gonzaw that I remember either. Again spreading some suspicion on gonzaw. Not saying hes scummy per sae but saying his meta doesn't fit aperature 2. And ALSO he doesn't mention that gonzaw was traitor in aperture 2, and he won with scum, so this meta doesn't even make sense. He doesn't follow up with in game evidence or even ask gonzaw to clarify anything. This brings me to my next point. Part II - Doesn't fit the metaEvery game I have played with Keirathi he has been very active and has been a major part in pushing discussion. Even if hes not scumhunting hes pushing discussion in strategic ways. This game has been the very opposite. He is a commentator, active, without pushing discussion to actually find scum. That is all I have to say on this, because meta should just be a supportable part not the main part of a case. Part III - Active LurkerKeirathi has been actually quite active in this game at many times, however he has only put down a few lines every time he has been here, and choses not to discuss the current parts of the thread. He timeline seems to sprinkle at many times in the thread, indicating he is chosing not to contribute in his normal town manner, or he doesn't overly care about finding scum. Just to separate himself from the major lurkers in this game. He also has been excessively lazy this game and making excuses. Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 14:02 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 13:55 Adam4167 wrote:
Perhaps click on his profile and check for yourself?
Quite simple really.
Red he has never been.
Sure, I could have checked myself, but you already did the research Totally easier to just ask you to share. Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 13:33 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 12:44 Crossfire99 wrote:Gosh, what have we here? On October 31 2012 12:22 Keirathi wrote:
'Sup, everyone. Time to get rid of those pesky musicians. How have you not posted on what has happened so far? I seem to remember the talkative little townie in Aperature that wasn't afraid to comment on anything. Keirathi was enjoying some Diablo 3 with a buddy. Looking back over the posts since I chimed it, it doesn't look like theres really a whole lot to comment on. Maybe its just me, but while this posting restriction is very entertaining, its quite hard to say exactly what you mean. He is apathetic. He knows better than this, there is never gunna be anyting to comment on unless you push the discussion, which keirathi has not beeen trying to do like his normal town self. Making an excuse to blame the mechanics for not posting. ##Unvote
##Vote: Keirathi[-] Other stuff: Alright so Im still not sure on crossfire, but I think there are more likely places to catch scum than him so im taking my vote off him. I can see what hes doing from both alignments, so I shouldn't make a solid choice on only that. His reaction didn't really lead me any further with more of an opinion on him. Probably 2nd scummiest player imo is BKE, I agree with SnB on his thoughts on him. Dingaling, is also an option but it would be strictly policy lynch at this point. I think he is more likely unactive than lurking. When is deadline? 10 hours? We need to somewhat start consolidating or discussing your straight up two best scum reads asaply. However, literally two posts later on in his filter, we go to this: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 07:09 Mementoss wrote:On November 02 2012 06:25 BroodKingEXE wrote:On November 02 2012 06:05 Mementoss wrote:On November 02 2012 04:22 BroodKingEXE wrote:On November 02 2012 01:52 Mementoss wrote: Keirathi Okay so some preface, I think Keirathi has been slipping through this game without being mentioned too much. So I decided to look at his filter and noticed some scummy things. Lets go through it. Part I: Spreading AccusationsAll game, Keirethi has been spreading accusations very very subtly while never going deeper into them, he has yet to give a strong opinion that he thinks would be good for a lynch. Overall, hes looking active while not doing anything to push a scum lynch. His play seems to represent someone that doesn't care who gets lynched at all. Lets look at a couple examples of this: On November 01 2012 03:38 Keirathi wrote:
'Kay, so how is my question to Chezinu unimportant? Looks to me like he wanted all of our blues to claim. Maybe its just me, having never played with Chezinu, but that was a pretty anti-town plan.
Now, I did comment on the BKE thing. On its own, its not particularly scummy. Particularly, though, the fact that he hasn't done any kind of early pressure vote in any of his last 7 town games is a bit weird. Still, even then I only think its minorly scummy and would never be enough to make me vote him. His questions at chezinu seem to hint that he thinks what he is doing is scummy and pushing scum agenda, yet he just calls him ut on an anti town plan and never follows up. He says on its own its not scummy, than hints that his meta doesn't match so its a bit "weird". Never commits completely to his opinion on thinking hes scummy, but ends with scummy but not enough to vote him. Gives him an out if he flips red, that he didn't defend him he just couldnt make up his mind. On November 01 2012 14:00 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 23:13 Mementoss wrote:
Nooooo chezinu ninjad me good thing I checked, I cant do the alphabet very well I have to say it completely out all the time lol. Oh, I agree with that fact that purposely fucking up is scummy because it gives you a free pass not to post, however, BKE seemed to be not understanding the rules at first, and the second time the posts were 3 min apart so its possible for ninja post. Poop, just to clarify this doesn't excuse his ridiuclous joke vote/call out on a "scum slip", it seemed like a desperate attempt to put fault on someone, but he fucked up with the rules. Qonsequently BKE, so far is the only player that stands out to me as somewhat scummy.
Reading chezinus last post, I still don't agree with the mass claim idea. Sit will still end up with everyone claiming audience memebers. Tangerine, chezinu, why do you feeld it was nessecary to give the player list :S ? On November 01 2012 06:08 Mementoss wrote:On October 31 2012 11:38 Blazinghand wrote:
Love to. My reason is that at this point in the thread he is the scummiest. "No way," you say, "he hasn't posted yet!" Often, that is reason enough. Proof of his scumminess is that he is a general liability.
Quack is the sound ducks make. Really though I'm gonna change my vote to Adam there's no way that post is town. Seriously if he was reforming posts he'd reform his post into that post instead of making a complaining post. Trying to get cred when he deserves none. Untie! Going to gym, fuck the rules. Only got 5 minutes but would like to comment on a few things.
The above is your case against Adam right? I don't consider it the strongest case, as you above seem pretty confident in it, but the fact that he hasn't been back to contribute is pretty un easing. leaning scummy on him right now. I half agree to what you say about crossfire too blazinghand. His posts were unreadable thats for sure. I had to re-read several paragraphs 3 times before I even understood what the point was, and then it didn't even deliverable the point well -_-. This is more likely xfire posting as town because he was being ridiculous, but I also think there is a possibility he started posting these long unreadable fluffy statements, so that maybe someone else would follow his ridiculous posting style and muck up the town completely. Thats scum intereference. Also, he actually looks to the non-reader, that he is contributing more than most, when really, hes more interested in literary skills and looking town, than actually finding scum. ATM I would be happy to vote either Xfire or BKE, (which I stated earlier why I thought his fake joke stuff seemed scummy, while his purposely?? getting restrictions wasn't liekly scummy), could go for Adam too, but I would rather wait for him to come into the thread again before doing that. Gunna lay down a vote Xfire atm. Need to re-read the thread and consider all the options, I have been either asleep or at work for this whole thread thus far. ##Vote Crossfire Xtremely weird change of opinion, there. You go from saying its scummy to blatantly not follow the alphabet rules, to doing it yourself without any indication why you suddenly don't care anymore. Zero sense does that make. Again says its weird, not scummy. Just says it makes zero sense. Keirathi has zero desire to get a lynch going today, and he is afraid to commit. Hes leaving himself many avenues open for later when he decides to vote. On November 02 2012 01:18 Keirathi wrote:On November 01 2012 06:55 Blazinghand wrote:gonzaw-- I'm willing to buy that you did in fact read my post, just not very carefully. On November 01 2012 01:22 Blazinghand wrote:
The game is fine and all, and if you want to banter and go back and forth, do it. But the terrible lobstrosity of a post that crossfire puked into the thread is the kind of thing that doesn't help. There are times to break the rules. In a way, chezinu knows this better than anyone here, but hes too busy being chezinu to lead town.
breaking the rules is not a scum move, any more than simply not posting for an hour is a scum move. tons of people have 1+ hour gaps in between their craptacularly bad alphabetical posts-- you should just make decent, good posts instead if you're not in the middle of a conversation. I don't know how this seems to be dogmatically in favor of using the 1-hour wait method at all times or the rhyming method at all times. You should read my posts more clearly and think a bit harder about the game. Part of the reason I'm on your ass is that you're not playing like you normally do. This focus from you, and the lack of serious pressure on multiple targets, that's not like you. The gonzaw I know, when he plays town, has fullisades of questions for everyone. Why just this one Keirathi case? Where's your usual constant interrogation and probing of everyone in the town? I remember your posts as being kinda annoying and having formatting issues, and maybe being unfocused, but also being unrelenting in their pressure on multiple targets. What gives? Forgive me for not commenting on this sooner sooner, but I just now had the available time to do the research. Go back and look at Aperture 2. He literally made a case/accusation against EVERY SINGLE PLAYER day 1. Its just such a huge disconnect from "everyone is scummy, lets question/accuse them!" to "well, this one guy is kinda scummy because he hasn't posted as much as I expect him to". Just my opinion, but this doesn't really fit the town gonzaw that I remember either. Again spreading some suspicion on gonzaw. Not saying hes scummy per sae but saying his meta doesn't fit aperature 2. And ALSO he doesn't mention that gonzaw was traitor in aperture 2, and he won with scum, so this meta doesn't even make sense. He doesn't follow up with in game evidence or even ask gonzaw to clarify anything. This brings me to my next point. Part II - Doesn't fit the metaEvery game I have played with Keirathi he has been very active and has been a major part in pushing discussion. Even if hes not scumhunting hes pushing discussion in strategic ways. This game has been the very opposite. He is a commentator, active, without pushing discussion to actually find scum. That is all I have to say on this, because meta should just be a supportable part not the main part of a case. Part III - Active LurkerKeirathi has been actually quite active in this game at many times, however he has only put down a few lines every time he has been here, and choses not to discuss the current parts of the thread. He timeline seems to sprinkle at many times in the thread, indicating he is chosing not to contribute in his normal town manner, or he doesn't overly care about finding scum. Just to separate himself from the major lurkers in this game. He also has been excessively lazy this game and making excuses. On October 31 2012 14:02 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 13:55 Adam4167 wrote:
Perhaps click on his profile and check for yourself?
Quite simple really.
Red he has never been.
Sure, I could have checked myself, but you already did the research Totally easier to just ask you to share. On October 31 2012 13:33 Keirathi wrote:On October 31 2012 12:44 Crossfire99 wrote:Gosh, what have we here? On October 31 2012 12:22 Keirathi wrote:
'Sup, everyone. Time to get rid of those pesky musicians. How have you not posted on what has happened so far? I seem to remember the talkative little townie in Aperature that wasn't afraid to comment on anything. Keirathi was enjoying some Diablo 3 with a buddy. Looking back over the posts since I chimed it, it doesn't look like theres really a whole lot to comment on. Maybe its just me, but while this posting restriction is very entertaining, its quite hard to say exactly what you mean. He is apathetic. He knows better than this, there is never gunna be anyting to comment on unless you push the discussion, which keirathi has not beeen trying to do like his normal town self. Making an excuse to blame the mechanics for not posting. ##Unvote
##Vote: Keirathi[-] Other stuff: Alright so Im still not sure on crossfire, but I think there are more likely places to catch scum than him so im taking my vote off him. I can see what hes doing from both alignments, so I shouldn't make a solid choice on only that. His reaction didn't really lead me any further with more of an opinion on him. Probably 2nd scummiest player imo is BKE, I agree with SnB on his thoughts on him. Dingaling, is also an option but it would be strictly policy lynch at this point. I think he is more likely unactive than lurking. When is deadline? 10 hours? We need to somewhat start consolidating or discussing your straight up two best scum reads asaply. Bottom part is so scummy, because you basically say your vote for Keir isn't pushed by your case but by the lack of Xfire's scummness. Cause of this, it shows me that you have no confidence in this case about Keir, because you had to justify a vote change. Dingaling shouldn't even be included in this post as you already have two scum reads, why would you support a policy lynch when you have two scum? Eyeing one of Hopeless posts, I noticed I hadn't unvoted and voted is that what you guys are saying Im am being hypocritical on? BHow does it show that at all. CI was just verifying/ re-evaluating my read on crossfire because people were still mentioning it. Knuckling down here, this is not clarifying anything about your read. Look at what you say "I think there are more likely places to catch scum that him", you initially had a scum read on him, so your read has changed from scum to less likely scum. Moseying down after the bolded part, you say that he is doing neutral posting. No where do you clarify your stance, you just confuse the hell out of us. On my bolded part, it doesn't make sense to say you are unvoting Xfire explicitly because it implies that you think his neutrality is a bigger tell than your own Keir case. X BK, I dont understand what your saying, I already explained to you what I was saying, YOU are confusing the hell out of me, you are saying townies should just tunnel people all game :S, you tunnel hopeless for no reason all day, then only vote off him because BH told you and too, and to save your own ass - since i know my alignment, and i know im town - im going to switch my vote to you - i agree with snbs analysis on you - and all your play this game i cant see from a town point of view at all - this last push against me makes no sense at all and seems a bit desperate, is this another joke vote ##unvote
##vote: broodkingexe So, at first I was like "well regardless of alignment, players should want to stay alive - townies should always try to avoid a mislynch, and since Mementoss was the main other lynch choice from BKE, it doesn't have to be scummy to switch to BKE." But there's a key step missing here - after dropping down that huge case, telling us all how persuaded he is that Keirathi is scum, he puts zero further effort into getting keirathi to be a lynch possibility. If a townie was this convinced that he'd found scum, then his primary responsibility would be to put some work into pushing that lynch, or at the very least into exploring whether other people were willing to vote with him. Instead of doing any of that, he just drops down a big case and leaves it there to sit in his filter, then switches off of it with little to no comment when he needs to save himself.also note the "agree with snb's analysis" without any elaboration or inserting his own analysis, and later on he says "BH is the only guy I have a good town read on" - not a tremendously strong point, but it does kind of smell like buddying people with thread presence who weren't pushing for his lynch.
So in conclusion: Between the way he phrased his early case on crossfire and the disconnect between his attitude towards Keirathi vs how I feel a townie would have behaved, I think there is enough scum motivation in his filter to corroborate the evidence of Gonzaw's voting behavior, which other people have talked about before. Therefore: ##vote: Mementoss On November 03 2012 04:24 strongandbig wrote:Keirathi, here's the post I made yesterday in response to BH's case about Adam. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:32 strongandbig wrote:
Just read through his filter a couple of times, it's not very long.
K, here's one thing - he starts off with his "meta argument" on BKE, but then drops the read for no reason when he moves on to mementoss. Later, he says "BKE isn't scum to him," I would very much like to know what in BKE's filter gave him that impression because (as I outlined in my previous post) BKE's filter looks pretty terrible to me, and the worst parts are the parts that came after Adam's "meta read".
Mementoss case, I find pretty unpersuasive, I think that comparing pre-game and in-game enthusiasm levels is a valid tactic. "Not posting much of value" or "not having strong opinions" can be a decent case to make if it's clear and pronounced but it's hardly unique to Mementoss at the moment, I would contend that BKE, Djagulingu, maybe hopeless also fall into that category.
Oh, something else - he promises very early on to be like super active, but he is far less active than many other people.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, however, his claims about the meta component to your case are pretty compelling. Qualifying that - I know your case is not mainly based on meta anymore. Really, however, unless you disagree with him that his more recent games are different from your claim about his meta, it should be recognized that that element of the case on him is weak.
Something else you argue - he did originally take a position against BKE and later backtrack on it. Though I've said above that I don't understand why he backtracked, and though I really want to hear his reasoning, and though I think it's scummy to backtrack from one position and jump on another one without explaining yourself, I do think that at least taking a position is better than not taking a position, even if there is scummy backtracking.
After this post, Adam has posted a few more times. Most of the "word volume" in there was in a couple of big posts about Gonzaw's vote on Mementoss. The main thing is a connection theory, I guess, based on the argument "mementoss is scum, gonzaw withheld his vote on mementoss until he was sure that it wouldn't get mementoss lynched." The problem with this is - I find his mementoss case not compelling, but he's still using it as the basis to build theories. (that said - his gonzaw stuff is actually pretty interesting. Regardless of mementoss's alignment, it is pretty odd how Gonzaw withheld his vote like that. Even without the connection theory, there could be scum motivation there - maybe Gonzaw felt obligated to vote mementoss given his earlier posts, but didn't want to be held responsible for voting a townie?)Then there's this post from Adam, which is scummy as all fuck IMO: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 17:43 Adam4167 wrote:
And as I have said, if you would like my opinion on a specific player, then simply ask. I do not post my thoughts for the sake of just posting as I find it needlessly inflates the thread.
If I was someone else thinking 'damn this Adam guy is scum' I'd be wrong, since he's not. like a few things - "I don't post thoughts for the sake of just posting," if he was Gonzaw then this would be a valid sentiment but from the vast majority of players, more thread presence as a townie makes it easier to establish your innocence and helps the town. Second, "if you want me to talk about anyone specific then ask" - I could be going against popular opinion here, but I think that while trying to get specific players to talk about each other is a townie thing to do - well, at least if you choose the two players correctly - I don't think just going "If you push me on something then I'll talk about it, but otherwise I'm gonna keep my mouth shut" is a very town thing to do. On November 04 2012 04:17 strongandbig wrote:
So what I'm looking for is other evidence of a scum mindset, scum motivation, etcetera in Mementoss's own posts.
that he had to find evidence in mementoss's filter and not base everything on connection. Again but the problem was he already read through those cases and said they had nothing too them!
Cool let's jump ahead to Day 3. This isn't the strongest stuff. More circumstantial but I'll through it here anyway and see what you guys think. In the post where strong discussed what went down last night I found something odd.
+ Show Spoiler + On November 07 2012 11:17 strongandbig wrote:
World's worst type of flooring surface: The flayed skins of your enemies. Believe me, I've tried it, it's slippery as fuck and it smells terrible after a few weeks.
So first off - really sorry that it took me so long to get in here, I should at least have dropped in with an update and an action claim so you guys could work on that. I've been kind of fucked up, it's crunch time at work and today I was supposed to transition to the night shift, so I spent most of the day lying in bed trying to sleep and feeling crummy. Now I'm sitting at a computer feeling crummy, but at least the advantage of the night shift is that I can spend a little time on mafia...
(plus the election results keep distracting me QQ) (Romney - the candidate for, in the mafia parlance, the "informed minority")
Okay so first off - my night actions. My night actions were a little less successful tonight than last night; I did not get a hit notification, so I can't take responsibility for stopping another scum bullet. No townies died, which is all that really matters. I would like to know if either BH or hopeless took a hit, because if neither of them did then it probably means Drew Carrey is in the game and is bulletproof. I doubt he's an SK, because there have been zero non-vigi NKs, but given the weirdness in this game I could believe he has some kind of weird wincon involving points or the minigames or something.
So here's what I actually did - I splurged a shitload of points to become an "invincible super-investigator".
- I bought an extra life. I was bluffing about not doing it, I hoped I could psyche scum into shooting me again.
- I also used the "mirror" power. I was really hoping scum would shoot me, lol.
- I used "Track" on crossfire. I used this one to soak the roleblock. That worked, at least.
- I tried to use a DT check on crossfire. Unfortunately, this was next in line and got roleblocked as well. I guess if I could figure out that buying a useless power would eat up a roleblock, scum could as well.
- I used a DT check on Chezinu. (he came back town, lol). I thought about using a vig shot, but I didn't feel quite as confident about it as BH did.
- I also used a "Track" on Adam. I didn't get any results. I wanted to save some points, which is why I used "track" instead of a "DT check," and he was my third scum read after Chezinu and Crossfire.
- I bought the special "random powers" package. Kind of got fucked on that one. I'd rather not say exactly what I got there, because it will keep scum guessing, but if I used (it/any of them), (it/they) didn't give me any results.
I currently have 2500 points remaining. There's a very good reason why I'm saving them.
So here's the other reason it's taken me so long to post today: point claims. I've spent like an hour with a spreadsheet trying to figure this out.
Here's the kicker: There's a chance that everyone is telling the truth.
I'll just post the data:
Pts | Claim
N1:
1000 | earned myself
1000 | xfire
500 | Keirathi (confirmed-ish)
500 | stutters
Total points after N1: 3000
Points used N1: 1000 (tracker, veteran)
N2:
1000 | earned myself
1500 | keirathi (confirmed-ish)
1000 | stutters
1000 | xfire
Total points after N2: 6500
Points used N2: 5000
Total points after N2: 1500
As I was researching this post, I noticed that things didn't add up, so I PM'd iGrok and added
1000 | Adam (in thread on day 1)
Apparently I should have had 1000 more points day1 than I actually did. So now I have 2500 points.
SO: assuming that Chezinu never sent me points, and that Adam didn't send me points during N2, it's possible that everyone is telling the truth. Unfortunately, this isn't conclusive in either direction. Chezinu could easily have sent points my way without telling anyone, and Adam probably didn't think he was about to die to a vigshot.
World's worst medical treatment?
What's weird about it is the way he lists his actions. He lists the actions done to me in the middle of his list and says they were roleblocked. Both of them were roleblocked. What is really weird is that when I asked iGrok what order actions are roleblocked, he said it is like MTG stack, so that means last gets roleblocked first. That's weird because when you normally write down a long list like strong's list of his actions, you write them in the order you originally wrote them, but strong wrote my actions in the middle of his list and they were roleblocked. It is also very convenient that both of his actions on me were roleblocked because he now has plausible deniability when I flip town (if you guys still choose to lynch me).
Also, we have no way of knowing if he actually took a shot night 1. He could have made that up or actually had one of scum buddies shoot him knowing that he can become a vet. this would have been done in case anyone decided to perform any watches or tracks.
The weird thing about all this, is that I actually see him as more scummy than stutters now and think strong is the last scum. I really want to hear everyone's opinion on this. I might be crazy for even suggesting this, but please look at the actual merits of my case and tell me what you think. I hope I'm wrong and that stutters is the last scum because we should easily win in that case, but I'm not so sure of that fact if strong is indeed the last scum.
Tl;dr: Nope, it's vitally important that you all read this and tell me if you think this case has any merit whatsoever. Town's chance at winning could be seriously hampered if I'm right, which I actually hope I'm not.
World's worst mode of transportation?
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EPT
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