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On April 05 2011 06:09 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 02:20 L wrote:
I get banned because a certain mod doesn't like me.
So I stopped posting in general. The end. With 2 of your 3 bans coming from me, I'm guessing I know where this is being directed.  Anywho, you flatter yourself a bit too much if you think I don't like you. Honestly, I don't dislike you or even really put that much thought into you as a poster. I did, however, notice your uncanny ability to completely derail discussion/debate threads. That's exactly what your first ban from me was for (a mere 2 days), and only a month later, you did the SAME THING again and received a 1 week ban. I truly don't care if you continue to post or not, even in debate threads. If you want to, fine. If you get very spirited in the process, great. However, that does not excuse you from still being respectful to other posters on this website. When you get so heated that you're throwing personal insults at other posters, can we agree it's time to take a break?
Sort of offtopic, but I read "uncanny ability to completely derail ..." and I couldn't help but recall my feeling that I have an uncanny ability to complete bring threads to a standstill~!
Seriously, maybe I'm just being a bit self-centered, but I've noticed that after I post, the entire thread seems to come to a complete standstill, or maybe one/two trailing posts follow mine...whether the thread has several thousand views or is just starting, more often than not I seem to bring the thread to a total halt...
Yeah, probably self-flattery, or maybe impatience.... 
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Silmakuoppaanikinko:
I think other posters have already summed up my feelings nicely with regards to the specific examples you pointed out (if any are still unclear, feel free to point them out). I have absolutely no problem defending/justifying any administrative action I take. In fact, I'm a proponent of as much transparency as possible - I have nothing to hide. 
Here is my take on your stance, let me know if I'm way off base. It seems to you, to all boil down to, not the content or popularity of the content, but in my perception of the intent behind the content. Does that sound about right?
If that's what you're trying to say, then I have this to respond with: I agree with you 100%. Fact is, I absolutely DO issue our warnings/bans on what I PERCEIVE to be the intent behind a post. And I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. And even if I am wrong, and it was an innocent comment that was just misunderstood due to a language/cultural barrier - is it still not wrong to set the correct expectation to at least have them review their wording more carefully in the future? If *I* can see how offense would be taken to a comment (and I'm really a pretty laid back guy irl), I would expect that others could be offended too.
An analogy if you will - Manifesto7 invites me to stay with his family in Japan. I go into their house, don't take off my shoes, and track mud through the home. I had no intention of creating a social faux pas, however, I did and I would expect to get corrected. Whether they do it politely (ie, a warning) or start yelling at me (ie, a ban), I would expect them to correct me nonetheless. If I knowingly did not take off my shoes and ran through the house yelling "HAHAHA!!", then I'd really expect to get it.
So I would like to think the only serious beef anyone could have with my disciplinary actions is the severity - should I have warned someone instead of banning them? Could a 2 day have served the same effect as a 2 week ban? Honestly, these are things I do weigh out before making a decision.
In fact, before I take ANY action I generally weigh out these things:
1) The person's tenure.
2) Prior warning/banning history, how recent prior warnings were, and whether or not they're relevant.
3) The severity of the offense.
4) The intent behind the offense.
5) What type of disciplinary action is appropriate given the above factors.
Do I always get it right? No, I fully admit I will sometimes be a little harsh at first, and realize I should have had a lighter hand. Sometimes it's the other way around too (ie, I might ban someone for 2 days then find some really offensive posts and wish I would have banned them for longer). Do I ever think any of my actions are with ANY justification? No, I do not. If they weren't, I don't think I would still be a moderator here (and I've been on TL.net for over 7 years now, a mod for about 5).
Anyways, that's my take on it.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 05 2011 06:14 Gene wrote:
its stupidly easy to get overzealous posting in debate threads. stupid internet anonymity and whatnot. i have to remove myself from them all the time.
Excellent example - you think before posting. You also have zero warnings/bans. You could be a lesson to others.
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I've had all of my posts closed, yet I stand firm in the belief that I've been done wrong. All of my posts were courteous and respectful with relevant subject matter with the sole purpose of soliciting a discussion from the community. I'm upset.
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On April 02 2011 01:46 EZjijy wrote:
If I ever have to question the value of my post, I end up not posting it. Usually.
Couldn't agree more.
I don't post at all pretty much, but it's not because of some fear from getting banned it's more like I have respect for the community and since I have nothing to contribute with at least I don't spam :S
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 05 2011 06:32 kurse3 wrote:
I've had all of my posts closed, yet I stand firm in the belief that I've been done wrong. All of my posts were courteous and respectful with relevant subject matter with the sole purpose of soliciting a discussion from the community. I'm upset.
I just took a look at the threads you've made and... I completely agree with every single one of them being close.
They look like things you'd find on the B.net forums...
"Who is the best player?", "Most difficult race to play?", "Where is the SEA server" (you could have searched for this), "Promotions after the patch?" (again, you could have searched for your answer), and "which language should I learn?".
Not exactly stimulating gems buddy. Having a 5 threads to 1 reply ratio is absolutely horrible. I would strongly advise you not create a thread for a LONG time until you learn what is expected around here.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 05 2011 06:35 Axonn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 01:46 EZjijy wrote:
If I ever have to question the value of my post, I end up not posting it. Usually. Couldn't agree more. I don't post at all pretty much, but it's not because of some fear from getting banned it's more like I have respect for the community and since I have nothing to contribute with at least I don't spam :S
And we <3 that attitude.
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On April 05 2011 06:28 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 06:14 Gene wrote:
its stupidly easy to get overzealous posting in debate threads. stupid internet anonymity and whatnot. i have to remove myself from them all the time. Excellent example - you think before posting. You also have zero warnings/bans. You could be a lesson to others.
This reminds me of when a school teacher praises a quiet restrained young boy for behaving extremely well and getting good grades.
You know what happens to that young boy afterwards?
Well he probably ends up living a mild, mediocre, linear and uneventful life.
But what i like to think happens to him after school and gives me a chubby just at the very thought of it. He gets beat the fuck up by the other kids for his passive mild mannered superiority and giving them a bad image by comparison.
What do you think Tubby, does this kid deserve to be beat up after school or not?
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People are expendable, ban happy mode is initiated.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 05 2011 06:37 iSometric wrote:
"Spell out rly"
RoFL!
Uh, yes. We are known as being a quality forum for a reason - people writing in 'rly' being acceptable would not help.
Here was your entire (worthless) comment btw:
On April 04 2011 11:44 TL.net Bot wrote:From: TL.net Bot Subject: Warning! This is a Warning!
Inappropriate.
And please spell out the word "really."
Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
The Mod Staff
(Do not reply to this message. No one will receive it.) |
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 05 2011 06:39 iSometric wrote:
People are expendable, ban happy mode is initiated.
People who create worthless posts and never add anything to the discussion are, yes. If you have a problem with our standards, we can settle this right now if you'd like.
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On April 05 2011 06:32 kurse3 wrote:
I've had all of my posts closed, yet I stand firm in the belief that I've been done wrong. All of my posts were courteous and respectful with relevant subject matter with the sole purpose of soliciting a discussion from the community. I'm upset.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that out of your 7 posts, 6 are new threads.
Maybe you shoul try to participate on the other topics and use the serach function just to be sure your thread idea hasn't been covered somewhere else.
I'm not a mod, so that's my 5 cents.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 05 2011 06:37 AlexDeLarge wrote:
What do you think Tubby, does this kid deserve to be beat up after school or not?
I think that's an awful, unrelated analogy. And if you get excited due to some weird notion of jealousy of someone 'getting theirs' for trying to, say, do well in life (since that's what the boy in your story would be doing), then you have massive issues IMO.
It sounds like the whole "if I can't succeed I don't want him to either" mentality. You need to look at yourself objectively dude. 
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On April 05 2011 06:14 Gene wrote:
its stupidly easy to get overzealous posting in debate threads. stupid internet anonymity and whatnot. i have to remove myself from them all the time.
yeah. quite often when i read my post again before i send i atleast change some words/expressions cause i got angry while writing or just decide its not worth it and scrap the whole thing. also i often just ignore posts/threads i know will only result in anger. and the really really stupid ones i mostly just report .
still got 3 warnings i think over the time. first one was fully deserved since i got really angry in a stupid debate ( and i was used to the more easy LP.net moderation at that time ). other 2 were more of misunderstandings, one for "backseat modding" cause i didnt think aabout what my introduction sentence implies and one 2 days ago by the ETT which we happily cleared up in a short talk ~~
overall TL has the by far best moderation of any forum ive seen in my 12-13 years of internet. sure misunderstandings and a mod having a bad day can happen , but thats just human. and in 99.x% of the cases its just perfect .
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Hyrule19057 Posts
I rather enjoy the purges. I regularly banned people from clan wars and I still do in stream chats all the time. I firmly believe in harsh treatments. My old stance back when I ran the CW section on ICCup was to ban entire teams when one of their members tried to fake results. Doing that, I got more thanks than hate rather than when I just banned the single offender.
Hash punishment. Best punishment.
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On April 05 2011 06:43 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 06:37 AlexDeLarge wrote:
What do you think Tubby, does this kid deserve to be beat up after school or not? I think that's an awful, unrelated analogy. And if you get excited due to some weird notion of jealousy of someone 'getting theirs' for trying to, say, do well in life (since that's what the boy in your story would be doing), then you have massive issues IMO. It sounds like the whole "if I can't succeed I don't want him to either" mentality. You need to look at yourself objectively dude.
Well aren't you the amazing psycho-analyst. FYI i was closer growing up to the nice boy in the story than to the crazed jealous bullies. Also attended one of top 3-5 universities in my country and was a pro gamer in wc3.
The only part you got right with a slight reformulation is "I can and have succeeded but i don't want others to though, except a few select super close friends"
However, most of my life path i went through and took action within a grey moral area.
I am sickened by people who assume that the boy in my story is an example of someone doing well in life. That is not doing well in life from my perspective. That's taking the safe and high road, playing it by the book, not taking any chances. The kind of person who gets some advice when he is very young about how he should be nice and respectful towards others, learn hard in school and be a generally nice, polite person, treat women well, that sort of thing.
I find this sort of man a gutless, spineless pushover.
But enough, i digress too much, this isn't even a real palpable scenario, just hypothetical.
It's just that you, Tubby, strike me as a person that would be Lawful Good in a D&D game, minus the whole heroic aura. And this sort of character cannot achieve real success in the real world. The type of success that turns you into a millionaire, surrounded by dozens of beautiful women and the envy of all men. All it does is turn you into a disciplined rule enforcer, giving others a reason to hate you.
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On April 05 2011 06:27 EvilTeletubby wrote:Silmakuoppaanikinko: I think other posters have already summed up my feelings nicely with regards to the specific examples you pointed out (if any are still unclear, feel free to point them out). I have absolutely no problem defending/justifying any administrative action I take. In fact, I'm a proponent of as much transparency as possible - I have nothing to hide. Here is my take on your stance, let me know if I'm way off base. It seems to you, to all boil down to, not the content or popularity of the content, but in my perception of the intent behind the content. Does that sound about right? No, that's what you claimed, that it's about 'attitude', which I am contesting.
My claim is that it's very easy for a human being to read an attitude that's not there if you don't agree. People who say stuff you don't agree with will always appear more arrogant and cocky than they intend it, that's human. Conversely, people will also appear more agreeable and humble if they say stuff you agree with.
Like I said, this even goes to the length that Zerg players and Terran players all find MC cocky, but significantly less Protoss players do.
If that's what you're trying to say, then I have this to respond with: I agree with you 100%. Fact is, I absolutely DO issue our warnings/bans on what I PERCEIVE to be the intent behind a post. And I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. And even if I am wrong, and it was an innocent comment that was just misunderstood due to a language/cultural barrier - is it still not wrong to set the correct expectation to at least have them review their wording more carefully in the future? If *I* can see how offense would be taken to a comment (and I'm really a pretty laid back guy irl), I would expect that others could be offended too. Yes, some people could be offended but some could not, and some could be offended because people get banned over innocent remarks.
So I would like to think the only serious beef anyone could have with my disciplinary actions is the severity - should I have warned someone instead of banning them? Could a 2 day have served the same effect as a 2 week ban? Honestly, these are things I do weigh out before making a decision. Well, my 'beef' is that I don't agree personally by limiting 'offensive remarks', I feel that they contribute to the debate over all. It's also an issue of projection I think. I've honestly never been 'offended' in my life I think and find the concept hard to emphasize with. I've learnt over time what kind of comments can be perceived as 'offensive' by different people and different cultures, but I still find it silly.
Conversely, people that are offended more easily are also more prone to protect others from 'offensive' remarks, even though the others don't care. If someone here would say something to me like 'you're a total dumbfuck' to me it wouldn't really draw an emotional response from me, the person would still get banned, even though no one got hurt by the remark.
Anyway, it seems that you've misunderstood my point, my point is that I contest your claim that it is about attitude and not about content. My point is that content can warp the way one perceives attitude.
Also, take it as a note how easy it is for a moderator (and any human being) to completely misunderstand the point people are trying to make. Quoting myself a couple of times:
Maybe, maybe not, but that wasn't the point, I was providing examples to back up my claim that indeed some people are being banned for having controversial opinions, not necessarily the 'attitude' with which they bring them.
Maybe, maybe not, but that wasn't the point I was addressing, what I was addressing is that EvilT claimed that people aren't banned because they disagree or have unpopular opinions, but because of the attitude they bring it with.
I don't deny this is true. But EvilT said it wasn't and that people were not banned for their unorthodox opinions, but for their attitude. This is something I don't agree with, people are in a lot of cases just phrasing unorthodox opinions in a very polite and civilized way and get banned for 'ignorance'.
I could add a couple more of these quotes of me in this thread, I had to repeat myself a couple of times, have I honestly lacked that much clarity? I don't see how I could have phrased it any more explicitly and still it was only human for people to read something I never said, and even something I explicitly claimed wasn't true.
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Its been months since my last warning
I think im having withdrawals.
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I definitely more of a lurker. I'm not that good at Starcraft 2 (Platinum League at the moment) so I never really feel like my contribution would be sufficient enough. I usually only post in topics I feel like I have knowledge about (I did some Live Reporting for some ProLeague games while I was in South Korea, and the short-lived Starcraft TCG thread).
At the same time, I also feel like I should give back to site. And maybe that doesn't involve posting but I do not want to just lurk the site all of the time. However the posting standards are so high that I'd rather not for fear of warnings/bans. But I'd much rather see quality posts than filth even if those quality posts aren't mine.
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EPT
