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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 210

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 30 2013 14:40 GMT
#4181
@Shane
Did you select the proper keyboard? and what do you mean by "all the keys" literally every single key, or just a lot? If so, which specific ones? and what version are you using?

@Borskey
Not sure about the snipe issue. It seems that you've got it figured out though.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Fiziks
Profile Joined December 2010
United States59 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 15:58:29
April 30 2013 15:28 GMT
#4182
On April 30 2013 10:30 Antylamon wrote:
Having 8 CGs for units is godly. I haven't been able to utilize it to its full extent since I'm currently going through TheStaircase, but I'll go through the main advantages I can think of atm. You probably already know them, but what the heck.

1. A full army key instead of being required to 1a2a3a. This makes a-moving and retreating 3 times faster on its own.
2. The obvious ones; spellcasters on a different key, vikings/colossi/tanks/whatever on another one, etc.
3. Two or three harass groups. Odds are, if you aren't MKP, you can't effectively micro a multi-pronged harass, unless you have this.
4. You can use spare CGs for whatever you want. The workers in your main if your opponent is dropping you a lot, baneling mines... it's just nice to have some wiggle room on your CGs in general. You can also use them for macro if you want to, like with TLabs, Cybers, and every Zerg building but Hatches and crawlers.


Thanks for the reply Antylamon. I agree with many parts of your post, but don't on other points. This is kind of why I thought it was necessary to discuss this idea because I think their may be other options. Even if you do everything you mentioned in points 1, 2, and 3, that still only accounts for really 6 or 7 control groups. And your second point is being redundant anyway because in most cases the reason you would have to do 1a, 2a, 3a in the first place is just because you've got your tanks, colossi, vikings, spellcasters, etc. separated onto different control groups.

It sounds "godly" in an ideal scenario, but in real world application is it really that useful? If I take a real world example of what a Terran would create in a game and put CGs to it, you could have a CG for Full Army, Bio Ball separated, Tanks and Widow Mines separated, Vikings and Medivacs separated, and Ghosts separated, that's only 5 CGs. If we throw in the extra 2 CGs for drops we still only come up with 7 and it still leaves us room for more macro CGs. The funny thing about drops is they usually last like maybe 45-90 in game seconds tops? Even if you do drops repeatedly, why would you prioritize drops as their own CG when they take up so little total game time? If you're a macro-oriented player my guess is that you should be prioritizing good macro above all other things.

Then there's tab macro. The main reason tab macro isn't usually considered effective is because people are usually hitting tab from ASDF to use it. In TheCore, of course, it's the side mouse buttons, which eliminates a lot of the downsides. Getting used to using tab is a plus as well, although arguably it is most useful for Terran (reactors and tech labs), so I'm a bit biased.


And as for tab macro, why exactly is it bad to do it from ASDF? It's located very conveniently under your pinky and should be very fast to press. Plus, if we compare it to Tabbing in theCore for a Non-Mouse button layout, it's actually better, because the non-mouse-button layout recommends it put in an inconvenient place like Enter or \.
Kalma
Profile Joined January 2012
16 Posts
April 30 2013 15:31 GMT
#4183
Snipe has a cooldown (0.5s) so hold snipe and spam-click is not ideal if you want to get off multiple snipes per ghost. I think shift-queue is (or was pre-nerf) useful vs high hp targets like broodlords and ultras.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 30 2013 15:37 GMT
#4184
Tab from ASDF with the pinky is a rough key. It is a row higher and to the left, the pinky is absolutely the worst finger at reaching to the row above, and has the shortest reach, making tab a particularly slow key from ASDF.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Fiziks
Profile Joined December 2010
United States59 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 15:55:40
April 30 2013 15:55 GMT
#4185
On May 01 2013 00:37 JaKaTaK wrote:
Tab from ASDF with the pinky is a rough key. It is a row higher and to the left, the pinky is absolutely the worst finger at reaching to the row above, and has the shortest reach, making tab a particularly slow key from ASDF.

I agree with this to the extent that it is not ergonomic or convenient to press, but only if you consider ASDF your "home row" like JIOP is in theCore. Most people that play Standard don't use ASDF is a home row. There is no reason to have a home row in Standard. When most people play standard, (Example), their fingers are usually floating over the number keys and tab is very easy to press. Plus, until custom layouts like thecore started really looking into ergonomics and key locations, etc. I don't really think people ever thought of something as a "hard key to press" just because it was 1 row up or down.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 30 2013 16:52 GMT
#4186
@Fiziks
I agree, which is why I said it was a slow key from ASDF, if you're doing something like Shift 123 or something similar, its not quite as bad. Also, the average person is not likely thinking of keys as fast or slow because they don't analyze keyboard layouts quite like we do. It is more likely that the average player considers whichever motion most familiar as "fast" even though in the long term, that isn't necessarily the case.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
peter22
Profile Joined April 2013
Belarus25 Posts
April 30 2013 18:32 GMT
#4187
is there an alternative to having unborrow on - /
?
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 30 2013 18:37 GMT
#4188
Why don't you like it?

@Jak,

I wonder if it makes to consider adding one more macro cg in... split warpgate and robo/stargate, split barracks and factory/starport, and add one cg for upgrades/nydus for z...
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 30 2013 18:43 GMT
#4189
Definitely not.

In the beginning of TheCore we took the top most used CGs and calculated selecting those control groups vs pressing the tab button and 2 was much less total actions than 3 or more. The reason for this is that a lot of time is spent checking the macro and not actually taking actions. Having all of our macro on the homekeys is not something I think is a good idea to give up.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
xgtx
Profile Joined February 2009
227 Posts
April 30 2013 19:16 GMT
#4190
On May 01 2013 03:43 JaKaTaK wrote:
The reason for this is that a lot of time is spent checking the macro and not actually taking actions. Having all of our macro on the homekeys is not something I think is a good idea to give up.


elaborate pls i dont understand what you just said
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
April 30 2013 20:15 GMT
#4191
On April 30 2013 12:37 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Anty
nick (eneyeseekay) made fleet keys and posts here pretty regularly. Anything useful in that layout that can be applied to TheCore has already been incorporated, probably at nick's suggestion, but I'm not going to go through 210 pages to find out Although if you've found something in there that could be of use, I'd love to know it


Did he tell you about this?

On April 30 2013 19:13 eneyeseekay wrote:
Another subtle but potentially powerful feature I managed to implement was a rapid fire command that lets you issue any ability or spell at the speed of your keyboard's repeat rate. No clicking required, no moving you hand out of reach, no mouse buttons or modifiers required. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? I'm not kidding though, it works, and doesn't get in the way of any other bindings either. You can spam Infested Terrans, Creep Tumors, Corruption, Feedback, Snipes, all of the Build Basic/Advanced commands, anything, and it works for all races. Not sure how useful it will be, but *shrug*...I think it's a cool feature I've never seen before.


He implied that it's going to be in the next version, and I don't know how this is possible, but it sounds neat.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 30 2013 20:26 GMT
#4192
this rapid fire command seems like it would go against the Blizzard ToS. Unless its something blizzard is developing... will you please explain this wizardry Mr. Nick?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
April 30 2013 20:44 GMT
#4193
On May 01 2013 05:26 JaKaTaK wrote:
this rapid fire command seems like it would go against the Blizzard ToS. Unless its something blizzard is developing... will you please explain this wizardry Mr. Nick?


It involved making an alternate bind for left click. You can do it right through the blizzard hotkey system.

Under UI Management, find "Choose ability or A.I Target". Normally, this is bound to Left Click. If you bind it to a key, it does the same thing as left clicking at your keyboard's refresh rate.

For example, set the alternate bind to "/", which is the same as Snipe in TRM. Then, if you hold / down with your ghosts selected, it's like spam clicking while holding your snipe button. It's kind of abusive, to the point where even though it's technically something built into their hotkey system I doubt they'd want people using it that way.

It also works with infested terran.
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
April 30 2013 20:52 GMT
#4194
On April 30 2013 23:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Borskey
Not sure about the snipe issue. It seems that you've got it figured out though.


I really don't. I actually have never used snipe in a real game. I'm not an experienced SC2 player at all.

On May 01 2013 00:28 Fiziks wrote:
The funny thing about drops is they usually last like maybe 45-90 in game seconds tops? Even if you do drops repeatedly, why would you prioritize drops as their own CG when they take up so little total game time? If you're a macro-oriented player my guess is that you should be prioritizing good macro above all other things.


Drops are absolutely something you want on a hotkey. The fact that you only need that key rarely is irrelevant. That's like saying you rarely need to use storm/fungal/EMP in a real game, so you should just box your HTs/infestors/ghosts when you need it and not bother wasting a control group.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 21:02:10
April 30 2013 20:58 GMT
#4195
On May 01 2013 05:44 Borskey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2013 05:26 JaKaTaK wrote:
this rapid fire command seems like it would go against the Blizzard ToS. Unless its something blizzard is developing... will you please explain this wizardry Mr. Nick?


It involved making an alternate bind for left click. You can do it right through the blizzard hotkey system.

Under UI Management, find "Choose ability or A.I Target". Normally, this is bound to Left Click. If you bind it to a key, it does the same thing as left clicking at your keyboard's refresh rate.

For example, set the alternate bind to "/", which is the same as Snipe in TRM. Then, if you hold / down with your ghosts selected, it's like spam clicking while holding your snipe button. It's kind of abusive, to the point where even though it's technically something built into their hotkey system I doubt they'd want people using it that way.

It also works with infested terran.


So basically we can get away with superfast ITs by making a Ctrl+Shift+I alternate for left click on Zerg layouts?

Sounds good to me.

Unfortunately it isn't very useful for any Terran or Protoss abilities, especially considering Ctrl+Shift for J and I are taken already. Although AutoTurret and *coughprenerf* Snipe seem useful for spamming.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 30 2013 21:00 GMT
#4196
Wow, that's super abusive. I wonder if they'll allow it in tournaments.

I actually just ran into a bit of an issue with making archons, because I ctrl+click add them into a CG and then merge them, which causes a repetitive thumb stroke. Going to move archon key off the thumb.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 21:09:06
April 30 2013 21:06 GMT
#4197
On May 01 2013 06:00 JaKaTaK wrote:
Wow, that's super abusive. I wonder if they'll allow it in tournaments.


It is currently allowed, no doubt about it. Custom hotkeys are one of those things which are universally considered legal as long as Blizz doesn't patch it out. Or at least until tournaments ban that specific feature, which is entirely possible.

For instance, Fire was banned from being bound to Scroll in CS, if I recall correctly, because you could shoot dual pistols like a machine gun. I don't know if it was with a third-party program or not, though.
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
April 30 2013 21:12 GMT
#4198
On May 01 2013 05:58 Antylamon wrote:
So basically we can get away with superfast ITs by making a Ctrl+Shift+I alternate for left click on Zerg layouts?

Sounds good to me.

Unfortunately it isn't very useful for any Terran or Protoss abilities, especially considering Ctrl+Shift for J and I are taken already. Although AutoTurret and *coughprenerf* Snipe seem useful for spamming.


Why have Ctrl+Shift in there? I'd say move Infested Terran to some key where it won't conflict with anything else that needs leftclick, and then just make that key by itself the alternate bind. I don't know off hand if there are any conflicts other than Transfuse.

For Protoss, I think it might be good for warping in Zealots. I dunno if it works with that, as I've never tested it.

For Terran, it's definitely best for snipe. I don't think / conflicts with something like stim or medivac boost, as those don't require use of a left-click like snipe does. I haven't tested it. Off hand, I can say it would conflict with Point Defense Drones.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 21:26:44
April 30 2013 21:18 GMT
#4199
On May 01 2013 06:12 Borskey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2013 05:58 Antylamon wrote:
So basically we can get away with superfast ITs by making a Ctrl+Shift+I alternate for left click on Zerg layouts?

Sounds good to me.

Unfortunately it isn't very useful for any Terran or Protoss abilities, especially considering Ctrl+Shift for J and I are taken already. Although AutoTurret and *coughprenerf* Snipe seem useful for spamming.


Why have Ctrl+Shift in there? I'd say move Infested Terran to some key where it won't conflict with anything else that needs leftclick, and then just make that key by itself the alternate bind. I don't know off hand if there are any conflicts other than Transfuse.

For Protoss, I think it might be good for warping in Zealots. I dunno if it works with that, as I've never tested it.

For Terran, it's definitely best for snipe. I don't think / conflicts with something like stim or medivac boost, as those don't require use of a left-click like snipe does. I haven't tested it. Off hand, I can say it would conflict with Point Defense Drones.


It wouldn't conflict with anything. Why would you be holding Ctrl+Shift for an ability in any other circumstance?

Plus, Ctrl+Shift is the handiest modifier combination I can think of. Alt is more out of the way and Ctrl+I is already used to set a camera for Zerg. If it comes down to accidentally holding Ctrl along with Shift, then that could easily be tested, although I believe it already has with the current control group setup.

For Terran, Snipe spam would end up on Alt+Slash, which isn't all that fun to try imo. There is the possibility of switching Nuke to Slash, though.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 30 2013 21:24 GMT
#4200
This is kind of blowing my mind right now. Kind of afraid to try it I feel like as soon as blizzard realizes what they've done they'll patch it.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
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