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On August 13 2011 02:49 Ravencruiser wrote:Show nested quote +On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.) If this was true then there is absolutely zero confusion as to why the Koreans withdrew. Also, if this was true then the NASL organizers are complete greedy ****s.
There is a 60 day payback period after season 1 ended. It hasn't been 60 days yet... Some people have gotten their deposits back, and some are still waiting. But the 60 days isn't up.
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On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly. Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it. Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL
NASL responded with this a page ago:
On August 13 2011 02:37 NASL.tv wrote:
That is the issue -- we don't mind if they think that NASL is not a good option for them or they don't want to play. But when you sign up for qualifiers, you know the rules, procedures, and commitment required, and the day the season starts you quit the league, that is the issue.
Now, I'm not sure how airtight the contract is, but I'm guessing that signing up for the qualifiers for s2 meant you agreed with the s2 terms.
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On August 13 2011 02:47 Azzur wrote:
If teams had an issue with the 2 month payment, they should've raised it before they signed. And don't use it as an excuse or say that NASL is disorganised.
i.e. Don't agree to something and then say that someone's performance is poor because they didn't do better than what was agreed.
It has nothing to do with them being disorganised. You must not dealt with any amount shipping or receiving in the real world. Again, just because legally they have a certain amount of time to pay it, doesn't mean that in the real world you normally use that time. People tend to get it out of the way early.
For example, if you buy something on ebay (or some such site) do you wait until your payment method starts getting on your back about it for you to pay, or do you just pay it as soon as it's practical?
And if you're talking about them not liking the contract from season 1, then sure maybe they should have. However, this isn't about season 1's contract, it's about season 2's. The contract that they seem to have rejected because they couldn't agree on it.
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Unfortunately, it seems like the problem is that they're Korean. There's no way to make airplane rides and time zones disappear.
On the other hand, I think there's this sense that the Koreans don't need NASL and so don't care.
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699 Posts
On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly. Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it. Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
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On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly. Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it. Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
Is your contract not enforceable?
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I guess it should be asked of people and NASL is then. If they are on edge about money, and hadn't yet received it. From their point of view do you think it would have been a better idea to risk it and spend a month working for money, and then dropped out a month in screwing you over even harder? Or did what they did and cut out as the season was starting?
Please keep in mind that what they know isn't what you know, and "The check is in the mail" is a common excuse.
Edit: Either way, there is A LOT of things being said around SC2 that has no place being said. There are a reasons why companies release press releases and don't release information in blog posts, forum posts or on twitter.
This is NOT DIRECTED AT NASL AT ALL IN THE LEAST. Everyone does it, it's really really dumb.
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From everything I've read, it sounds like NASL has bent over backwards to accommodate the Korean players for season 2. They lay everything out up front and they agreed to it. To pull out after that is pretty ridiculous.
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On August 13 2011 02:54 thebig1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:47 Azzur wrote:
If teams had an issue with the 2 month payment, they should've raised it before they signed. And don't use it as an excuse or say that NASL is disorganised.
i.e. Don't agree to something and then say that someone's performance is poor because they didn't do better than what was agreed. It has nothing to do with them being disorganised. You must not dealt with any amount shipping or receiving in the real world. Again, just because legally they have a certain amount of time to pay it, doesn't mean that in the real world you normally use that time. People tend to get it out of the way early. For example, if you buy something on ebay (or some such site) do you wait until your payment method starts getting on your back about it for you to pay, or do you just pay it as soon as it's practical? And if you're talking about them not liking the contract from season 1, then sure maybe they should have. However, this isn't about season 1's contract, it's about season 2's. The contract that they seem to have rejected because they couldn't agree on it.
When I make a purchase of a product online, I read the terms on when the product will be shipped to me. If it says 14 days, then I expect that long. If the terms state 2 months, then I have no right to expect 1 month. If I don't like the terms of 2 months, I can always not purchase it. However, I have no right if I were to purchase it and then claim that "good businesses" normally do things in 14 days.
If I make goals with my boss and meet them, then my performance is "satisfactory". I would be angered if my boss comes back and says that my performance is poor because what we agreed on is not "how the real world functions".
The issue is that the koreans (appeared to) have signed the s2 qualifiers contract (which may or may not be airtight). I'm guessing that the contract stipulates the conditions of s2 and the expectations. Now, they are baulking at the contract - which is unethical.
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It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff.
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"Secondly, players having hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play."
Wait I thought the regular season games weren't livecasted?
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On August 13 2011 03:03 Gojira621 wrote:
It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff.
European players have their travel paid for by their sponsors.
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On August 13 2011 03:10 LetoAtreides82 wrote:
"Secondly, players having hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play."
These are valid reasons to not participate. But they are not valid reasons to sign a contract and then pull out.
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On August 13 2011 02:17 kwhipped wrote:
Players that require the travel stipend will have EARNED the right to attend the Grand Finals of NASL. Some of them (Koreans and Europeans) will have to travel very far to get there. Also, this is where NASL gets most of their viewership and money from. There are only SIXTEEN players in the Grand Finals. With the ability to pay out $100000, how hard is it to have a travel stipend at maximum of $2000, and keep the prize pool the same? With S3, apparently they will be going for $250000 prize pool or something like that, so the ability is clearly there. The players who attend the NASL Grand Finals already have played through tough hours depending on their location, for 3 months. They are the players that will be getting NASL the most exposure. Treat them as such. I agree with the decision to not attend. For being a "major eSports" event, they are being stingy to their BEST players (not Korean, but the players who make up the Grand Finals), when they clearly have the resources to help all 16 players. ($32000 maximum...)
More reason to believe that Koreans are overestimating NASL's budget. This is why they tried to make that power play to squeeze what they can and failed. Look at the (better) translated article. They keep citing the big prize numbers as reason why they can get more. I hope they know NASL is ran by a rag tag team of community members, not some big corporation with deep pockets. They got one thing right, NASL is very disorganized haha.  But they had plenty of chairs at the finals so they're not completely lost.
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You guys should know that, many Koreans team are sponsorless (is this even word?)
Prime.WE doesnt have sponsor, as well as ZeNEX, fOu didnt have one, so contracted with FXO.
Only SlayerS IM has proper sponsor. all other teams are very low in income, i mean extremely low or
even 0. oGs, and MVP, I dont believe they have Korean sponsors, as well.
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On August 13 2011 03:03 Gojira621 wrote:
It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff.
Except Europeans have complained about MLG and NASL? Thorzain and Naniwa off the top of my head.
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The last few days have shown me one thing - the SC2Con is a weak and poorly run organisation. First, it was the slander of Coach Lee's name based on false testimony from FD and Tester. Now, it is the NASL debacle. Instead of reminding the teams of their legal and ethical obligations (to something they have signed on), they threaten a withdrawal to secure better conditions.
I'm speculating, but it is no wonder that some teams are struggling to get sponsors. Sponsors dislike dealing with unprofessional people.
I think the players all deserve better - I'm hoping that teams or players will see the light and jump ship.
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That might be why many Koreans hope to see sc1 and scll emerges. Korean progaming SCll Gaming is dying honestly. Having hard time in getting sponsors, I think TSL have sponsors though.
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On August 13 2011 03:14 BaekHo wrote:
You guys should know that, many Koreans team are sponsorless (is this even word?)
Prime.WE doesnt have sponsor, as well as ZeNEX, fOu didnt have one, so contracted with FXO.
Only SlayerS IM has proper sponsor. all other teams are very low in income, i mean extremely low or
even 0. oGs, and MVP, I dont believe they have Korean sponsors, as well.
From what has happened in the last few days (including the treatment of Coach Lee), they have been shown to be extremely unprofessional. And unprofessional teams don't attract sponsors.
Yes, I agree money is an issue, and I'm not blaming them for trying to secure better conditions. I also don't blame them if money prevents participation.
However, what I don't accept is their unethical way they went about it.
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On August 13 2011 03:14 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:03 Gojira621 wrote:
It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff. Except Europeans have complained about MLG and NASL? Thorzain and Naniwa off the top of my head.
Yeah, complaining and not participating is totally fine. What is not fine is saying that you will participate (and signing a contract) and then not showing up. Its not fine because the organisers have already planned things in advance.
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EPT
