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On August 13 2011 03:28 waitwhat wrote:
I like how he made a statement about how NASL is out to make money. Does he not realize it's a fucking business? Of course they're out to make money. I don't understand this Korean's logic one bit. I am definitely not an NASL fan, but I do side with them when it comes to this matter. It's quite absurd that they kept offering more and more to help the Koreans come over and basically got shit on through this guy's opinion.
Also, why does it matter if some teams have sponsors and some don't? SlayerS and IM have proper sponsorships and aren't participating either.
Same, I'm not a NASL fan. I don't quite like the format and how it's run. However, I support them 100% on this matter.
What I've learned from this is that SC2Con is a hopeless organisation. Hopefully, more people will realise this and things in korea will change for the better.
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On August 13 2011 03:38 purecarnagge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:15 Azzur wrote:
The last few days have shown me one thing - the SC2Con is a weak and poorly run organisation. First, it was the slander of Coach Lee's name based on false testimony from FD and Tester. Now, it is the NASL debacle. Instead of reminding the teams of their legal and ethical obligations (to something they have signed on), they threaten a withdrawal to secure better conditions.
I'm speculating, but it is no wonder that some teams are struggling to get sponsors. Sponsors dislike dealing with unprofessional people.
I think the players all deserve better - I'm hoping that teams or players will see the light and jump ship. Why the Koreans are getting everything they want by being unified. They are also creating demand for themselves.  So far the Koreans seem unwilling to honor their committments. Its all very political and sometimes shady.
But there are upstanding koreans (e.g. boxer ) who will continue to be a beacon. Don't under-estimate his influence on the sphere of e-sports. Also don't forget the power of the fans. The korean fans are clever, they will see through the unprofessional nature of SC2Con. Just like what has happened with the Coach Lee fiasco. The sponsors have money, and they will in no way want to be associated with unprofessionalism and unethical behaviour.
I'm predicting that there will be repercussions in the future for SC2Con.
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On August 13 2011 03:34 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. litigation costs lots of money. NASL suing Korean teams would only create bad publicity for NASL even if NASL is in the right. it's not worth the time and effort. it sucks that contracts can't really be enforced by NASL (other than security deposit garnishes), but that is basically all the power NASL has in this situation
I recently had to manage a contract employee overseas and it is an absolute nightmare. Even with a lucrative contract in placed they missed every deadline they agreed to up front.
A deposit might seem a little unorthodox, but I understand why NASL requires one, considering they are dealing with international competition. A contract is extremely difficult and costly to enforce in a long distance arrangement. You have to be either willing to turn a blind eye or make sure both parties have skin in the game.
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Due to all that's been said, I can't see a way out of this unless both sides just accept that they have said what they need to and move on. Otherwise there's going to be more threads exactly like this which have no effect other than people arguing, and creating a divide about who is right, NASL or the Koreans.
All in all, this situation is not good for anyone, the Korean's look bad for backing out at the last minute, and NASL look bad for not catering to Korean's, the fans get divided not knowing who is truly at fault, and everyone makes less money... Would it not serve everyone better to accept each other's points of view, and not look at the situation hostilely, but rather as an unfortunate missed opportunity?
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With all the drama that's been happening the past few months, I tend to agree with the sentiment: Korea may have the best sc2 players, but they still haven't gotten their shit together when it comes to running things professionally over there (for SC2-- BW different story). I would guess it's cause they have the internal infrastructure, but have never had to deal with the international scene in any big way... and now they are having a bit of a rude awakening over all of this.
They signed contracts... they backed out at the last minute over incredibly unreasonable monetary demands ($2k for the final offer seems quite fair compared to the original $500, lol). NASL seemed quite willing to compromise and work with them. IMO very shitty move by SC2Con.
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In the last part of the Korean response, it is said that the nasl did not pay back the security deposit and the pay check for winning the tournament. So Puma and everyone else have not gotten their prize money?
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Korean players are great I dont think anyone has ever had a problem with the players. The korean organizations though on another hand..
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On August 13 2011 03:47 soulist wrote:
In the last part of the Korean response, it is said that the nasl did not pay back the security deposit and the pay check for winning the tournament. So Puma and everyone else have not gotten their prize money?
To reiterate, NASL has 60 days to pay back, it's been about a month and they've just started paying back now, so they're still kosher.
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On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best. Correct
Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.
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The Korean organizations are CLEARLY in the wrong here.
If you don't want to join our league, fine. I'm ok with that. But don't commit and then de-commit.
Personally, I'd rather watch NA server players duke it out, even if it's not the same level. I get bored watching my favorites get steamrolled by foreigners (yes, here, they are the foreigners).
Unlike in SC1, SC2 in America does not need the Koreans to survive. The sooner Koreans realize this, the better off they will be. We are more than capable of maintaining a pro-gaming scene with local players, and if they are unwilling to work with westerners, they are the ones who will be losing out.
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On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best. Correct Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.
Well, that's how some of these contracts work. In many other situations (not just this), there are contracts where damages are not worth pursuing. However, what the contracts do is proof of credibility - and the backing out of the contracts points to an unethical SC2Con.
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On August 13 2011 03:55 BluePanther wrote:
The Korean organizations are CLEARLY in the wrong here.
If you don't want to join our league, fine. I'm ok with that. But don't commit and then de-commit.
Personally, I'd rather watch NA server players duke it out, even if it's not the same level. I get bored watching my favorites get steamrolled by foreigners (yes, here, they are the foreigners).
Unlike in SC1, SC2 in America does not need the Koreans to survive. The sooner Koreans realize this, the better off they will be. We are more than capable of maintaining a pro-gaming scene with local players, and if they are unwilling to work with westerners, they are the ones who will be losing out.
Exactly!
Arguing about whether the conditions is good/bad is all irrelevant.
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I'm interested to know who forms the SC2Con? Which teams/coaches are involved?
Also interesting would be Liquid's partnership with oGs. I have a feeling Nazgul will not tolerate these unethical shenanigans.
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On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best. Correct Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.
And this is where the $500 deposit comes in. When the contract gets broken they deduct money from the deposit. But in this situation it seemed like the koreans never paid the deposit so nasl can't really do anything.
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On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best. Correct Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.
You have to prove that financial damage though. If you have a problem with how the law works, you'll have to contact your state government and ask them to change it. punitive damages in contracts are taboo in the united states and no court is going to award them.
It's:
a.) not worth the effort for the amount they'd collect, even if they did get their lawyers fees paid for (and for those non-americans, the default in our system is each side pays their own lawyer regardless of who wins)
b.) only creating negative publicity, which an organization like NASL doesn't want. This is the same reason big corporations will just pay people off to make lawsuits go away. Even if they collect 2k in damages, the negative publicity will likely cost them more than that in revenue over time.
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On August 12 2011 16:04 jjw wrote:
Of course, its very good opportunities for players to play in foreign tournament which will give them chances to play against good foreign players and experience foreign community, but it is important to not forget that they are 'pro' gamers and not participate in amateur tournament. (NOTE: Although this sound offensive, i believe he meant amateur tournament as NOT skill wise, he doesn't seem to think foreign players are scrubs, he thinks that amateur tournament are those who doesn't provide player's environment very well)
...
Finally I hope (reporter) NASL stop Tournaments, or supports players better, and be better in tournament operating.
Couldn't agree more with both these statements.
If I had to pick one word to describe the NASL Season 1, it'd be amateur for sure. I also agree these type of tournaments need to be weeded out, as the bar has already been set so far higher than what NASL provided.
Let's hope for a breakthrough Season 2 I guess.
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On August 13 2011 03:47 soulist wrote:
In the last part of the Korean response, it is said that the nasl did not pay back the security deposit and the pay check for winning the tournament. So Puma and everyone else have not gotten their prize money?
+ Show Spoiler +FFS read the effing thread you are writing in. How about that. Maybe your question has been answered 20 times already, even with proof. Guess what it was answered and you are just wasting everyones time by asking the same stupid question again. Maybe you should learn how to use the search-function of your browser to find answers. Or maybe you should stop posting if you dont intent to read the thread anyways. But i have a better idea. How about, ever OP edits his post so many times that you dont have to look for anything anymore... This thread and the other one are starting to make me really angry. If you dont want to read the whole thread, just read the fucking bolded persons that have a special icon ...
All in all i really hope the SC2Con will have to pay for their behavior. Guess SlayersJessica should lead this bunch. Maybe we would get an organisation that could be trusted. In the end the fans and the players lose and thats really sad. I dont understand their attitude at all. The international SC2 scene is bigger and has way more financial capabilites and is still supposed to bow down to korean rules and wishes? That does not make any sense at all to me.
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On the bright side, at least NASL can pick up some new talent!
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In my personal oppinion the only reason this is an issue is because the Korean teams brought it up late. If they'd never bothered to try and qualify for the season this would be fine, no one would care and we'd all understand that their budget simply couldnt stretch. As it is, theyv buggered up everyone by claiming they'd play (entered qualifiers, signed contracts) and then not actually playing. Yeah they may have good reasons for not competing in NASL but they fucked up when they didnt consider those reasons earlier. They should never have entered.
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On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best. Correct Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.
Welcome to the real world.
Ever see someone sue but they signed a waiver? Ever hear of athletes holding out in sports even though they have contracts?
Right now, Chris Johnson a running back for the Tennessee Titans(NFL) has a contract to play football this year. He refuses to show up and play unless he gets a new contract. He SIGNED a contract to play, but refuses to. He is breaking his contract, but you know what in the long run he'll end up getting paid.
Contracts do have some legal recourse for sure, but sometimes the process to go through(legal means) isn't even worth it. Again, welcome to the real world of business.
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EPT
