|
On August 13 2011 04:05 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best. Correct Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid. Welcome to the real world. Ever see someone sue but they signed a waiver? Ever hear of athletes holding out in sports even though they have contracts? Right now, Chris Johnson a running back for the Tennessee Titans(NFL) has a contract to play football this year. He refuses to show up and play unless he gets a new contract. He SIGNED a contract to play, but refuses to. He is breaking his contract, but you know what in the long run he'll end up getting paid. Contracts do have some legal recourse for sure, but sometimes the process to go through(legal means) isn't even worth it. Again, welcome to the real world of business.
From a business viewpoint you are right. From a fans viewpoint i am deeply dissapointed by the actions of the SC2Con.
|
On August 13 2011 03:40 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:28 waitwhat wrote:
I like how he made a statement about how NASL is out to make money. Does he not realize it's a fucking business? Of course they're out to make money. I don't understand this Korean's logic one bit. I am definitely not an NASL fan, but I do side with them when it comes to this matter. It's quite absurd that they kept offering more and more to help the Koreans come over and basically got shit on through this guy's opinion.
Also, why does it matter if some teams have sponsors and some don't? SlayerS and IM have proper sponsorships and aren't participating either. Same, I'm not a NASL fan. I don't quite like the format and how it's run. However, I support them 100% on this matter. What I've learned from this is that SC2Con is a hopeless organisation. Hopefully, more people will realise this and things in korea will change for the better.
Agreed 100%. This situation is so pathetic overall. It's making me want to stop following SC2. It's disheartening to see organizations (SC2Con) that are supposed to be holding the scene together and helping it grow are apparently doing their best to harm it.
I am not impressed at all. I don't want to support them in any way, even if they couldn't care less about my view. Just going to stop watching Korean SC2. As a viewer on the sideline, this is just insulting to watch unfold. I feel like I'm supporting deceptive people and it bothers. I hope others will follow suit so they understand : trying to sabotage tournaments (or at least, forcing them in this situation) is not something the fans are going to take without responding. To me, they have damaged their reputation beyond repair already.
I can understand the Koreans not wanting to play at ungodly hours with lag to lose a BO3 single elimination tournament 3 months later, but they simply didn't need to sign up for it. With all these complaints and underhanded ways of doing things being brought to the surface, it's ridiculous to side with them or support them in the future.
Overall, I urge people to think about if they really want to support the Korean scene after this crap (because let's face it, SC2Con is the face of the Korean scene). GomTV is not to blame if we take NASL's statements, but they are the only outlet for the Korean scene so too bad. GSL is the best SC2 to follow, but I'd rather stand by my point than support these people.
|
On August 13 2011 04:10 BlueFlames wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 04:05 FLuE wrote:On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court. If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it. see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best. Correct Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid. Welcome to the real world. Ever see someone sue but they signed a waiver? Ever hear of athletes holding out in sports even though they have contracts? Right now, Chris Johnson a running back for the Tennessee Titans(NFL) has a contract to play football this year. He refuses to show up and play unless he gets a new contract. He SIGNED a contract to play, but refuses to. He is breaking his contract, but you know what in the long run he'll end up getting paid. Contracts do have some legal recourse for sure, but sometimes the process to go through(legal means) isn't even worth it. Again, welcome to the real world of business. From a business viewpoint you are right. From a fans viewpoint i am deeply dissapointed by the actions of the SC2Con.
I agree 100%. It is a sad situation and disappointing. I just wanted to make the point that calling NASL's contracts "faulty" or something like that isn't the case. When you have professional players finding ways out of contracts, and you know those are written by some of the best lawyers around, it isn't surprising to hear it happen on a lesser level.
Contracts are a funny thing because if you know that it would cost more for the legal action in both money, time and energy than to just let you break the contract you can get away with doing just that.
|
This really sucks - I liked watching NASL games a couple of times a week before going to sleep (at a reasonable hour *cough*). It seems like SC2Con is being a little bratty, and accusing NASL of being greedy and not looking after players is pretty low. Things like this and the mix-up with TSL make SC2Con seem like such a hindrance.
|
So many uninformed opinions here. =\ And just FYI, tickets are approximately 1500 dollars.
|
|
|
On August 13 2011 04:24 kineSiS- wrote:
So many uninformed opinions here. =\ And just FYI, tickets are approximately 1500 dollars.
Yes, for instance, the constant arguing that $2000 isn't enough money.
Edit: Above link is something I'd trust. But even supposing that the costs of traveling went over $2000, it doesn't seem like it's advantageous to the players to forfeit the chance to win a substantial amount of money over a matter of $100-200, and the whole SC2Con chest beating isn't necessary, either.
|
On August 13 2011 02:50 NASL.tv wrote:
Again -- we have said, that all prizes will be paid within 60 days. As of yesterday, it had been 31 days.
If Koreans waited until they got paid back fully all prizes, we would have to delay the season for another month. We can't do that. The fact that they were in 100% understanding of the deadlines we had for paying out prizes (they all signed the contracts) is key here.
Just a question. I understand NASL is under no obligation to pay out the prize money until day 60. But with the Koreans teams struggling with finances, have you considered paying the prize money out now? NASL has said repeatedly that the $400K prize money for the first three seasons has already been secured. NASL already has the stream subscription money, and the Finals ticket money. If the money is already available, why not just send it to them right away?
Two main reasons to delay sending the money ASAP are (which I don't think apply to the current situation):
A. There isn't enough money yet, waiting for S2 stream sales to come it.
B. They want to make money on 'the float'. But $50,000K for 60 days is only about $83 in interest.
Again, I do understand that the contract allows NASL to wait the full 60 days, but nothing prevents NASL from paying early.
|
Actually, I'm not sure who the uninformed opinions kineSiS was referring to. I'll give kineSiS the benefit of the doubt until clarification.
|
Why don't the teams pay for their players like it has been in eSports since the 90s. Also, thinking NASL is making money is hilarious.
|
What are you talking about? I'm managing Team Liquid and I can tell you that the planetickets cost around 1200 $ for a return ticket. Hotel during the event wouldn't be more than 400$ and then you can eat and drink for less than 50$ a day. What's the problem here? 2000 $ is more than sufficient to cover all costs
This statement by the manager of TL pretty much sums it all up from the previous NASL statement.
2k covers expenses....if the teams can't afford it up front it can be deducted from their winnings. So if a korean makes the finals and finishes 16th the basically end up breaking even and haven't spent a dime.
Also the Deposit makes sense for an American run league....why? US tournaments don't have a Kespa / sc2con or whatever at their disposal to punish players / teams that don't follow the rules. So having a deposit that you can deduct money from for failure to do what you agreed to is more the reasonable considering the exposure and amount possible to win of the league.
|
On August 13 2011 04:35 Hammurabio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:50 NASL.tv wrote:
Again -- we have said, that all prizes will be paid within 60 days. As of yesterday, it had been 31 days.
If Koreans waited until they got paid back fully all prizes, we would have to delay the season for another month. We can't do that. The fact that they were in 100% understanding of the deadlines we had for paying out prizes (they all signed the contracts) is key here. Just a question. I understand NASL is under no obligation to pay out the prize money until day 60. But with the Koreans teams struggling with finances, have you considered paying the prize money out now? NASL has said repeatedly that the $400K prize money for the first three seasons has already been secured. NASL already has the stream subscription money, and the Finals ticket money. If the money is already available, why not just send it to them right away? Two main reasons to delay sending the money ASAP are (which I don't think apply to the current situation): A. There isn't enough money yet, waiting for S2 stream sales to come it. B. They want to make money on 'the float'. But $50,000K for 60 days is only about $83 in interest. Again, I do understand that the contract allows NASL to wait the full 60 days, but nothing prevents NASL from paying early.
Yep, NASL can in good faith pay out early. And I think if the SC2Con asked for this consideration - maybe NASL would've been helpful.
Instead, non-payment by NASL was deemed as disorganised, which according to the terms that was agreed, was not. In other words, SC2Con shouldn't have used non-payment as a PR weapon.
|
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.
By far most value from a signed contract comes from the loyalty both signees attach to their autographs. It solves 90% of the situations without a court case. Saying their contracts are not worth the paper they're printed on is offensive and dumb.
|
On August 13 2011 04:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid. By far most value from a signed contract comes from the loyalty both signees attach to their autographs. It solves 90% of the situations without a court case. Saying their contracts are not worth the paper they're printed on is offensive and dumb.
Glad to see an authority in this thread! Hope you can answer a few questions if possible.
Who makes up the SC2Con? Which teams / coaches?
What is Liquid's stance on this matter? Will it affect the partnership with oGs?
|
I believe the Koreans NASL has always been a shoddy corporation
|
How many times does it have to be posted that NASL offered $1000 and upped the prize pool so they could use there own prize pool money to pay their own way?
This is not the same thing as NASL giving a $2000 stipend.
The Koreans brought the viewers, NASL made money off their participation. Now the Koreans are making a power move to show the NASL they aren't shit without them.
And they are right. The NASL finals was an High School AV club production and was saved by an amazing display of skill by Korean players.
The deposit thing might seem like small change, but its also insulting. NASL took $250, haven't returned it yet, and are now wanting $500 dollars.
Lets say a Korean makes it to the offline finals. They get bounced in the first round. They get their $1000 stipend, The $1000 prize pool (which won't get paid for 60 days). Of that, the player gets like $250 - $300 bucks for themselves, which is less than the $500 they have already given NASL. This is after 9 weeks of getting up at the ass crack of dawn every week to play a BO3.
Oh, and the icing on the cake, after arriving at the airport, NASL is their to pick you up. Well, that's kind of them. Except they have their hands out asking for another 80 dollars.
Why would anyone want to participate in this?
|
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."
No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.
Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?
Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.
You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.
A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.
As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.
Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.
Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?
One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.
I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.
I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see.
|
On August 13 2011 04:47 Fluffdaddy wrote:
How many times does it have to be posted that NASL offered $1000 and upped the prize pool so they could use there own prize pool money to pay their own way?
This is not the same thing as NASL giving a $2000 stipend.
The Koreans brought the viewers, NASL made money off their participation. Now the Koreans are making a power move to show the NASL they aren't shit without them.
And they are right. The NASL finals was an High School AV club production and was saved by an amazing display of skill by Korean players.
The deposit thing might seem like small change, but its also insulting. NASL took $250, haven't returned it yet, and are now wanting $500 dollars.
Lets say a Korean makes it to the offline finals. They get bounced in the first round. They get their $1000 stipend, The $1000 prize pool (which won't get paid for 60 days). Of that, the player gets like $250 - $300 bucks for themselves, which is less than the $500 they have already given NASL. This is after 9 weeks of getting up at the ass crack of dawn every week to play a BO3.
Oh, and the icing on the cake, after arriving at the airport, NASL is their to pick you up. Well, that's kind of them. Except they have their hands out asking for another 80 dollars.
Why would anyone want to participate in this?
As mentioned many times it the thread - the issue is not that the koreans pulled out because they do not agree with the conditions. It is they pulled out after signing a written contract. If they do not like the conditions, then don't participate, no one is forcing them to. However, not honouring a contract is unethical.
|
On August 13 2011 04:50 BaekHo wrote:
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."
No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.
Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?
Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.
You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.
A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.
As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.
Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.
Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?
One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.
I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.
I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see.
Then why did they sign an agreement saying that they agreed with the terms and conditions? NASL even accommodated some of their demands. I don't care how poor you are - that doesn't excuse unethical behaviour.
|
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?
It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.
Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
