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On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.
More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.
Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.
The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.
$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.
I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.
This is what I'm getting out of this too. It seems like more trouble than it's worth for them unless they are somehow certain that they can place extremely high in the finals.
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On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WRHRJ.png) Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this
nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.
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On August 13 2011 05:05 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?
It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.
Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us. you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket.
First, ya that's what im saying. What you said is why Koreans not playing in NASL. You said, free quipment and maybe domestic plane ticket. Now, look at it. Even when you have sponsorship, you can hardly can domesstic plane ticket, and now if you want to come from Korea to States or even EU, you have to pay about twice or third times more flight ticket, and extra for food, hotel, etc.
Now, even if you have sponsorship, you will have to struggle lot to make that much of money to come to States, but most of Korean pro gaming team dont even have spoonsorship, so guess what, you wanna go to States? then make your own money and go. Teams will not support you with amount of money.
You also said that American pro gamers are not rolling around in pile of cash, and I m aware (I myself is pro gamer afterall) of that. In Korea, however, if you are in Pro gaming team, unlike foreign team, you have your own schedule. Do we have our own? No we leave all different places, we study, or do part time job and play games then make money with work AND tournaments.
Have you ever thought about why korean skill is superior? Because while you try to make money and afford your life, Korean gamer, 5 people sleep in same room, you practice 12 hours a day, none stop, not even rest during weekend, so you will have time to work? Guess not. no. they devote everything there.
You wanna do part time job? Ok then good bye for you we dont want you in team.Simple as that.
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On August 13 2011 05:12 BaekHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:05 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?
It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.
Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us. you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket. First, ya that's what im saying. What you said is why Koreans not playing in NASL. You said, free quipment and maybe domestic plane ticket. Now, look at it. Even when you have sponsorship, you can hardly can domesstic plane ticket, and now if you want to come from Korea to States or even EU, you have to pay about twice or third times more flight ticket, and extra for food, hotel, etc. Now, even if you have sponsorship, you will have to struggle lot to make that much of money to come to States, but most of Korean pro gaming team dont even have spoonsorship, so guess what, you wanna go to States? then make your own money and go. Teams will not support you with amount of money. You also said that American pro gamers are not rolling around in pile of cash, and I m aware (I myself is pro gamer afterall) of that. In Korea, however, if you are in Pro gaming team, unlike foreign team, you have your own schedule. Do we have our own? No we leave all different places, we study, or do part time job and play games then make money with work AND tournaments. Have you ever thought about why korean skill is superior? Because while you try to make money and afford your life, Korean gamer, 5 people sleep in same room, you practice 12 hours a day, none stop, not even rest during weekend, so you will have time to work? Guess not. no. they devote everything there. You wanna do part time job? Ok then good bye for you we dont want you in team.Simple as that.
That's fine. And if you can't afford to play in NASL, I completely understand that.
But then don't sign up and screw over the tournament. Be polite, tell them you can't afford it, and move on. Don't sign a contract. Sure, the fans might be sad about that, but they wouldn't be mad.
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On August 13 2011 04:59 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?
It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.
Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us. The point is -- why sign a contract and wait 10 days before ever mentioning that you have a problem, then waiting another 5 days to say that you won't participate. This is the real issue. Their other concerns are totally valid. They just waited so long to tell us that it really hurt the progress of our league.
I dont know about contract, I'm pretty sure there is A LOT more than what we see right now. What we are seeing is very limited. I cant judge which side did wrong, or which side is lying in some facts.
I believe there is some misunderstanding involve as well, but from what I see right now, SCllCon definitely made mistake with contract, they shouldnt really do that, im not like representation of Korean SCllConn I dont know no story behind the scene, but from what we see
SCllCon did made mistake, but we shouldnt judge too quickly
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On August 13 2011 05:16 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:12 BaekHo wrote:On August 13 2011 05:05 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?
It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.
Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us. you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket. First, ya that's what im saying. What you said is why Koreans not playing in NASL. You said, free quipment and maybe domestic plane ticket. Now, look at it. Even when you have sponsorship, you can hardly can domesstic plane ticket, and now if you want to come from Korea to States or even EU, you have to pay about twice or third times more flight ticket, and extra for food, hotel, etc. Now, even if you have sponsorship, you will have to struggle lot to make that much of money to come to States, but most of Korean pro gaming team dont even have spoonsorship, so guess what, you wanna go to States? then make your own money and go. Teams will not support you with amount of money. You also said that American pro gamers are not rolling around in pile of cash, and I m aware (I myself is pro gamer afterall) of that. In Korea, however, if you are in Pro gaming team, unlike foreign team, you have your own schedule. Do we have our own? No we leave all different places, we study, or do part time job and play games then make money with work AND tournaments. Have you ever thought about why korean skill is superior? Because while you try to make money and afford your life, Korean gamer, 5 people sleep in same room, you practice 12 hours a day, none stop, not even rest during weekend, so you will have time to work? Guess not. no. they devote everything there. You wanna do part time job? Ok then good bye for you we dont want you in team.Simple as that. That's fine. And if you can't afford to play in NASL, I completely understand that. But then don't sign up and screw over the tournament. Be polite, tell them you can't afford it, and move on. Don't sign a contract. Sure, the fans might be sad about that, but they wouldn't be mad.
You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa
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Are we suppose to be sad? It's the korean's loss. This article makes me rage. NASL did nothing wrong, infact, they did a good job not caving in too much, although I do think they gave the koreans a little bit more respect than they deserve.
Koreans need to respect foreign leagues and not pretend they are UBER DUBER royalty ETC.
Koreans with too much power can be such kids sometimes...
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SCllCon is definitely representing the Players, but it is important to recognize that they are not actually representing individual. Thus, making bias that there can be huge miscommunication within the group. Vast majority might agree to do so in certain subject while otheres disagree, they are new, making too many mistakes, which cannot be justify.
I believe they should recognize it and be very careful with it (Especially contract.)
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Koreans pulling out after signing contracts at the last possible minute -- this just sounds like incompetent management to me. Jokers.
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On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.
Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.
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On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands. Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea. It isn't like the NASL could sue the Korean teams for all that money they don't have, either. Just a lose/lose situation all round.
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On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands. Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.
Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same.
I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.
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On August 13 2011 05:19 BaekHo wrote:
You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa
I think you're misunderstanding me. The only thing I'm bashing them for IS the contract issue.
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On August 13 2011 05:30 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands. Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea. Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same. I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.
Only if you allow it
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On August 13 2011 05:33 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:19 BaekHo wrote:
You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa I think you're misunderstanding me. The only thing I'm bashing them for IS the contract issue.
I guess I was then ;D my fault. Regardlesss, many started to say they are hating Korean Team and Gamers from now on, so I think it was worth to speak out. As for contract matter, they really have to get bash for that if what NASL is saying is true. (fact that they signed it then decide to not do it)
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On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands. Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.
o.k.
hi i am a company. i just go screwed by a bunch of people and just because the market is new im just gonna bend over and take it.
not saying they should sue them for all that sc2con is worth but make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong.
and this is my opinion. and as opinions go there is nothing wrong we me expressing mine
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On August 13 2011 05:40 integrity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands. Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea. o.k. hi i am a company. i just go screwed by a bunch of people and just because the market is new im just gonna bend over and take it. not saying they should sue them for all that sc2con is worth but make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong. and this is my opinion. and as opinions go there is nothing wrong we me expressing mine
I get what you are saying, it just wouldn't be worth it in the long run. They can't sue them to make them play and suing them for money would be pointless since its obvious that Koreans teams are barely making any, if not flat out losing money. The one thing the contracts show is that NASL aren't in the wrong here.
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On August 13 2011 05:40 integrity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands. Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea. o.k. hi i am a company. i just go screwed by a bunch of people and just because the market is new im just gonna bend over and take it. not saying they should sue them for all that sc2con is worth but make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong. and this is my opinion. and as opinions go there is nothing wrong we me expressing mine
just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good one. i work in law and even i think it'd be stupid to sue them. it just serves no practical purpose and will only hurt relations.
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On August 13 2011 05:35 BaekHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On August 13 2011 05:19 BaekHo wrote:
You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa I think you're misunderstanding me. The only thing I'm bashing them for IS the contract issue. I guess I was then ;D my fault. Regardlesss, many started to say they are hating Korean Team and Gamers from now on, so I think it was worth to speak out. As for contract matter, they really have to get bash for that if what NASL is saying is true. (fact that they signed it then decide to not do it)
the people who say that are the loudest and most obnoxious. those posters tend to create drama out of thin air and always create the illusion that everybody is angry when most people are indifferent
i think most of us can agree that it is just unfortunate for both sides.
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On August 13 2011 05:34 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 05:30 Cyrak wrote:On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands. Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea. Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same. I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life. Only if you allow it
What do you mean? These hegemonic institutions (KESPA, SCIICon) have been part of Starcraft gaming in Korea for long enough that they seem irrevocably entrenched.
I don't think it's a question of allowing it or not. Barring the scenario where these organizations cease to exist or have no sway they're going to have to be dealt with and they're probably going to act the way that SC2Con is right now. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, but it just seems like the reality that tournament organizers have to live in.
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EPT
