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On August 13 2011 06:25 Xeris wrote:Well, we continue the league!  We'll make an announcement within the next few days about our new list of players, etc! =D
Good luck Xeris! We know how hard you (and the rest of the staff) work to make the NASL run. Its too bad this happened, but hopefully some players with outside deals (like MC with SK) will still be able to participate along with Rain and Puma and the great foreigners in the NASL.
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IMO it doesn't seem fair for all the players qualifying for NASL finals to get an equal travel stipend, as people already living in the states will probably profit from this while koreans will be down hundreds of dollars. I think something like a $500 stiped for north americans and $1500 for "international" players is much more reasonable.
Also if NASL is so stretched for cash, why not make the finals top 8 and double elim, like the blizzard NA invitational going on right now? It'll be the same amount of games, likely the same hype and quality of gameplay (if not better because it's all top 8 players) and half the travel costs.
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On August 13 2011 06:55 ShinyGerbil wrote:
IMO it doesn't seem fair for all the players qualifying for NASL finals to get an equal travel stipend, as people already living in the states will probably profit from this while koreans will be down hundreds of dollars. I think something like a $500 stiped for north americans and $1500 for "international" players is much more reasonable.
Also if NASL is so stretched for cash, why not make the finals top 8 and double elim, like the blizzard NA invitational going on right now? It'll be the same amount of games, likely the same hype and quality of gameplay (if not better because it's all top 8 players) and half the travel costs.
To avoid abuse:
You get up to $x travel stipend if you make your own accommodations.
You get $x+y or even full coverage if you allow NASL to make them for you so money are not wasted.
I recall there was a LOT of downtime during the NASL broadcast. Supposedly a lot was happening @ the venue, but given the bo3 single elimination system there are not all that many games. From a stream viewer perspective one can argue the entire event can be done in 2 days instead of 3.
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this is so stupid, im guessing your not paying for other peoples travels who are attending the event eg from Europe, why should Koreans benefit even if they are some of the best, or are nasl already paying for their tickets
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On August 13 2011 06:38 Hikari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 06:20 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:
In regards to Blizzard tournaments, as the owners of the game, it's all advertising to them. All the money they put in most likely comes out of their advertising budget, and is not expected to return a direct profit. Maybe that is why blizzcon/the current invitations are free to watch over amazing directTV streams, while other leagues have a membership fee+commercials?
Correct. Tournaments like NASL, MLG, and NASL are selling the tournament as the product- therefore, they have to make money on it.
BlizzCon and the Blizzard invitationals, on the other hand (as well as the IGN Proleague, I believe, but as I am posting this on my phone, I don't want to say for certain because it would be too much trouble to look up right now) have a product that is completely independent of the tournament. The tournaments are really just advertising their other products, and therefore don't have to be self-sustaining because the money is coming in elsewhere.
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On August 13 2011 07:13 Snipershot wrote:
this is so stupid, im guessing your not paying for other peoples travels who are attending the event eg from Europe, why should Koreans benefit even if they are some of the best, or are nasl already paying for their tickets
NASL has already stated that the adjustments/accomodations they made (in regards to the travel stipends) apply to every player, not just the Koreans.
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I see absolutely ZERO justification from the Korean side. If you don't want to participate, then DON'T. But don't blame it on the NASL because they don't want to pay for YOUR tickets. If you don't want to participate, then don't, but don't victimize the NASL for it. Utter garbage by SC2con.
Also, the adjustment of the travel stipend and reduced prize pool does not make it so "same amount of prize money one." It means, no matter how you perform, you're giving up less to go.
Absolutely AWFUL statement by them, in fact, I'm actually more supportive of the NASL if this was their mentality (despite it not being an official statement).
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didn't players have to share rooms and stuff for NASL? That's pretty extreme..
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Just because players expressly agree to a contract DOES NOT mean that a contract is fair. Not all contracts are made clear and people sign bad contracts all the time, even without a language barrier. The NASL is lucky that they're escaping without a lawsuit, in my opinion. If it were Americans being treated this way within their own country, a much larger outcry would happen. It may be bm for the koreans to bow out so last minute, but compared to an unfair contract lawsuit, NASL is getting off easy.
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It's amazing to see people who play a game for a living, with 40k on the line, see playing 1 series a week as a waste of their time unless they are paid on top of it.
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On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:
I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.
Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.
People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).
In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go. Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more. Please think before you post. You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post.
Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
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On August 13 2011 07:31 daowns wrote:
Just because players expressly agree to a contract DOES NOT mean that a contract is fair. Not all contracts are made clear and people sign bad contracts all the time, even without a language barrier. The NASL is lucky that they're escaping without a lawsuit, in my opinion. If it were Americans being treated this way within their own country, a much larger outcry would happen. It may be bm for the koreans to bow out so last minute, but compared to an unfair contract lawsuit, NASL is getting off easy.
lol, unfair contract lawsuit...that's a good one. You obviously have no idea how contracts, the legal system, or the world in general operates. There is such a thing as a breach of contract lawsuit (in which case it would be the Koreans being sued, not NASL), but there is no such thing as an unfair contract lawsuit. And Americans DID sign the contract and they didn't make a fuss about it, albeit their costs are less than Koreans. However, all this talk about lawsuits is moot. I highly doubt there will be one as the legal costs would most likely be higher than the payout, not to mention it would blemish NASL's reputation and future relations with Korea.
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On August 13 2011 07:31 daowns wrote:
Just because players expressly agree to a contract DOES NOT mean that a contract is fair. Not all contracts are made clear and people sign bad contracts all the time, even without a language barrier. The NASL is lucky that they're escaping without a lawsuit, in my opinion. If it were Americans being treated this way within their own country, a much larger outcry would happen. It may be bm for the koreans to bow out so last minute, but compared to an unfair contract lawsuit, NASL is getting off easy.
LOL what?
How is NASL making them sign a bad contract? What complaint could the koreans make to actually sue NASL? NASL has not broken any contract or done anything wrong.
IF you don't think the contract is fair or the league is fair, don't qualify. But by signing the contracts, they agreed to the terms, whether they are fair or not (which they are) doesn't matter when you already agreed to them.
Koreans broke the contracts, not NASL.
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On August 13 2011 07:49 CatharsisUT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:
I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.
Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.
People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).
In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go. Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more. Please think before you post. You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post. Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
The problem is that they have their own practice schedule already. Imagine if your practice schedule involves waking up at, say, 10 am, and pretty much practicing all day with food breaks and exercise breaks (basically, a normal schedule) until 2 am. That there is their job schedule. Waking up at 4 am is an ADDED burden that is not a part of their normal job schedule.
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On August 13 2011 08:04 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 07:49 CatharsisUT wrote:On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:
I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.
Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.
People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).
In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go. Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more. Please think before you post. You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post. Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. The problem is that they have their own practice schedule already. Imagine if your practice schedule involves waking up at, say, 10 am, and pretty much practicing all day with food breaks and exercise breaks (basically, a normal schedule) until 2 am. That there is their job schedule. Waking up at 4 am is an ADDED burden that is not a part of their normal job schedule.
Yeah, but they get a chance at a $100,000 prize pool. Thats why they signed up in the first place. Is it ideal? No. Is it so difficult that they won't do it? Seems unlikely as they went through season 1 and did very well. Plus NASL was working the schedules so they would play at 2 am this season, which isn't that bad at all.
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Welcome to the real world. Sometimes you have to do things at inconvevient times to do your job. Or you can half-ass it. We can see what they have chosen.
Edit: I think some people in the community have this idea that real jobs have a well-defined timeframe each day. The truth is that none of the good ones do. This is further evidence.
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On August 13 2011 06:55 ShinyGerbil wrote:
IMO it doesn't seem fair for all the players qualifying for NASL finals to get an equal travel stipend, as people already living in the states will probably profit from this while koreans will be down hundreds of dollars. I think something like a $500 stiped for north americans and $1500 for "international" players is much more reasonable.
Also if NASL is so stretched for cash, why not make the finals top 8 and double elim, like the blizzard NA invitational going on right now? It'll be the same amount of games, likely the same hype and quality of gameplay (if not better because it's all top 8 players) and half the travel costs.
Hence North American Starleague. If you don't want to compete, then don't. It's really blowing my mind all these people thinking that players should be entitled to additional compensation despite being an even larger convenience than those in NA.
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Judging from the limited information we have receiving, I'm not liking SC2con at all. Seems like some players do want to play regardless of all this(sC) but are limited because of SC2con? Sounds like Kespa vSC2 more than helping out players interest. Playing in the qualifiers for a league then promptly before the league starts saying "we don't like your league so unless you change X we won't play" is childish. You raise your concerns far in advance.
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It's been said before that the vehicle of Esports is technology, but I would say money is a close second. Here's hoping that there will be some high profile corporate sponsors in the future who will take care of things like this.
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So I guess signing a contract for season 2 and then breaching that contract is no big deal in Korealand. If they didn't like the conditions, they should not have signed and waited this long to pull out, pretty simple. Really shameful and unprofessional on the korean teams' part.
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EPT
