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On August 13 2011 04:53 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 04:50 BaekHo wrote:
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."
No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.
Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?
Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.
You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.
A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.
As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.
Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.
Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?
One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.
I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.
I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see. Then why did they sign an agreement saying that they agreed with the terms and conditions? NASL even accommodated some of their demands. I don't care how poor you are - that doesn't excuse unethical behaviour.
How the heck Do I know? Am I coach of Team? No. I m just oridary guy who love Starcraft ll and love watching it. Do you think you are only one whos angry about what happened? there are like thousands more.
What I am saying is just dont look at one side. Do you think all players are aware such contract is happening, reading sorts of things, thinking and carefully consider? Think not. Most will let their coaches and managers decide. Of course SCllCons reflect what players want, but that doesn't necessarily mean that players are doing = SCllcons is doing.
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On August 12 2011 16:23 1biza wrote:
Did they seriously charge them $80 for the airport shuttle? It was completely free for my buddy and I, and we stayed at the same hotel.
NASL should set up a volunteer program.
Recently, we had a tennis tournament in town, with professional athletes flying in from all around the world. There were volunteers waiting at baggage claim with a sign with the player's name. This volunteer would assist with baggage claim, and lead the pros to a waiting car. Other volunteers drove the pros from the airport to the hotel. More volunteers were waiting at the hotel to assist with check-in and general orientation. There were many more volunteers at the venue covering lots of other functions.... Real professional athletes expect this level of service.
People volunteer because they love the sport and want to help. They get to meet the players. They get a free ticket to one night of tennis. If eSports is to explode, providing this level of service to the eAthletes should be standard. And it shouldn't cost NASL one extra penny because it is run by volunteers.
I find it sad that NASL charged the players $80 for a shuttle when many fans would have done it for free. Who wouldn't want to drive Boxer, MC, July from the airport to the hotel?
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On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?
It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.
Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.
The point is -- why sign a contract and wait 10 days before ever mentioning that you have a problem, then waiting another 5 days to say that you won't participate. This is the real issue.
Their other concerns are totally valid. They just waited so long to tell us that it really hurt the progress of our league.
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SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.
More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.
Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.
The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.
$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.
I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.
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On August 13 2011 04:57 BaekHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 04:53 Azzur wrote:On August 13 2011 04:50 BaekHo wrote:
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."
No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.
Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?
Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.
You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.
A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.
As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.
Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.
Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?
One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.
I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.
I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see. Then why did they sign an agreement saying that they agreed with the terms and conditions? NASL even accommodated some of their demands. I don't care how poor you are - that doesn't excuse unethical behaviour. How the heck Do I know? Am I coach of Team? No. I m just oridary guy who love Starcraft ll and love watching it. Do you think you are only one whos angry about what happened? there are like thousands more. What I am saying is just dont look at one side. Do you think all players are aware such contract is happening, reading sorts of things, thinking and carefully consider? Think not. Most will let their coaches and managers decide. Of course SCllCons reflect what players want, but that doesn't necessarily mean that players are doing = SCllcons is doing.
I was asking a rhetorical question.
However, I do see and understand what you're saying. Alot of people are blaming parties that are innocent (e.g. players).
In my opinion, I attach the blame only to SC2Con. I'm hoping that some players will realise what a poor organisation it is and stand up for themselves.
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NASL's demand was not enough for Players to play in Tournament. Most of players were still struggling and they thought that waking up 4am once every week and for grand final paying more than 3000+ to go United States will not be affordable, so they decide to not participate on NASL.
Why are you acting so madly? You been talking about why You are angry at Korean gaming teams or players but havent you ever thought about Player's side? I am not saying Every action that SCllCons took can be justify, if they did something wrong, then they will get blame.
However, players were struggling, and they thought its too tough to afford NASL. What do you want more than that? you want to blame them for contracts and stuff? Why would you blame that all on players?
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On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.
More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.
Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.
The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.
$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.
I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.
I dont understand how this is even a serious concern if teams use contracts like all legit organizations.
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just commenting on the NASL reply. everything they said seems completely reasonable. the opinion of the korean article seems to think korean players deserve to be treated like kings. the nasl offered more than fair levels of help for the korean players and yet the reply from the sc2con writer/worker/advisor (whatever he is) seems to be that anything short of 100% of the work being done by NASL isnt enough.
their point about NASL benefiting from korean players seemed especially odd.
in a time where almost every story out of korea involves their monetary issues they dont seem to value team and sponsor exposure at all.
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On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?
It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.
Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.
you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket.
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On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.
More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.
Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.
The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.
$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.
I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.
This is what im saying. Korean teams really lack sponsorship. They cant afford much, except
few teams. I mean even if you have sponsors, its very hard to go across the sea (thinking of expenses) unless you have partnership with foreign team, like oGs-TL, coL-MVP. That's one reason why I believe SCl and SCll should stick together.
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It's a shame to not have Boxer back, but it's the following Koreans are still going to participate:
FXO
Rain
HerO
Puma
I think I can live it that. It's not like there aren't other tournaments out there to watch.
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On August 13 2011 05:02 turdburgler wrote:
just commenting on the NASL reply. everything they said seems completely reasonable. the opinion of the korean article seems to think korean players deserve to be treated like kings. the nasl offered more than fair levels of help for the korean players and yet the reply from the sc2con writer/worker/advisor (whatever he is) seems to be that anything short of 100% of the work being done by NASL isnt enough.
their point about NASL benefiting from korean players seemed especially odd.
in a time where almost every story out of korea involves their monetary issues they dont seem to value team and sponsor exposure at all.
No one from Korean teams/sc2con/GOM has spoken on this matter.
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It's obvious that every korean team are hurting for money, and quite a bit more so due to the pressure they felt (real or imaginary) from foreign teams upon their players. I just wish this is not the way sc2con decides to improve their bottom line though.
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On August 13 2011 05:01 BaekHo wrote:
NASL's demand was not enough for Players to play in Tournament. Most of players were still struggling and they thought that waking up 4am once every week and for grand final paying more than 3000+ to go United States will not be affordable, so they decide to not participate on NASL.
Why are you acting so madly? You been talking about why You are angry at Korean gaming teams or players but havent you ever thought about Player's side? I am not saying Every action that SCllCons took can be justify, if they did something wrong, then they will get blame.
However, players were struggling, and they thought its too tough to afford NASL. What do you want more than that? you want to blame them for contracts and stuff? Why would you blame that all on players?
that's fine. but why do you agree to play in the first place then?
people aren't upset because they left. people are upset they left AFTER THEY GAVE THEIR WORD TO PLAY.
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United States33505 Posts
On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.
More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.
Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.
The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.
$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.
I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.
You realize that SC2con is essentially a united team front -_-
I had such an urge to ban for sheer stupidity, but I fought it off -_-
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IMO a bunch of PR bs, they cant seriously expect the tournament to pay for all the expenses of all the koreans attending it, if you want to enter a tournament, its YOUR responsibility to make sure you can afford to attend it, you want to take an all paid trip/expenses to the tournament in addition to the prize money, thats absurd.
And even using the MLG/GSL as a base of comparison when even that is ridiculously one sided in favor of the koreans coming to play directly seeded when anyone that wants to go to korea only gets to play in the secondary tournament.
NASL in fact offered too much in my opinion, and if they dont want to come and play with that on the table then its their own fault.
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So essentially Koreans do no want the free prize money and NASL doesn't want the thousands of viewers brought in by the Koreans. Sounds like a super good deal for everyone.
On a more serious note to me it seems like it's the Koreans at fault for once rather than NASL. Anyway theres no winners in situations like this and I hope they can come up with somekind of deal thats reasonable for both sides as NASL without the Koreans isn't worth watching *for me*.
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Seems like the NASL did all they could to get the Koreans to stay. They are paying back the deposits within the time frame of their contracts. Really seems like the Koreans need to pick up some lawyers or advisors so they can get some help with the contracts.
From all thats come out so far i'll agree with NASL that it was a bit unprofessional to wait so long to voice concerns they had and then withdraw during the season.
Also it says in the NASL response that they talked to players about what time is best or better for them. Sounds like they were trying to make it better for the Korean players but SC2con wanted even more.
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I predict this to be the beginning of the end for NASL. It can't compete with GSL, IPL, and MLG.
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Btw, Europeans have nearly the same amount to pay for travel expenses. Didnt see the same whining coming from them.
I mean its perfectly ok if they dont want to play in NASL. It has its disadvantages of course playing at these times, with lag etc. But to withdraw after having already signed, and on top of that the shoddy language and false accusations of this reporter /sc2con guy does make it look very bad.
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EPT
