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On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:On September 24 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:25 shid0x wrote:
Heya little man you like macro ?
well we don't.
-Blizzard 2013. We got that macro thing down. We need to get back to harassing and earning those expansions. Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ? No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities. At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit. Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins. Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react.
You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans.
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The fact that the DT speed buff change was even published, and that it was one of their top six ideas for the state of the game right now...
...holy fucking shit. Awareness of blizz balancing ineptitude affirmed. It's a good time for me to post this thread I have saved up..
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On September 24 2013 05:09 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:08 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas. I think we have seen that a section of the community loves to talk about design and have endless discussions about BW as this abstract concept of greatness and then complain about SC2 a lot. People agree about stuff in theory, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of changing things, that is when it all falls apart. Yeah, this is true. Personally, all I want to see is design where there's trade off between two different choices like Warp Gate vs Gateway and smaller, even if still fast, engagements. But that's a pipe dream and I'm gonna just end up crying about balance changes. I guess it doesn't help that I lost my last 5 TvP's from DT harass at 5 bases.
That sounds like a personal problem with DTs. Trust me, I would have been crying in WoL if they buffed the banshee, since it was the bane of my life as a protoss. Warpgate is weird, but also kinda awesome. I would like to see them keep it as it and just make unit that need to travel more awesome(aka, more stargate, more robo, less mass warp ins.).
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On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas.
The only thing the community agrees on is complaining and whining. It's extremely easy to make general criticism, but there is absolutely no agreement on what needs changing, what the improvements should be, or even where the current state of the game is.
It might as well be people being negative for the sake of negative...it's completely unfocused and completely nonconstructive.
I think Blizzard has proven that their small number changes have been far more effective than the community seems to believe, and that they're perfectly happy scrapping a suggested change if it doesn't work out.
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I don't think I've ever seen such a solid list of possible changes. The DT one is a little out of the blue, and the siege tank buff could be really huge (does it affect only siege mode?), but at least there's no change that is counter intuitive.
Can't wait to test these out!
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On September 24 2013 03:59 DifuntO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 03:47 Hier wrote:
Warp Prism? Faster!
Mutas? Faster!
Medivacs? Faster!
Hydras? Faster!
Reapers? Faster!
.
.
.
Borrowed Roaches? Faster!
DTs? Faster!
I think Mine and Tank changes are the only ones on that list even remotely worth looking at. Make tanks faster so they can get away from zealots! Now that would be a good mech buff 
By the time LotV is released, current maps will feel as cramped as Steppes of War with all the fast units zipping around the map.
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Mine nerf will certainly show what other options terran has in tvz especially with the proposed tank buff and it will probably make tvz more balanced. If the nerf is to big is hard to tell but I think it is necessary to further evolve the match up.
Protoss buffs will only make protoss stronger in stages of the game where they already are really strong, early allins and late game (speaking from a terran perspective). And as the diamond player that I am it is with dread filled eyes I look upon these changed already having tons of trouble trying to stop protoss allins <.<
I dont really care about mech/air but I guess when I am trolling with mech my sky transition will be stronger
The roach buff could be interesting but I can't really picture what blizzard want to achieve with it.
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On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game
In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world.
Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up.
As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know."
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On September 24 2013 05:11 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:07 freetgy wrote:On September 24 2013 05:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Undead1993 wrote:
as a toss, i am the happiest man alive right now! Having even stronger coinflippy options makes you that happy ? Man, you must have a disgusting playstyle... not if coinflippy options becomes solid... The thing is those harass options can never become parts of a real army because of how fragile they are. DTs evaporate once they can be detected and any serious anti-air force annihilates oracles in mid-lategame straight fights. I'm sorry but in their current state (glass cannons : low health and huge damage input) DTs and oracles will never be more than coinflippy harass options (less so for DTs since they're invisible and any good player should incorporate them in lategame). The true solid harass option for toss is warp prism, and I feel it's not even used enough now. Protoss is in a really fine state now, those patches would only make PvP uninteresting and unplayable again and give some random tosses undeserved build order wins.
Not 100% true, since you can use spare DT's to turn them into archons, and you can do follow-up warp-ins with DT's if you've killed the opponent's detection.
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On September 24 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:09 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas. I think we have seen that a section of the community loves to talk about design and have endless discussions about BW as this abstract concept of greatness and then complain about SC2 a lot. People agree about stuff in theory, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of changing things, that is when it all falls apart. Yeah, this is true. Personally, all I want to see is design where there's trade off between two different choices like Warp Gate vs Gateway and smaller, even if still fast, engagements. But that's a pipe dream and I'm gonna just end up crying about balance changes. I guess it doesn't help that I lost my last 5 TvP's from DT harass at 5 bases. That sounds like a personal problem with DTs. Trust me, I would have been crying in WoL if they buffed the banshee, since it was the bane of my life as a protoss. Warpgate is weird, but also kinda awesome. I would like to see them keep it as it and just make unit that need to travel more awesome(aka, more stargate, more robo, less mass warp ins.).
I'll be the first to admit that I have a personal problem with DT and am inherently more biased against DT than others might be and that it might be more effective on me as a player than other Terran players. That being said is once you get to a high # of bases, for zerg and Terran, DT harass at multiple locations are really really good and they should be good cause it's a pretty big investment. The thing is, at least Zerg can have spores and spines to handle while Terran's don't have a static defense that they can just put down anywhere regardless of supply. I don't think what I'm saying is too theorycraft that this could be a huge problem especially now since TvP is somewhat hard for the Terran past 4~ bases.
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On September 24 2013 05:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* At least we are consistent. I also love how everyone will post in this thread, but on one plays the test map in question.
Honestly they should give a portrait for 10,000 XP points in a test map or something. The games would be weird as hell, but people will play them.
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On September 24 2013 05:11 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:07 freetgy wrote:On September 24 2013 05:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Undead1993 wrote:
as a toss, i am the happiest man alive right now! Having even stronger coinflippy options makes you that happy ? Man, you must have a disgusting playstyle... not if coinflippy options becomes solid... The thing is those harass options can never become parts of a real army because of how fragile they are. DTs evaporate once they can be detected and any serious anti-air force annihilates oracles in mid-lategame straight fights. I'm sorry but in their current state (glass cannons : low health and huge damage input) DTs and oracles will never be more than coinflippy harass options (less so for DTs since they're invisible and any good player should incorporate them in lategame). The true solid harass option for toss is warp prism, and I feel it's not even used enough now. Protoss is in a really fine state now, those patches would only make PvP uninteresting and unplayable again and give some random tosses undeserved build order wins.
well i oppose this, yes for the average player it may not change much, except some "undeserve" wins,
but it will open up micro potential and harass/multitask options on multiple locations better which way more benefit "better" players and this is a good thing. If DTs become a viable strategy, the other players obviously will have to solidify their builds reducing early game vulnerability (for little opportunity cost).
Once dts currently are scouted/used once in a game, they're generally useless for the rest of the game, except of building archons. This is generally something that can be changed for the better of the game.
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On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:On September 24 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
We got that macro thing down. We need to get back to harassing and earning those expansions. Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ? No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities. At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit. Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins. Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans.
And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots running by are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. Turns out they both kill a lot of shit when left to their own devices unopposed.
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On September 24 2013 04:59 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:49 Dauntless wrote:Siege Tank DPS
Current 0 +1 +2 +3
vs non-Armored: 11.67 12.67 13.67 14.67
vs Armored: 16.67 18.34 20 21.67
Post-Patch: - - - -
vs non-Armored: 12.96 14.07 15.19 16.30
vs Armored: 18.52 20.4 22.23 24.07
DPS-wise, this basically means Siege Tanks always start with +1 (and then some), but it goes up to +4. If that isn't significant, I don't know what is. It's a 10% DPS buff. It's ok. The sky is not falling with 10% DPS ok?
Whoever said the sky was falling? I merely claimed it was a significant buff. Remember, Siege Tanks do splash damage, that multiplies the effect of this buff.
I think it will be a good and noticeable buff.
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On September 24 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:09 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas. I think we have seen that a section of the community loves to talk about design and have endless discussions about BW as this abstract concept of greatness and then complain about SC2 a lot. People agree about stuff in theory, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of changing things, that is when it all falls apart. Yeah, this is true. Personally, all I want to see is design where there's trade off between two different choices like Warp Gate vs Gateway and smaller, even if still fast, engagements. But that's a pipe dream and I'm gonna just end up crying about balance changes. I guess it doesn't help that I lost my last 5 TvP's from DT harass at 5 bases. That sounds like a personal problem with DTs. Trust me, I would have been crying in WoL if they buffed the banshee, since it was the bane of my life as a protoss. Warpgate is weird, but also kinda awesome. I would like to see them keep it as it and just make unit that need to travel more awesome(aka, more stargate, more robo, less mass warp ins.).
Apparently what you want is like the opposite of 90% of Protoss players on here who want Gateway units to be able to stand up against MMM
DT's are hard for Terran to deal with because of the amount of attention required to deal with them vs the amount of attention required to use them. This speed buff makes them much harder to defend and quite a bit easier to use. That being said, I think it's a step in the right direction for giving Protoss a viable not hard-counter-able form of harass, but it's definitely going to make late game TvP hellish in terms of attention (not that it isn't already though).
On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:
[quote]
Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ?
No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities.
At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit. Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins. Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots running by are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. Turns out they both kill a lot of shit when left to their own devices unopposed.
The problem with DT's the that they require much more attention to deal with than Zealots. In TvP no matter what army you're using (even the absurdly expensive Ghost Viking) one second of inattention can mean you lose your entire army. Giving DTs a massive speed buff means they're going to require much more attention to defend effectively. Not unstoppable by any means, but certainly a massive buff to Protoss.
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On September 24 2013 05:01 Anachromy wrote:
Personally I think that the DT change is for the best. and here's my reasoning.
adding more utility to the unit will prevent some of it's coin flippy-ness. instead of having situations where "Oh crap... detection, I lose" and "Nice, no detection! I Win!" now you can have this middle ground where "ok... there's a turret/spore up in the mineral line, I'll kill a few and retreat back, if I can fall back to my main army I'll make them archon's and add them to the army comp, expand, and continue my macro game."
that sounds a lot more fun... right?
When you commit to a tech path as Protoss. you really need to be able to do SOMETHING with it, no matter what.
I completely agree with you. It's hard to know if the new speed would be too fast or maybe just right without seeing it. And that's the problem with oracles! They are much more coinflippy than dts imo. In many cases, a stargate becomes useless once your first oracle is out, and almost everything you can do with a stargate as a follow up is suboptimal in PvP imo... whereas in PvT, it's just plain useless unless you're up against turtle terran and need tempest, or if you really want revelation.
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On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:
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Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ?
No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities.
At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit. Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins. Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard.
I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this.
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Sees possible terran buffs:
YearofNaama
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I don't understand the logic of making toss units more gimmicky rather than actually addressing things like how the race is played. Look at the other race changes... it's exactly what they're trying to do.. but protoss they have some disconnect or something? :/ I dunno... really kind of depressing though... I guess I'll just keep using those units though... Hope to see some better ideas @_@;;
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I think they all seem pretty decent
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EPT
