EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 149
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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LiSAuCE
United States47 Posts
I'm assuming you get a sentry FIRST for the halluc phoenix, then forcefield. That's a good point. A probe scout should reveal fourgate or not. Rest is up to phoenix. So i'm guessing 3 gate robo is standard defense against fourgate. Then expand? Thanks for all the advice. One gate fe seems to risky most of the time. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
edit: you can't choose your tech in time, but you can deviate after choosing your tech based on what your scout; for instance if you open stargate and go against blink, cut phoenixes and play more defensively. Also, i don't recommend doing robo expands as those die very easily to a variety of hots builds. There really isn't a "standard" 4gate defense in the sense that none 4gates as i posted above. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
Watch yonghwa/trap from last night, good example of PvP these days besides the unorthodox colossus play from yonghwa | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
1) mothership core 2) impossible high ground warp in (most important of them all imo) 3) single gas builds not being flexible at all, even 2/3 gate aggression usually gets 2 gasses these days 4) it was already quite a lot weaker in wol anyway. | ||
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LiSAuCE
United States47 Posts
Thanks for all the help. 4 gate is easy enough to scout, so no worries there. If I get one gate fe down I think i'll do really well in my league (plat). Most of them 4 gate or one base. Time to ditch the trusty 3 stalker opening.... | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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LiSAuCE
United States47 Posts
You mentioned that there is no perfect tech obviously because halluc isn't fast enough, so what do you lean towards? To me with the weakness of robo there's only 2 options, sg or blnik stalker | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
All have their weaknesses though; stargate is still a bit weak to blink and the mirror is annoying as shit to play, but some variations of it can punish 1gate fe nicely. Blink has an annoying mirror too, and sometimes you feel like you can't do damage at all and fall behind, plus it's super hard to execute. The dt thing falls behind vs 1gate fe but punishes builds with no detection (blink) or slower/not as reliable detection (stargate, some dt builds). | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On July 31 2013 02:42 Teoita wrote: Possibly. I don't think there are enoug pro games to judge though, on paper the 1gate fe player could just cancel the nexus defend his ramp with ff's and buy time for immortals. This of course depends on chronoboost usage, number of units off gateways and whatnot. None really 4gates anymore so who knows. edit: you can't choose your tech in time, but you can deviate after choosing your tech based on what your scout; for instance if you open stargate and go against blink, cut phoenixes and play more defensively. Also, i don't recommend doing robo expands as those die very easily to a variety of hots builds. There really isn't a "standard" 4gate defense in the sense that none 4gates as i posted above. I've defended 4gate with 1 gate FE, the nexus cannon buys you enough time to get up more gates. Normally its because they get greedy and try to push up the main when the should just sentry the ramp, but w/e Also 4 gates are super easy to scout since people are double gassing and aren't getting units until stalker, so just judging by chrono, its pretty easy to know its coming | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On July 31 2013 02:49 LiSAuCE wrote: One last question. Do you expand immediately after 1 gate and sentry? Or do you get core before also. What's the expand timing. Thanks for all the help. 4 gate is easy enough to scout, so no worries there. If I get one gate fe down I think i'll do really well in my league (plat). Most of them 4 gate or one base. Time to ditch the trusty 3 stalker opening.... I think you should take a look at Naniwa's 1 gate FE. I do something pretty similar. I've decided to add a spoiler tag because I don't want to post a wall of text. Naniwa's 1 gate FE + notes: + Show Spoiler + If you get a stalker first, like Naniwa, you can freely scout around with it, a probe, and your msc (generally just for proxy stargates or pylons, you don't want to lose it). If you get a sentry first (my favorite way of doing it), you won't have as much map control, but you will have enough energy for 2 force fields or a hallucinated phoenix before 6 minutes, which is fairly useful imo. It's advisable to get a sentry and a stalker out as your first 2 units, so you can both force field your ramp and have dps to deal with a msc and whatnot. The build goes like this: Chrono on probes until your msc is out 13 gate 14 gas (3 probes) cybernectics core --> gas (3 probes) (...) WG (chrono x2) + sentry (or stalker) Do not get a msc right away! First, you should get 16 probes on minerals + a spare one to build the nexus and scout around/build proxy pylons. After building this last probe, go ahead and build your msc. You can start your second gateway unit before or after your nexus. It doesn't matter much. The next thing to worry about is building a gateway at 4:50-4:55, since wg will finish at about 6:00. You will get another sentry and a robo (about 5:10). Then you get a pylon (can be proxied or not), and you can resume probe production or cut probes if you need to warp in units (it's ok to warp in 2 more units for defense imo). What's nice at this point is that if you don't see any form of very early aggression, you can hallucination a phoenix to scout your opponent and not make too many units in case they also expanded as well as scout their tech choices. Naniwa's 1 gate FE VODs: + Show Spoiler + By the way, if you're a replay freak, you should be able to find these 2 replays in dreamhack's latest replay pack. And I find this build much better than what Rsvp used to do to be totally honest... I'm obviously not even close to his level, but still. I'd been tweaking my own 1 gate FE just before Naniwa did this strategy, and surprisingly the only thing different from Naniwa's build that I was considering doing, but wasn't part of my build yet, was the 2 chrono's on wg. Besides my first gateway unit, of course. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3291 Posts
I need a build for pvp. Something more fleshed out than 3 stalker rush like there is in the op. Also is 4 pheonix still a common follow up to FFE or have people been favoring other follow ups for various reasons. Is gateway expand used on every map like FFE or are there certain maps were you have to FFE or gateway expand? Correct me if I'm wrong i don't think these questions were answered in the Op. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On July 31 2013 02:34 Teoita wrote: There's actually a video somewhere of Squirtle holding off a 4gate with 1gate fe. I can't find it atm; i know for a fact it was delayed though (as in, first 4 stalkers and then attack as opposed to busting up the ramp with zealot/stalker/probe). I am not sure this is the best example, but here is huk x capoch on whirlwind, when huk holds a 4-gate with 1-gate FE: + Show Spoiler + The natural layout of whirlwind really helps. Even in maps with a different layout, unless it is another 4-player map, the 1-gate FE player can always core-scout and get info in time before commiting to expo. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On July 31 2013 08:11 MysteryMeat1 wrote: Yo guys, I took a 3 month break and I have watched a little bit. I need a build for pvp. Something more fleshed out than 3 stalker rush like there is in the op. Also is 4 pheonix still a common follow up to FFE or have people been favoring other follow ups for various reasons. Is gateway expand used on every map like FFE or are there certain maps were you have to FFE or gateway expand? Correct me if I'm wrong i don't think these questions were answered in the Op. Look at the post above you, gate FE is pretty standard in the current metagame. | ||
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LiSAuCE
United States47 Posts
On July 31 2013 05:22 vhapter wrote: I've held a very aggressive gateway pressure build the other day with a 1 gate FE. The guy only had 3 gateways for some reason (maybe he went double gas and only made stalkers... can't recall), but he definitely spent 4 chronos on his cybernetics core. I'm not sure if canceling your nexus is absolutely necessary, but I did cancel mine and photon overcharge bought me enough time to pretty much win the game once my first or second immortal came out. I didn't even scout on 13, all I did was spot his proxy pylon and then I canceled my nexus. And I wasn't doing a 3 gate robo build either, it was just a 2 gate robo build like Naniwa does (2 chronos on wg). I didn't send a probe scout to his base at all, all I did was spot his pylon and the fact that he warped in units at about 5:45, which was enough information to adapt to his push. I think you should take a look at Naniwa's 1 gate FE. I do something pretty similar. I've decided to add a spoiler tag because I don't want to post a wall of text. Naniwa's 1 gate FE + notes: + Show Spoiler + If you get a stalker first, like Naniwa, you can freely scout around with it, a probe, and your msc (generally just for proxy stargates or pylons, you don't want to lose it). If you get a sentry first (my favorite way of doing it), you won't have as much map control, but you will have enough energy for 2 force fields or a hallucinated phoenix before 6 minutes, which is fairly useful imo. It's advisable to get a sentry and a stalker out as your first 2 units, so you can both force field your ramp and have dps to deal with a msc and whatnot. The build goes like this: Chrono on probes until your msc is out 13 gate 14 gas (3 probes) cybernectics core --> gas (3 probes) (...) WG (chrono x2) + sentry (or stalker) Do not get a msc right away! First, you should get 16 probes on minerals + a spare one to build the nexus and scout around/build proxy pylons. After building this last probe, go ahead and build your msc. You can start your second gateway unit before or after your nexus. It doesn't matter much. The next thing to worry about is building a gateway at 4:50-4:55, since wg will finish at about 6:00. You will get another sentry and a robo (about 5:10). Then you get a pylon (can be proxied or not), and you can resume probe production or cut probes if you need to warp in units (it's ok to warp in 2 more units for defense imo). What's nice at this point is that if you don't see any form of very early aggression, you can hallucination a phoenix to scout your opponent and not make too many units in case they also expanded as well as scout their tech choices. Naniwa's 1 gate FE VODs: + Show Spoiler + By the way, if you're a replay freak, you should be able to find these 2 replays in dreamhack's latest replay pack. And I find this build much better than what Rsvp used to do to be totally honest... I'm obviously not even close to his level, but still. I'd been tweaking my own 1 gate FE just before Naniwa did this strategy, and surprisingly the only thing different from Naniwa's build that I was considering doing, but wasn't part of my build yet, was the 2 chrono's on wg. Besides my first gateway unit, of course. Thanks a bunch man this really helps. | ||
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LiSAuCE
United States47 Posts
I tried out Naniwa's one gate expand and it worked beautifully! It really is all about timing. You either want to do it early, or worst case late, after you have a lot of gates. It's just in the middle where expanding is dangerous. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3291 Posts
On July 31 2013 10:26 mizU wrote: Look at the post above you, gate FE is pretty standard in the current metagame. Is there anything for PvZ or does protoss vs. zerg guide still cover everything? | ||
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herMan
Japan2053 Posts
On July 31 2013 14:16 MysteryMeat1 wrote: Is there anything for PvZ or does protoss vs. zerg guide still cover everything? Asking the same thing here, is the PvZ guide still absolute or are there some points that have fallen into obscurity by the shifting meta? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
1) Macro openers almost always open stargate because of how INCREDIBLY scary mutas are. You can't beat them with blink/templar anymore. 2) You don't have to kill them before they reach a deathball. Maxed protoss tech-heavy armies can beat maxed zerg armies now. 3) Tech switching is very very common for zerg, so you MUST scout like a madman. For instance, hydra pressure into mutalisk is very common against the standard stargate/4gate/robo/colossus/third builds. 4) Zergs rely less on roaches and more on hydralisks to defend 2base timngs. This has brought some older allins back, specifically the 2colo push: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416819. You can still do things like soultrain and 7gate but it's less popular 5) 3base pushes focus on hitting much much faster and with less tech and econ; for instance, stardust's immortal/zealot/sentry build hits at about the 11 minute mark. The goal is usually to hit before swarm hosts, not broods. Attacking into swarm hosts is suicide unless you have your deathball ready to go, and that requires a LOT of time and economy; it's not uncommon for protoss to be even or ahead in bases in lategame now. | ||
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herMan
Japan2053 Posts
On July 31 2013 19:21 Teoita wrote: PvZ has changed really really heavily. Generally: 1) Macro openers almost always open stargate because of how INCREDIBLY scary mutas are. You can't beat them with blink/templar anymore. 2) You don't have to kill them before they reach a deathball. Maxed protoss tech-heavy armies can beat maxed zerg armies now. 3) Tech switching is very very common for zerg, so you MUST scout like a madman. For instance, hydra pressure into mutalisk is very common against the standard stargate/4gate/robo/colossus/third builds. 4) Zergs rely less on roaches and more on hydralisks to defend 2base timngs. This has brought some older allins back, specifically the 2colo push: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416819. You can still do things like soultrain and 7gate but it's less popular 5) 3base pushes focus on hitting much much faster and with less tech and econ; for instance, stardust's immortal/zealot/sentry build hits at about the 11 minute mark. The goal is usually to hit before swarm hosts, not broods. Attacking into swarm hosts is suicide unless you have your deathball ready to go, and that requires a LOT of time and economy; it's not uncommon for protoss to be even or ahead in bases in lategame now. Thanks for the fast reply, appreciate it. As for your claim for protoss having being ahead in bases in lategame, do you mean that this applies only when zerg opts for a swarm host based composition? Am I correct in assuming that swarm hosts are generally defensive units and cannot really go around attacking fringe bases? | ||
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