EPTIf he's doing ultra/ling, muta/corruptor or if he's being dumb and still sticking with roach/hydra for the whole game (you'd be surprised how many people try and fail this) you shouldn't expand as aggressively.
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 150
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
If he's doing ultra/ling, muta/corruptor or if he's being dumb and still sticking with roach/hydra for the whole game (you'd be surprised how many people try and fail this) you shouldn't expand as aggressively. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
I've been experimenting with a 5 stalker rush with gas steal into 3 gate with whatever tech I feel is best for the situation and I'm currently on a 12 game win streak in PvP. My thoughts behind it are: If he builds a mothership core and expands, I should be able to kill the nexus with 3 gate pressure or at least pick off some stuff while teching(I can provide replays when I get home). If he reactively chronoboosts warpgate to put on pressure I should be able to see it with an initial stalker poke and prepare accordingly with sentries since he won't have his initial units out as fast as I do and his first unit is very likely to be a zealot attacking the assimilator in his base. In other words his choices can be: - tech and ignore early defense which makes my 5 stalker push game winning in some situations. - mothership core expand which leaves them with very late tech while I'm already teching (to stargate usually because I feel like it punishes a core expand the hardest) - chrono warpgate and attack which I just need to hold while making probies and teching It's been working for me at masters level and I haven't run into anything that really screws me over hard. Obviously I don't do it if I see double assimilator, instead I'd do a 3 stalker opening with tech after my first stalker. Any feedback, criticism, thoughts? PS: sometimes I even see if they're chronoboosting warpgate or not if their cyber core is in vision range of my assimilator. And I think I can always see whether or not they're making a core. Still looking for feedback yo! Wanna know if this is viable at all to throw into the mix, especially because I'm having lots of fun with it. | ||
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BernabusStarcraft2
Scotland112 Posts
Blink>SG SG>Robo Robo>Blink Robo>DT DT>Blink Like there is no safe way to play. PvP is the shittest mu in the game, it was fine in wings when i could just 2 gate Robo and play nice and safe. Is there any build that exists that is OK against everything else. Or at least dosnt auto lose me games? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
That said, there already were decent builds in WoL that would fast expand while staying on one gas for quite a bit, so i think he can definitely hold off your push with correct play. You shouldn't expect to kill off the nexus but the push can still put you in a good spot if you scare him into cutting probes and playing overly defensively (easy way to lose if you aren't used to fast expanding in PvP). Also scouting with an assimilator can be chancy because you might not see his cyber core. That said, yeah, why not. Keep in mind that realistically you will hardly do it since the vast majority of people go 15/15 gas anyway. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 31 2013 19:45 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote: PvP is really pissing me off. There is no safety on the ladder it seams so luck based. I would say 50% of my pvp games are build order wins. Blink>SG SG>Robo Robo>Blink Robo>DT DT>Blink Like there is no safe way to play. PvP is the shittest mu in the game, it was fine in wings when i could just 2 gate Robo and play nice and safe. Is there any build that exists that is OK against everything else. Or at least dosnt auto lose me games? You could try either some kind of fast expand into robo (which is more or less a 2gate robo adapted to hots) or a dt expo with a robo. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On July 31 2013 19:48 Teoita wrote: My initial response would be "why not", the gas steal is a nice touch. If you try that stuff vs tech you can easily get caught out of position by things like DT or oracles (i'm usually the teching assholes and i beat players much better than me on paper that way), but if you limit his tech it should work. That said, there already were decent builds in WoL that would fast expand while staying on one gas for quite a bit, so i think he can definitely hold off your push with correct play. You shouldn't expect to kill off the nexus but the push can still put you in a good spot if you scare him into cutting probes and playing overly defensively (easy way to lose if you aren't used to fast expanding in PvP). Also scouting with an assimilator can be chancy because you might not see his cyber core. That said, yeah, why not. Keep in mind that realistically you will hardly do it since the vast majority of people go 15/15 gas anyway. Nice, sounds good. I used to do this build a lot at the end of WoL and it worked like a charm as people would desperately tech or make sentries to hold a push, both of which left me in a super good spot if I followed up with phoenixes. Just recently remembered it again and been trying it in HotS, working well so far. As I said, if there's double gas I just open 3 stalker with tech or stalker/core for a gateway expand. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 31 2013 05:22 vhapter wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I've held a very aggressive gateway pressure build the other day with a 1 gate FE. The guy only had 3 gateways for some reason (maybe he went double gas and only made stalkers... can't recall), but he definitely spent 4 chronos on his cybernetics core. I'm not sure if canceling your nexus is absolutely necessary, but I did cancel mine and photon overcharge bought me enough time to pretty much win the game once my first or second immortal came out. I didn't even scout on 13, all I did was spot his proxy pylon and then I canceled my nexus. And I wasn't doing a 3 gate robo build either, it was just a 2 gate robo build like Naniwa does (2 chronos on wg). I didn't send a probe scout to his base at all, all I did was spot his pylon and the fact that he warped in units at about 5:45, which was enough information to adapt to his push. On July 31 2013 02:49 LiSAuCE wrote: One last question. Do you expand immediately after 1 gate and sentry? Or do you get core before also. What's the expand timing. Thanks for all the help. 4 gate is easy enough to scout, so no worries there. If I get one gate fe down I think i'll do really well in my league (plat). Most of them 4 gate or one base. Time to ditch the trusty 3 stalker opening.... I think you should take a look at Naniwa's 1 gate FE. I do something pretty similar. I've decided to add a spoiler tag because I don't want to post a wall of text. Naniwa's 1 gate FE + notes: + Show Spoiler + If you get a stalker first, like Naniwa, you can freely scout around with it, a probe, and your msc (generally just for proxy stargates or pylons, you don't want to lose it). If you get a sentry first (my favorite way of doing it), you won't have as much map control, but you will have enough energy for 2 force fields or a hallucinated phoenix before 6 minutes, which is fairly useful imo. It's advisable to get a sentry and a stalker out as your first 2 units, so you can both force field your ramp and have dps to deal with a msc and whatnot. The build goes like this: Chrono on probes until your msc is out 13 gate 14 gas (3 probes) cybernectics core --> gas (3 probes) (...) WG (chrono x2) + sentry (or stalker) Do not get a msc right away! First, you should get 16 probes on minerals + a spare one to build the nexus and scout around/build proxy pylons. After building this last probe, go ahead and build your msc. You can start your second gateway unit before or after your nexus. It doesn't matter much. The next thing to worry about is building a gateway at 4:50-4:55, since wg will finish at about 6:00. You will get another sentry and a robo (about 5:10). Then you get a pylon (can be proxied or not), and you can resume probe production or cut probes if you need to warp in units (it's ok to warp in 2 more units for defense imo). What's nice at this point is that if you don't see any form of very early aggression, you can hallucination a phoenix to scout your opponent and not make too many units in case they also expanded as well as scout their tech choices. Naniwa's 1 gate FE VODs: + Show Spoiler + By the way, if you're a replay freak, you should be able to find these 2 replays in dreamhack's latest replay pack. And I find this build much better than what Rsvp used to do to be totally honest... I'm obviously not even close to his level, but still. I'd been tweaking my own 1 gate FE just before Naniwa did this strategy, and surprisingly the only thing different from Naniwa's build that I was considering doing, but wasn't part of my build yet, was the 2 chrono's on wg. Besides my first gateway unit, of course. Thanks a lot, my 1gate fe was always pretty half arsed lol. Liking those vods, Naniwa builds are always really good to steal. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
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LiSAuCE
United States47 Posts
Also, is there a specific timings that are scary? You mentioned hydralisks into mutas, does that happen around 11, 12, 13 min? Or is it just constant scouting? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
As far as hydra into muta goes, they generally try to pressure your third with a few hydras as you are establishing it. This will (almost) always force you into a heavy commitment to colossus, so then they just get a spire but use it for mutas instead of corruptors. The fact that in the fight they might pick off your initial phoenixes is an added bonus for them. It's annoying as shit to scout, the only way to see it coming is to check his rally point and note he's producing a handful of lings rather than additional roach/hydra, while staying at lair tech. | ||
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LiSAuCE
United States47 Posts
On August 01 2013 02:14 Teoita wrote: Yep, gotta use hallucination, observers and/or stargate units alone are much much less reliable. As far as hydra into muta goes, they generally try to pressure your third with a few mutas as you are establishing it. This will (almost) always force you into a heavy commitment to colossus, so then they just get a spire but use it for mutas instead of corruptors. The fact that in the fight they might pick off your initial phoenixes is an added bonus for them. It's annoying as shit to scout, the only way to see it coming is to check his rally point and note he's producing a handful of lings rather than additional roach/hydra, while staying at lair tech. You mean pressure my third with something other than mutas right? lings? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
That said, immortal/storm was always a very strong alternative to colossus/stalker when going up against roach/hydra play. It's very, very strong, but has the glaring weakness of not dealing well with either mutas or swarm hosts. That said, it absolutely wrecks roach/hydra stuff and is more solid against ultra/ling. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 02 2013 00:30 Teoita wrote: First off, huk's builds never make sense so don't try to read much into them. That said, immortal/storm was always a very strong alternative to colossus/stalker when going up against roach/hydra play. It's very, very strong, but has the glaring weakness of not dealing well with either mutas or swarm hosts. That said, it absolutely wrecks roach/hydra stuff and is more solid against ultra/ling. It's also substantially less vulnerable to vipers and can deal with infestor play better, and it has more harass options (yay storm/immortal drops!) But yeah, in general, stalker/colossus is more versatile. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
What the actual fuck. How do you even react to that? Stalker/colossus got shredded and if Dayshi hadn't played terribly I think he'd have won. Like, it makes no sense at all but it kinda does. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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