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On August 03 2013 09:22 Kinon wrote:
What's a good response to a fast 3rd CC, excluding immortal bust?
If you already have a ~7:30 robo bay and scout his 8:00 or faster 3rd CC, you can try to colossus all-in him
+ Show Spoiler +
It's not a hard counter by any means, but it tends to work more often than not for me. Other than the game above, I don't have more pro resources on this reaction, so beware.
The more standard response is to just take a faster third yourself (before adding gateways 4-6) while threatening to move out to scare him a bit.
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On August 03 2013 08:12 Zorkmid wrote:
So after playing maybe 30 games as unranked protoss just messing around, I've realized that I'm a much higher lelve of toss despite playing like 4000 games as zerg, lol. Was a plat Zerg, am a diamond toss.
I am struggling in PvPs though, being unsure about to react to a 4 gate. What is a good safe build in PvP, 2 gate robo into expo? What do I look for to scout the 4 gate? What is a good scout timing in PvP?
The mothership cores overcharge ability provides a good defense against a 4 gate, and has allowed players to play greedier in PvP. For instance you can go 1 gate robo and add more gates or just expand off of 1 gateway. There are several ways to scout now that hallucination doesnt require an upgrade. It's probably the most reliable form of scouting since its impossible to deny. If you get an earlier mothership core you can scout with it (quite effective on a map like newkirk district with easy access to opponents base) This is my favorite form of scouting because I don't like to get an early sentry, and the core can always recall out if it gets in a bad situation. It can be denied however so you really need to be paying attention to it (dont let it die) You can always put on some early aggression (3 stalker rush or 3 gate pressure for example) and try to get scouting info that way.
And finally probe scouting, you can scout after gate or after core, you probably wont see them throw down their tech but can still get some valuable info. For instance whether they took 1 or 2 gasses, if they are saving chronoboost, whether they added a 2nd gateway. If you are super legit you can calculate if they mined a bunch of gas which could mean early tech, or if they are missing a pylon which could mean a proxy. You could even screw with them and steal one of their gas geysers.
What to look for against a 4 gate? A bunch of unspent chronoboost, and one gas taken are some clues.
Oh one more thing, don't forget to scout inside your base and your natural at 13 supply incase of a 2gate proxy or cannon rush.
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Hey guys.
I have a PvP replay that I hope you guys can help me with. It's the fucking void rays man.
http://drop.sc/352796
Any help would be appreciated. I scouted the stargate, had a hunch void rays. But I just choked. Or just couldn't figure out what to do. This is my biggest problem in PvP, and Starcraft in general, cuz my PvP win rate is less than 30%
Thanks.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 03 2013 10:06 TarLaPaN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 08:12 Zorkmid wrote:
So after playing maybe 30 games as unranked protoss just messing around, I've realized that I'm a much higher lelve of toss despite playing like 4000 games as zerg, lol. Was a plat Zerg, am a diamond toss.
I am struggling in PvPs though, being unsure about to react to a 4 gate. What is a good safe build in PvP, 2 gate robo into expo? What do I look for to scout the 4 gate? What is a good scout timing in PvP? The mothership cores overcharge ability provides a good defense against a 4 gate, and has allowed players to play greedier in PvP. For instance you can go 1 gate robo and add more gates or just expand off of 1 gateway. There are several ways to scout now that hallucination doesnt require an upgrade. It's probably the most reliable form of scouting since its impossible to deny. If you get an earlier mothership core you can scout with it (quite effective on a map like newkirk district with easy access to opponents base) This is my favorite form of scouting because I don't like to get an early sentry, and the core can always recall out if it gets in a bad situation. It can be denied however so you really need to be paying attention to it (dont let it die) You can always put on some early aggression (3 stalker rush or 3 gate pressure for example) and try to get scouting info that way. And finally probe scouting, you can scout after gate or after core, you probably wont see them throw down their tech but can still get some valuable info. For instance whether they took 1 or 2 gasses, if they are saving chronoboost, whether they added a 2nd gateway. If you are super legit you can calculate if they mined a bunch of gas which could mean early tech, or if they are missing a pylon which could mean a proxy. You could even screw with them and steal one of their gas geysers. What to look for against a 4 gate? A bunch of unspent chronoboost, and one gas taken are some clues. Oh one more thing, don't forget to scout inside your base and your natural at 13 supply incase of a 2gate proxy or cannon rush.
Most aggression builds like 3 gates or 4 gates these days use 2 gas geysers, but with only 2 probes on each. It's extremely rare to face a 1 gas 4 gate because of how easily it is stopped with a msc and sentries.
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hey iam looking for some feedback on this one base colossus allin in PvP. Ive been using it loads recently at diamond level but iam not sure if its the best way, even though my winrate using it is very good.
Pretty much the quickest robo you can get + 2 gates (similar to old school 3 gate robo)
Followed by collo bay instantly after
Warp in a few sentries and loads of zealots as colo build
mass chrono on the collo
add on a 4th gate as you get close to moving out
with 2 collo and obs and you move out
I lose instantly against any stargate build but other than that i almost always win. PvP has a lot of risks 
So any suggestions or improvements, or have you seen a similar build executed?
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On August 03 2013 11:11 LiSAuCE wrote:Hey guys. I have a PvP replay that I hope you guys can help me with. It's the fucking void rays man. http://drop.sc/352796Any help would be appreciated. I scouted the stargate, had a hunch void rays. But I just choked. Or just couldn't figure out what to do. This is my biggest problem in PvP, and Starcraft in general, cuz my PvP win rate is less than 30% Thanks.
I'm only a Diamond Toss ATM, but I think that I could help.
0:00 - 10:00
Your opening seems fine for the map, a 1 gate FE on Newkirk, although you could do with more scouting, as you see double gas and cannot confirm whether not he's rushing for DTs, meaning you should get some form of detection, such as a robo facility before adding on an extra gate or two. In this case he went Stargate so you were fine, but I believe a DT can arrive at around 6:30 if rushed for, and your robo doesn't complete until 7:20. I personally like to open either two gate stargate or two gate expand into robo, and I suggest you start the MSC as you place the Nexus, or perhaps before. The timing will work out that you will have enough for a photon overcharge when the Nexus completes. You also lost 2 sentries during his poke with 2 stalkers, and while you trade with the stalkers, this is huge! Off of a FE, unless you opened phoenix, sentries are going to be your main source of information through hallucination. Your MSC also wasn't assisting your stalker and two sentries, i think you would have at least saved one, if not both of them if you MSC was at your ramp helping with the defence. Your positioning of the MSC is also huge, as it needs to be placed in between your main and natural not at the edge of your main.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cC3yeBl.png)
(Gosu Drawing)
You also build two cannons at both 8 and 9 minutes, located at your main, these serve a redundant purpose and it would've been much better spent in either two stalkers or two gateways. Keeping 1-3 stalkers in the main mineral line and keeping your army at your natural keep both bases safe from any sort of standard harrass that can happen that early on in the game. In this game though, since he attacks with three oracles, using a photon overcharge in addition to 3 stalkers in your mineral line would've deflected it with minimal to no probe losses and you would be 300 minerals richer. One last thing I noticed is you delayed your Immortal production until about 9:40 minutes into the game. This is also huge, considering how small your army is, you need to have at least 1 immortal, I generally like to get 3 on two bases if I open up robo. Just one Immortal would have helped immensely with the stalker poke at your natural around 10:00 minutes. You also could have dumped some gas into a few more sentries, as from 8:00 minutes forward, you float a lot of gas, and it becomes more relevant as you take your third.
10:00 - 17:56
He plants his third at around 11:40, and way before you ever place yours! You also delay your upgrades immensely and never grab +2 ground weapons! Weapons are more important than amour in PVP! You also push with a very delayed stalker immortal push as he has 4 zealots, 6 stalkers, 2 voids, 2 Oracles, and a nearly complete Nexus for an overcharge, while you have 2 Immortals, 10 stalkers, and 2 sentries. You are floating around 900 gas the time of the attack. If you had added a Templar archive earlier, you could have added 4 archons to buffer this push with, WHICH would be huge in this size of engagement. Storm is also an option against Void Rays, which you eventually try to get. but it only gets effective as the opponent gets air units, and he/she currently has few of them at the moment.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7CEmeGX.png)
(On the defensive his army will have a much larger advantage then your's.)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YsJTz1g.png)
(Larger economy, more production, more upgrades.)
He/she also has more Probes then you and you leave your MSC at home, essentially forcing you to commit against him, esp. if caught out of position. He/she also has another forge and Two more gateways then you, and if you had forgone those cannons, you would have had 4 gateways, possibly more, with that attack, and his armour is almost finished, and while it is not dramatic, it's nice to have. Only push when you have an advantage that can be converted into army strength, such as upgrades, production, your army composition, and positioning. But Starcraft is a complex game, and as a result, you will have advantages and disadvantages in each of these four aspects. Such as superior upgrades and production in a chargelot archon based army, or an army composition and positioning advantage of a Collosus stalker based army trapping an army in a choke.
Essentially this loss was the transition from your opening, worse macro, and your army composition, not netting you any real advantages in that game.
Notes on Army Composition:
Against Skytoss itself, if it's Voidray based I like to go upwards to 8 Templar for massive amounts of storm to blanket his Void Rays, a few Immortals from the early game if they are still alive, and Zealot/Archon. using the archons and storms agaisnt the Void Rays, and trying to keep up on zealot harrass and have them as a ground buffer (upgraded Zealots rip through ground units like no other if they have little to no AOE). The idea here is to secure a larger economy, through harrass or greed, and constnantly trade with his Void Rays, keeping them at a small amount. You could also add on your own Void rays if you want, as Storm/Void will demolish Pure Void. Add on 5 Tempests (4 if you have +2 air attack) if he starts to add on Collosus or Tempests of his own (This number of Tempests will one shot a colossus or Tempest)
Hopefully that helped, if anyone better than me wants to chime in on some of my points and correct me, if need be, I would love that as I want to help him improve, not get worse. :D Also feel free to PM me if you have any more questions or need help with anything else. 
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Are there micro bases arcade games where you can practice blink/FF/pheonix and stuff like that? Versus AI preferably, because even the most popular arcade games have a hard time getting full.
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Darglein's micro trainer is great.
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On August 03 2013 23:25 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote:
Darglein's micro trainer is great.
Just tried it. Did it a bit in WoL, but yeah something like this. Just no phoenix...
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how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix?
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On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix?
I think your best bet would be to play more defensive, expand earlier then your opponent, and try to convert an economical advantage into more phoenix.
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Just a humble opinion here. I play have about 500 wins with terran and about 450 wins with protoss on ladder. I am a humble gold league.
TvP its much harder to pull off a win vs Protoss. I play against the elite Ai in custom games on various ladder maps to practice. I find its very difficult to pull of a win vs Protoss as Terran. However if I pick Protoss vs any race I can win vs elite Ai in custom games no problem. Seriously it takes little thought and effort to win as Protoss in HOTs.
For instance if u do a standard FFE with a few cannons to protect from early agression. Coupled with a Mothership core its very difficult for enemies to do any any signifigant damage. Especially if u have high ground and can position some cannons on the high ground covering the entrance to your base. If enemies manage to get in base the planetary nexus feature helps a ton. Oh and if u make oracles within the early game u can take out workers of the enemy and cause alot of damage.
For me I am trying really hard as a Terran to get into diamond/masters or grandmasters. I am baffled by the Protoss players having a hard time. I think the easiest path to higher leagues would probably be Protoss. So many ways and builds. Four gate, proxy stargate, Robo all in, cannon rush (cheese), FFE ect. Just an opinion but its way harder to win as Terran. Zerg can be very difficult as well considering all the injects and tech u have to maintain. Plus the creep.
User was warned for this post
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On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix?
You have to transition into other tech, usually twilight tech for stalkers and archons to combat the opponent's air. Add a cannon to each mineral line and play defensive. If you continue going phoenix, you'll just get overwhelmed by superior numbers.
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On August 05 2013 09:47 MARZOSIRUS wrote:
Just a humble opinion here. I play have about 500 wins with terran and about 450 wins with protoss on ladder. I am a humble gold league.
TvP its much harder to pull off a win vs Protoss. I play against the elite Ai in custom games on various ladder maps to practice. I find its very difficult to pull of a win vs Protoss as Terran. However if I pick Protoss vs any race I can win vs elite Ai in custom games no problem. Seriously it takes little thought and effort to win as Protoss in HOTs.
For instance if u do a standard FFE with a few cannons to protect from early agression. Coupled with a Mothership core its very difficult for enemies to do any any signifigant damage. Especially if u have high ground and can position some cannons on the high ground covering the entrance to your base. If enemies manage to get in base the planetary nexus feature helps a ton. Oh and if u make oracles within the early game u can take out workers of the enemy and cause alot of damage.
For me I am trying really hard as a Terran to get into diamond/masters or grandmasters. I am baffled by the Protoss players having a hard time. I think the easiest path to higher leagues would probably be Protoss. So many ways and builds. Four gate, proxy stargate, Robo all in, cannon rush (cheese), FFE ect. Just an opinion but its way harder to win as Terran. Zerg can be very difficult as well considering all the injects and tech u have to maintain. Plus the creep.
...so....what do you need help with as a protoss buddy?....You seem to just be a QQer....
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Austria24417 Posts
One post. Not a great way to start
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Hi guys ! I m currently playing macro games exclusively. But still i'd like to know some of ur best all ins especially in PvP (exept 4 gates, Photon rush, 2 gate proxy ofc) for my futur clan wars. I heard about the proxy stargate which i think could work. But do u have any others on 1 base?
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On August 05 2013 17:08 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 09:47 MARZOSIRUS wrote:
For me I am trying really hard as a Terran to get into diamond/masters or grandmasters. I am baffled by the Protoss players having a hard time. I think the easiest path to higher leagues would probably be Protoss. So many ways and builds. Four gate, proxy stargate, Robo all in, cannon rush (cheese), FFE ect. Just an opinion but its way harder to win as Terran. Zerg can be very difficult as well considering all the injects and tech u have to maintain. Plus the creep. I am trying really hard as a Protoss to get into Grandmaster league. Given that my PvT is at 30% in the Masters league, I am baffled by the Terran players having a hard time. I think the easiest path to higher leagues would probably be Terran. So many ways and builds. 6 Rax, proxy Mines, 111 all-in, Planetary Fortress rush (cheese), 14 CC etc. It's just my opinion, but it's way harder to win as Protoss. Zerg can be very difficult as well considering all the injects and tech that you have to maintain, plus the creep. + Show Spoiler +
This. 6 rax and planetray rush are very strong and should be looked at by Mr. Kim.
+ Show Spoiler +My hearts hurts, when i think about it. My best allin is the 140 supply scv pull before storm.
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Austria24417 Posts
Didn't MKP do some kind of crazy pure marine without stim all in against CJherO in that one MLG tournament thing? Wonder if that's still viable. If yes then I predict that Maru tries it against Rain
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Couple of questions here (new to protoss)
1. When playing two base all-ins or pressure builds, how many probes you make? If you are going to expand, when do you start making additional probes?
2. When zerg goes for a quick third before getting gas, what kind of composition does he usually use to defend relatively early protoss aggression?
I've been pondering this second question when I saw Nightend play against zerg on neo planet and upon scouting his quick third he went +2 blink stalker with sentries and just rolled him. I'm guessing blink stalkers are just good against every low tier zerg unit in general to justify this blind move?
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EPT
