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United States4883 Posts
On August 05 2013 22:43 herMan wrote:
Couple of questions here (new to protoss)
1. When playing two base all-ins or pressure builds, how many probes you make? If you are going to expand, when do you start making additional probes?
2. When zerg goes for a quick third before getting gas, what kind of composition does he usually use to defend relatively early protoss aggression?
I've been pondering this second question when I saw Nightend play against zerg on neo planet and upon scouting his quick third he went +2 blink stalker with sentries and just rolled him. I'm guessing blink stalkers are just good against every low tier zerg unit in general to justify this blind move?
1. On July 17 2013 19:53 Teoita wrote:
If you're 2basing you should have 38 probes on minerals, 12 on gas and one for proxy pylons.
Also, you want to resume probe production as soon as you decide pressure is over, it's pretty simple. If you're going to expand early anyway, you want to continue making probes constantly so you can just transfer them over.
2. When zerg delays gas, the only real choices they have for defending pressure are zerglings, banelings, and roaches. Since banelings are pretty much useless against FF and protoss units in general, that means mostly just roach/ling, which fairly upgraded gateway units (plus a few immortals) shit on. That being said, though, +2 blink stalker all-ins are pretty outdated [and pretty bad] and shouldn't kill a good zerg player unless you somehow catch them by surprise. All-ins such as the 2-2-2, sentry/immortal allin, and zealot/immortal all-ins are far more powerful anyway.
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Italy12246 Posts
Not entirely correct, in HotS zergs tend to use hyda/ling and skip or not invest as heavily in roaches, which is what makes builds like the 222 viable. That said, you can use most of the older bulds still, but it's generally accepted that the strongest timings are either 222 or soultrain.
If you are just pressuring a Z without allining (say you are doing 4gate zealot or something along those lines) you should actually produce probes nonstop imo. If you dont make probes behind your pressure you will end up with late tech and econ and get rolled anyway (see Rain vs Hyvaa on that OSL beach map for a good example).
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Is anyone having success two basing in PvP? I'm ~ 1800 masters on eu and losing just about everytime I try to hit a timing
I open with state's 1 expand just about everygame, and feel like if I get a faster nexus and take no damage I should be able to all in ftw. But in hots the combination of hallucination scout + msc = my timings get owned
BTW the all ins I go for after expand are col+stalker (if they open say 2gate dt-expand) or charge/archon(if they open say 2gate sg expand). I usually try to play the long game in all mus, so it's possible my timings just suck, so curious if ya'll doing it well 
thanks in advance
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On August 05 2013 07:30 Tannex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix? I think your best bet would be to play more defensive, expand earlier then your opponent, and try to convert an economical advantage into more phoenix.
On August 05 2013 11:10 aznheat80 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix? You have to transition into other tech, usually twilight tech for stalkers and archons to combat the opponent's air. Add a cannon to each mineral line and play defensive. If you continue going phoenix, you'll just get overwhelmed by superior numbers.
which one's better, an economical advantage or a tech advantage
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On August 06 2013 06:07 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 07:30 Tannex wrote:On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix? I think your best bet would be to play more defensive, expand earlier then your opponent, and try to convert an economical advantage into more phoenix. Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 11:10 aznheat80 wrote:On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix? You have to transition into other tech, usually twilight tech for stalkers and archons to combat the opponent's air. Add a cannon to each mineral line and play defensive. If you continue going phoenix, you'll just get overwhelmed by superior numbers. which one's better, an economical advantage or a tech advantage
Scrap what I posted earlier, a tech advantage, possibly through archons, would actually be the better choice.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 06 2013 04:02 ant885 wrote:Is anyone having success two basing in PvP? I'm ~ 1800 masters on eu and losing just about everytime I try to hit a timing I open with state's 1 expand just about everygame, and feel like if I get a faster nexus and take no damage I should be able to all in ftw. But in hots the combination of hallucination scout + msc = my timings get owned BTW the all ins I go for after expand are col+stalker (if they open say 2gate dt-expand) or charge/archon(if they open say 2gate sg expand). I usually try to play the long game in all mus, so it's possible my timings just suck, so curious if ya'll doing it well thanks in advance
Dude, look at Rain vs. Dear from PL! LINK!
Even though Rain lost this game, he did a really cool delayed FE into 2-base timing attack! It's honestly a miracle Dear survived and didn't lose the nexus.
In my opinion, there aren't really good PvP timings unless you happen to have the tech advantage and you realize you can push that advantage (ex: you're heading toward immortal/chargelot/archon, you can attack your opponent when they only have 2 colossus).
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United States7483 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:12 Tannex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:07 b_unnies wrote:On August 05 2013 07:30 Tannex wrote:On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix? I think your best bet would be to play more defensive, expand earlier then your opponent, and try to convert an economical advantage into more phoenix. On August 05 2013 11:10 aznheat80 wrote:On August 05 2013 06:53 b_unnies wrote:
how do you play phoenix vs phoenix if you're behind on phoenix? You have to transition into other tech, usually twilight tech for stalkers and archons to combat the opponent's air. Add a cannon to each mineral line and play defensive. If you continue going phoenix, you'll just get overwhelmed by superior numbers. which one's better, an economical advantage or a tech advantage Scrap what I posted earlier, a tech advantage, possibly through archons, would actually be the better choice.
It honestly depends most of all on how far behind you are in phoenix. If you're only down a couple you should still probably keep going phoenix, relying on msc, cannons or stalker warp ins at home to keep him from being aggressive. If you're down more than 4 or behind a stargate and down, you'll need to figure out a tech swap fast and hope he doesn't attack: getting caught during a tech swap in PvP phoenix wars is almost always GG right then and there.
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I'm currently having a lot of trouble in surviving PvZ midgame (on 3 bases). Basically this is what happens nearly every game
I start phoenixes -> I lose to any roach/hydra push even if i try to get colossi as fast as i can.
I start robo -> I lose to mutalisks.
I know that my macro isn't perfect but it's as good as my opponents so there must be something else.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 06 2013 09:00 KingAlphard wrote:
I'm currently having a lot of trouble in surviving PvZ midgame (on 3 bases). Basically this is what happens nearly every game
I start phoenixes -> I lose to any roach/hydra push even if i try to get colossi as fast as i can.
I start robo -> I lose to mutalisks.
I know that my macro isn't perfect but it's as good as my opponents so there must be something else.
It would help to have a replay, but generally the problem in these cases is bad forcefields and/or army positioning. And some maps (like Star Station), you're just going to die while trying to take a 3rd no matter what you do. Post a replay and I'll analyze it for you.
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On August 06 2013 06:16 SC2John wrote:Dude, look at Rain vs. Dear from PL! LINK!Even though Rain lost this game, he did a really cool delayed FE into 2-base timing attack! It's honestly a miracle Dear survived and didn't lose the nexus. In my opinion, there aren't really good PvP timings unless you happen to have the tech advantage and you realize you can push that advantage (ex: you're heading toward immortal/chargelot/archon, you can attack your opponent when they only have 2 colossus).
Hmm, so in wings it felt like if you opened with a reasonably faster nexus and took no damage, you could almost guarantee a win with just a 2base timings (assuming equal play on by both players from that point on)
In hots, do you think the better way to press an early advantage is to just play greedier - ie teching/probing aggressively//relatively fast third etc? I often find myself ahead with this opening if they open say gateway aggression into expand or dt/sg expand and what not.
I'm a bit out of the PvP loop since it was my best MU, but I've been getting smacked around lately 
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^ I think 2 base timings are a bit of a gamble in PvP. Maybe if everything looks clearly in your favor, but your opponent can scout your push. What I love to do when I see my opponent isn't getting cannons with a hallucination phoenix is to add a dark shrine and drop dts. Even 1 single cannon per mineral line isn't enough, 3 dts can easily take down a cannon and after that you will either kill probes or force him to run away for long enough that you will get an edge anyway. If he sends his entire army to defend when you warp in units in his main, force field his ramp and take down his natural. Whether you go for something like this or not (and he could still scout this move with a hallucinated phoenix and respond properly anyway, which is much better than forcing yourself into an all in that might fail imo), you should probably take a third.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 06 2013 10:43 ant885 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:16 SC2John wrote:On August 06 2013 04:02 ant885 wrote:
thanks in advance Dude, look at Rain vs. Dear from PL! LINK!Even though Rain lost this game, he did a really cool delayed FE into 2-base timing attack! It's honestly a miracle Dear survived and didn't lose the nexus. In my opinion, there aren't really good PvP timings unless you happen to have the tech advantage and you realize you can push that advantage (ex: you're heading toward immortal/chargelot/archon, you can attack your opponent when they only have 2 colossus). Hmm, so in wings it felt like if you opened with a reasonably faster nexus and took no damage, you could almost guarantee a win with just a 2base timings (assuming equal play on by both players from that point on) In hots, do you think the better way to press an early advantage is to just play greedier - ie teching/probing aggressively//relatively fast third etc? I often find myself ahead with this opening if they open say gateway aggression into expand or dt/sg expand and what not. I'm a bit out of the PvP loop since it was my best MU, but I've been getting smacked around lately
I feel like, in addition to MsC, things like warp prisms, DTs, and oracles force you to leave some kind of defense back at home, which not only can weaken your push, but generally slows it down (i.e. 2 cannons = 2 gateways). This is why, perhaps, if you plan on doing a 2-base attack, you should go ahead and prepare for taking a 3rd base if your aggression doesn't outright kill him (which is normal). I've been playing with a DT expand into immortal/chargelot/archon, adding up to 6 gateways, and pushing out ~10:00. In some cases, this push will outright kill my opponent; in others, I simply try to get some favourable trades while taking a faster 3rd.
So...to answer your question in kind of a roundabout way: the best way to press your advantage with an earlier natural is to take an earlier 3rd. You don't HAVE to attack, but I think it gives you a stronger advantage because you can ENSURE that your nexus timing is a lot earlier than your opponent's.
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So i haven't been playing much toss lately and last thing i remember was that the metagame about a month ago was immortal/chargelot/ archon in korea. Now in pro games and streams i am seeing collosus a lot and people doing well with it. so i have a few questions:
1. what is the natural progression(or optimal composition) of things in pvp when both players play standard, say they both 1 gate fe.
2.when is it worth it to go tempest vs colossi?
3. when is it not worth it to go tempest vs colossi?
4. how many immortals are good to have now?
5. If i go colossi and my opponent goes tempests, what should i transition to?
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Italy12246 Posts
1) Both Colo and heavy gateway stuff are viable really. The general progression is that the player with the more mobile army can put more pressure on and take a faster third, while the guy going colossus has to be more defensive and try to hit a timing before any tech switches. Generally, Colossi are more of a timing attack unit for that reason. I think the best pvp maxed army is some combination of archon/tempest, but im not sure yet.
2/3) Go for tempests if he's taking a third. Your general progression when playing the gateway style should be like 6gates>take third>8gates>move out, try to harass and put pressure on>tech to tempest. If he's 2basing just invest into a zealot/archon/immortal army and try to engage in the open field.
4/5) I'm not sure on either of these yet.
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Sorry if it's in the wrong thread but I wasn't sure where to ask this.
I was wondering why no Zerg is going for the 12 minutes roach max anymore? Protoss are more and more greedy, taking their third at around 7-8mins... Is there a reason we don't see it anymore? Every time I see a Protoss taking an early third I just feel like it's a coin flip, the Zerg can really punish it and even finish the game if they commit to mass unit. Am I wrong or missing something?
I was watching Artosis play the other day on stream and he was going for a 7 min third into 3 stargates phoenixes without really knowing what the zerg was doing after scouting the third. Of course he scouted the tech with his 4 first poenixes but I felt like he would just straight lose against a roach all in.
Thanks.
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The reason you don't see the roach max anymore is that people know how to defend against it and it's sort of allin for the zerg. that, and also the prevalence of stargate(scout and make those buffed void rays), nexus cannon, and immortal sentry make it easier to crush. I really think the micro that the protoss gained during the roach max era and new void rays discouraged zergs from doing this.
in regards to artosis's(myunsick's or however he spells it) build takes a gamble that the zerg reacts in the following way: scouts 1 stargate, sees pheonix, builds a reasonable amount of hydras, techs hard and puts his resources into non units. if the zerg goes for a 3base hydra allin(i am not 100% sure on this) or roach allin then the build is not good enough. i just don't think there are enough lifts. it's a metagame build
ps ty teoita
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How do you deal with mech on a map like akilon wastes? basically he just turtled up and kept dropping widow mines/hellbats as he took his half of the map and I took mine. Could never attack head on because he had a million tanks and planetary fortresses. Prism play was also impossible since he had a small fleet of vikings roaming around. Eventually he just slowly pushed with his tanks/hellbats/vikings and I didn't really know how to respond. (low masters)
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On August 07 2013 10:25 VayneAuthority wrote:
How do you deal with mech on a map like akilon wastes? basically he just turtled up and kept dropping widow mines/hellbats as he took his half of the map and I took mine. Could never attack head on because he had a million tanks and planetary fortresses. Prism play was also impossible since he had a small fleet of vikings roaming around. Eventually he just slowly pushed with his tanks/hellbats/vikings and I didn't really know how to respond. (low masters)
You'd have to give the replay but have you tried mixing in at least a few Tempests, I find they work wonders vs Mech.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 07 2013 10:25 VayneAuthority wrote:
How do you deal with mech on a map like akilon wastes? basically he just turtled up and kept dropping widow mines/hellbats as he took his half of the map and I took mine. Could never attack head on because he had a million tanks and planetary fortresses. Prism play was also impossible since he had a small fleet of vikings roaming around. Eventually he just slowly pushed with his tanks/hellbats/vikings and I didn't really know how to respond. (low masters)
Generally speaking, if you've been doing a decent job preventing the harass damage from being excessive and been expanding and harassing yourself, you can just go into mass tempest with a decent amount of high templar with storm. Storm vikings, keep obs around to stop ghosts, and your tempest will just slaughter everything else from long range no problem. Get up a good gateway count and a bank and as soon as the ground army is dying you can just mass zealot warp in and clean house. Mech can't really deal with tempest/templar at all. A few oracles for revelation makes it extremely powerful, and allows you to push regardless of how many planetaries there are.
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EPT
