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Sanya12364 Posts
On October 23 2011 02:39 ZeaL. wrote:
Lack of information is effectively the same as misinformation as far as manipulation goes. One party has a deficit of information while the other has more and will use it to their advantage. If your argument is that a lack of information is the fault of the consumer and that its the consumer's job to be educated before making any purchase that is something we can discuss.
Excellent. Discuss.
Lack of information cannot be the same as misinformation. Misinformation is the abuse of trust and the feeding of information by the manipulator to fill in an information void.
On October 23 2011 02:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:
You have no lesson to give in terms of criticizing someone's supposed or real ideological blindness, TanGeng. You treated me an insensitive monster and kept repeating I was a brainwashed mad communist a couple of month ago without bothering to understand what I was even saying.
Stop harassing me. I'd like to write in this forum without having my TanGeng moment every other post. I'm getting fed up with it. You please stop. Thanks.
Does that rant make up for posting piss-poor evidence for your argument???
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Too many harmless marijuana users are being arrested.
Lack of paternal role model for African Americans.
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On October 23 2011 02:54 Tien wrote:
Too many harmless marijuana users are being arrested.
Lack of paternal role model for African Americans.
And why is there a lack of paternal role models for African Americans?
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Too many African Americans fathering too many kids with different women.
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On October 23 2011 03:01 Tien wrote:
Too many African Americans fathering too many kids with different women.
??? wtf man. seriously?
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Just before someone calls Tien racist imma go try to find the statics that back that up which i know exist, if i remember right it's 1 in 9 black men will spend time in prison in the US, and at the same time a black male is more likely to have an interracial marriage then a black female. There are also statics dealing with height and promiscuity along with race and promiscuity, ie that 2.4 partners in a life time dealiee.
It mostly has to do with things like 3 strike laws, in which 2 medium sized crimes you commit one tiny crime you can get sent in to life in prison, i believe there were or still are cases of like a man being sent to life in prison for stealing 1 loaf of bread, ofc he did do much bigger crimes before that but he served his time for those crimes already.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2002/02/26/us-incarceration-rates-reveal-striking-racial-disparities
Blacks and Hispanics make up 62 percent of the incarcerated population, though comprising only 25 percent of the national population;
Between ten and fifteen percent of black men are incarcerated in twelve states (Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Texas, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming);
Black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than the rates of white women in fifteen states (Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming); and
Hispanic youth are incarcerated at rates seven to seventeen times greater than those of whites in Connecticut, Hawaii, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire, while the incarceration rate for black youth is between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of whites in Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Massachusetts, Montana, and New Jersey.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022803016.html
The growth in prison population is largely because of tougher state and federal sentencing imposed since the mid-1980s. Minorities have been particularly affected: One in nine black men ages 20 to 34 is behind bars. For black women ages 35 to 39, the figure is one in 100, compared with one in 355 for white women in the same age group.
In addition, when it comes to preventing repeat offenses by nonviolent criminals -- who make up about half of the incarcerated population -- less-expensive punishments such as community supervision, electronic monitoring and mandatory drug counseling might prove as much or more effective than jail.
i'll try to find numbers for going to state and prison and repeat offenses while avoiding all the articles that start with teh words new slavery, but basically the poor and minorities make up the prison system esp black and Hispanic.
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On October 23 2011 02:51 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:39 ZeaL. wrote:
Lack of information is effectively the same as misinformation as far as manipulation goes. One party has a deficit of information while the other has more and will use it to their advantage. If your argument is that a lack of information is the fault of the consumer and that its the consumer's job to be educated before making any purchase that is something we can discuss. Excellent. Discuss. Lack of information cannot be the same as misinformation. Misinformation is the abuse of trust and the feeding of information by the manipulator to fill in an information void.
Lets say two guys are cheating on their girlfriends. One guy is very meticulous about how he does it and never arouses any suspicion that he has altered his lifestyle in any way, the other guy lies about where he was the other night. Either way, the guys are abusing the trust of their girlfriends.
From a consumer standpoint, take the Pinto. Average consumer looks at the car and assumes that it won't explode when rear-ended. The company makes no effort to disclose the fact that it will catch on fire when rear-ended. Does it matter to the consumer purchasing the car whether or not a sales rep lies and says "the risk of a fire due to a rear-end accident is minimal"?
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Get ready for something about one of these:
1) The government sponsored community reinvestment act made the banks do it.
2) Fannie and Freddie incentivized giving out loans
3) Its the Fed's fault in some way.
The FED is supposed to regulate banks. Problem is, almost 3 out of 4 FED directors ARE bankers. The banks are pretty close to regulating themselves, which is the goal of deregulation.
So the regulation in place is a joke.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On October 23 2011 03:04 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:01 Tien wrote:
Too many African Americans fathering too many kids with different women. ??? wtf man. seriously?
Over 65% of African American kids are raised in single parent households.
African American absentee fathers need to take most of the responsibility for the huge incarceration rate of African Americans.
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On October 23 2011 03:05 semantics wrote:
Just before someone calls Tien racist imma go try to find the statics that back that up which i know exist, if i remember right it's 1 in 9 black men will spend time in prison in the US
This is the only point that matters and exactly the point I wanted to make. The fact that more blacks are locked up and that too many black children grow up without a father leaves only two points where you can stand. Either you make it about race, "blacks do this and that because that's the way they are", which makes you a racist moron or you accept the fact that there are socio-economic reasons that influence a whole lot what people do and why they do it. (This leads to the point, that not everything lies in the sphere of influence within people, and that this wild-west cowboy style everybody-for-himself is stupid. Which is the point I wanted to make.)
Thank you Tien for making it short and proving my point.
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On October 23 2011 03:12 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:04 caradoc wrote:On October 23 2011 03:01 Tien wrote:
Too many African Americans fathering too many kids with different women. ??? wtf man. seriously? Over 65% of African American kids are raised in single parent households. African American absentee fathers need to take most of the responsibility for the huge incarceration rate of African Americans.
Living in an area with a dense African American population I can attest to the fact that a majority of babies are born to single mothers, at least in this area.
On October 23 2011 03:06 Traeon wrote:Show nested quote +Get ready for something about one of these:
1) The government sponsored community reinvestment act made the banks do it.
2) Fannie and Freddie incentivized giving out loans
3) Its the Fed's fault in some way. The FED is supposed to regulate banks. Problem is, almost 3 out of 4 FED directors ARE bankers. The banks are pretty close to regulating themselves, which is the goal of deregulation. So the regulation in place is a joke.
I don't disagree. I think Mr. ElemBlues would consider it differently however.
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On October 23 2011 03:12 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:04 caradoc wrote:On October 23 2011 03:01 Tien wrote:
Too many African Americans fathering too many kids with different women. ??? wtf man. seriously? Over 65% of African American kids are raised in single parent households. African American absentee fathers need to take some responsibility for the huge incarceration rate of African Americans.
My problem isn't with statistics, its with the pairing of what Tien sees as a social issue, with an ethnic group, with responsibility placed on individuals with no discussion of why the pattern exists or reference to any external social factors--- only referencing notions of race.
you don't think institutional racism which directly influences poverty, crime, and incarceration, an overzealous penal system, and the general failure of society to provide a more robust social fabric has anything to do with it? You're blaming individuals of a particular ethnic group as individual fathers for a social pattern?
The only logical implication of your assertion is that something in the genetics of the people in question is responsible for them being absent parents, and thus creating a social problem. This is just scapegoating. period. This logic is more suited to a fascist state.
Besides, lots of people grow up in environments that do not fit the stereotype of what a 'normal' household is.
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On October 23 2011 03:06 Traeon wrote:Show nested quote +Get ready for something about one of these:
1) The government sponsored community reinvestment act made the banks do it.
2) Fannie and Freddie incentivized giving out loans
3) Its the Fed's fault in some way. The FED is supposed to regulate banks. Problem is, almost 3 out of 4 FED directors ARE bankers. The banks are pretty close to regulating themselves, which is the goal of deregulation. So the regulation in place is a joke.
But I guess bankers are the ones that know best about how banks work and their dirty tricks and secrets, so those guys should theoretically be the ones with the most qualifications for the job. This is a pretty evil problem, how to get the best person for such a job and at the same time someone who can be trusted. Reminds me a bit of nuclear power engineers working for an energy provider and then changing jobs to a position in the government for overseeing nuclear power regulations.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On October 23 2011 03:15 BlackFlag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:05 semantics wrote:
Just before someone calls Tien racist imma go try to find the statics that back that up which i know exist, if i remember right it's 1 in 9 black men will spend time in prison in the US This is the only point that matters and exactly the point I wanted to make. The fact that more blacks are locked up and that too many black children grow up without a father leaves only two points where you can stand. Either you make it about race, "blacks do this and that because that's the way they are", which makes you a racist moron or you accept the fact that there are socio-economic reasons that influence a whole lot what people do and why they do it. (This leads to the point, that not everything lies in the sphere of influence within people, and that this wild-west cowboy style everybody-for-himself is stupid. Which is the point I wanted to make.) Thank you Tien for making it short and proving my point.
So if Obama came here and said it would you say the same thing?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/15cnd-obama.html
Socio-economic reasons aren't the only reasons why 65% of African American kids are raised under single parent homes.
You can blame whatever external force (overzealous police, poverty, incarceration rate) you want. Change starts with taking personal responsibility.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On October 23 2011 03:06 Traeon wrote:Show nested quote +Get ready for something about one of these:
1) The government sponsored community reinvestment act made the banks do it.
2) Fannie and Freddie incentivized giving out loans
3) Its the Fed's fault in some way. The FED is supposed to regulate banks. Problem is, almost 3 out of 4 FED directors ARE bankers. The banks are pretty close to regulating themselves, which is the goal of deregulation. So the regulation in place is a joke.
There are potentially many cases of fraud and manipulation in the run-up to the housing bubble. Resolving fraud involves criminal investigations, civil suits, and court case which was awfully few in number because of the woeful DoJ. DoJ's inactivity on financial fraud is the most damaging outcome of the housing bubble collapse. A close second is the bailout of the financial houses. Everything else is pretty small in comparison.
In the run-up:
Community Reinvestment Act is small and not a huge impact.
Fannie and Freddie was more of moral hazard on their balance sheet side because of their implicit guarantees by the Federal government. The Federal government subsequently assume the debt affirming the moral hazard.
The Fed's interest rate targeting is the only big deal of the three.
More or less regulations isn't the problem. The problem is a lack of aligned interest between the regulators and the customers of the regulated companies. Public complacency and faith in regulatory bodies allowed things to get as bad as they did.
On October 23 2011 03:23 Ropid wrote:
But I guess bankers are the ones that know best about how banks work and their dirty tricks and secrets, so those guys should theoretically be the ones with the most qualifications for the job. This is a pretty evil problem, how to get the best person for such a job and at the same time someone who can be trusted. Reminds me a bit of nuclear power engineers working for an energy provider and then changing jobs to a position in the government for overseeing nuclear power regulations.
Going the other way, the nuclear power engineers that came out of government regulatory agencies are the best candidates to find loopholes and exceptions in the regulations that they designed and/or enforced.
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On October 23 2011 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:
What's really hilarious is that you believe that a quarter of the people in jail in the world are in America. You really trust those figures?
It's hilarious that you think North Korea and China, alone or combined, have less people locked up in some way than America.
Here's a 2009 report from the International Centre for Prison Studies:
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/downloads/wppl-8th_41.pdf
World prison population: 9,800,000
US prison population: 2,293,000
That's 23%. So you're right, it's not a quarter. What a hilarious claim.
China has 1,565,000 in prison. Granted, in China there's an additional 850,000 held in "administrative detention". If you count those as being in prison, China has more prisoners than the US. There are no figures available for North Korea.
Total amount is not very interesting, though. What matters is the number of prisoners compared to the total population. In China, that's 184 prisoners per 100k people (or 119 not counting the "administrative detention").
In the US, it's 756 prisoners per 100k people. That's higher than any other country in the world.
Some other countries, for comparison:
Canada: 116
Brazil: 227
Sweden: 74
Italy: 92
England/Wales: 153
Germany: 89
France: 96
Saudi Arabia: 132
But no, I'm sure the US penal system is just fine. No problems there at all.
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On October 23 2011 01:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Or, you consider the fact that a quarter of people in jail in the world are in jail in America. That's more than a fucking % of your people in jail. And now, consider the fact that your private prison industry (have to be stupid, yeah, to give prisons to private interests) spends 400 millions dollars lobbying every year so that senators keep voting moire and more and more repressing laws.
The harsh laws putting people in prison in America is a result of voters demanding harder sentences, and politicians not wanting to be seen as soft on crime. Corporations have very little to do with it.
France is far from being perfect, but private companies are regulated and have much less freedom than in America. Our obesity rate is 9%, three times less than yours, our population in jail is 0,01%, ten times less than yours, we didn't go in Irak because we knew it was pointless etc etc...
A friend of mine tried to run a bar in France, but gave up after a while. His reason was entrepreneur-hostile tax laws making it impossible to survive.
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On October 23 2011 02:51 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:39 ZeaL. wrote:
Lack of information is effectively the same as misinformation as far as manipulation goes. One party has a deficit of information while the other has more and will use it to their advantage. If your argument is that a lack of information is the fault of the consumer and that its the consumer's job to be educated before making any purchase that is something we can discuss. Excellent. Discuss. Lack of information cannot be the same as misinformation. Misinformation is the abuse of trust and the feeding of information by the manipulator to fill in an information void. Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:
You have no lesson to give in terms of criticizing someone's supposed or real ideological blindness, TanGeng. You treated me an insensitive monster and kept repeating I was a brainwashed mad communist a couple of month ago without bothering to understand what I was even saying.
Stop harassing me. I'd like to write in this forum without having my TanGeng moment every other post. I'm getting fed up with it. You please stop. Thanks. Does that rant make up for posting piss-poor evidence for your argument???
I just ask you to stop harassing me. Ignore my posts, I will ignore yours. I enjoy discussing with most people here, but not with you. And if you can't restrain yourself, don't start your patronizing bullshit about something you did yourself the first time we ever had a "discussion". Simple as that.
I don't know what "piss poor" argument you are talking about.
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On October 23 2011 04:00 Serthius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Or, you consider the fact that a quarter of people in jail in the world are in jail in America. That's more than a fucking % of your people in jail. And now, consider the fact that your private prison industry (have to be stupid, yeah, to give prisons to private interests) spends 400 millions dollars lobbying every year so that senators keep voting moire and more and more repressing laws.
The harsh laws putting people in prison in America is a result of voters demanding harder sentences, and politicians not wanting to be seen as soft on crime. Corporations have very little to do with it. Show nested quote +
France is far from being perfect, but private companies are regulated and have much less freedom than in America. Our obesity rate is 9%, three times less than yours, our population in jail is 0,01%, ten times less than yours, we didn't go in Irak because we knew it was pointless etc etc...
A friend of mine tried to run a bar in France, but gave up after a while. His reason was entrepreneur-hostile tax laws making it impossible to survive.
Surely the fact that private corporations run prisons and spend half a billion dollar every year in lobbying has nothing to do with the fact that 2 300 000 Americans are in jail right now. Compare to 60 000 in France.
If it was impossible to be an entrepreneur in France, we wouldn't have an economy anymore. Apparently, we are still doing fine.
Some stuff are seriously fucked up in France, but our tradition of having a strong State protecting public interest is really one of the great thing about this country. Taxes have nothing to do with it, that's just another problem.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On October 23 2011 04:00 Serthius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Or, you consider the fact that a quarter of people in jail in the world are in jail in America. That's more than a fucking % of your people in jail. And now, consider the fact that your private prison industry (have to be stupid, yeah, to give prisons to private interests) spends 400 millions dollars lobbying every year so that senators keep voting moire and more and more repressing laws.
The harsh laws putting people in prison in America is a result of voters demanding harder sentences, and politicians not wanting to be seen as soft on crime. Corporations have very little to do with it.
Police, prosecutors, and prisons all have a strong voice in the number and types of crimes being prosecuted and the length of prison terms. Politicians only cater to the moneyed interests. Public can't see all the costs while perceiving that a lot is being done to keep them safe.
Certain companies that use prison labor will also favor having a large prison population to draw from.
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EPT
