On October 23 2011 03:05 semantics wrote: Just before someone calls Tien racist imma go try to find the statics that back that up which i know exist, if i remember right it's 1 in 9 black men will spend time in prison in the US
This is the only point that matters and exactly the point I wanted to make. The fact that more blacks are locked up and that too many black children grow up without a father leaves only two points where you can stand. Either you make it about race, "blacks do this and that because that's the way they are", which makes you a racist moron or you accept the fact that there are socio-economic reasons that influence a whole lot what people do and why they do it. (This leads to the point, that not everything lies in the sphere of influence within people, and that this wild-west cowboy style everybody-for-himself is stupid. Which is the point I wanted to make.)
Thank you Tien for making it short and proving my point.
There are no "two points" where you can stand. Developmental psychologists are in unanimous agreement that behavior of people comes from both nature and nurture. Anybody that outright dismisses genetics or environment is just plain wrong because we know it's a combination of the two. It's far more ignorant to dismiss genetics from the conversation than to bring genetics into the conversation.
That does not make sense in the context: You might be able to find genes related to certain types of behaviour, but it is not proof that said behaviour will cause crime. At the same time, the genes might have certain triggers, but they will have to be environmental to a very large extend. The matter of the fact is: You can change environment, but not the genes. Therefore it makes a lot more sense to blame environment and not the genes.
It doesn't make sense to just blame whatever you can change and ignore whatever you can't. When we're talking about throwing billions of dollars at federal programs it should be extremely important to understand all of the causes of problems so you can know how effective a solution may be.
Read what I wrote again: Inheritance is not an excuse for breaking the law. The culture/environment in the areas are. Putting blame on genes is only racism if the genes are specific to a race. But wasting time on investigating genes and crimes is truely a waste. Genes are related to actions, not to where or if those actions are exercised...
If unemployment levels drop to 4%, do you think anything would change in the ghetto? If police became extremely lenient on African Americans, would anything change?
No one knows how to solve the issues of African American ghettos
But I do know that if successful African Americans start doing their own "occupy ghetto" movements to help raise destitute poor single parented African American kids, the crime rate of African Americans would drop.
And that's what these kids in the ghettos need the most, they need help from their own communities and people. They need fathers that have gone to college. They need successful role models to shape their lives. Rappers and pro athletes aren't.
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
The absolute most expensive universities might go that high for a 4 year degree, but at the other end of the spectrum, someone who goes to a community college for 2 years, then a public university for another 2, could be looking at as little as $30k.
But keep in mind, you're only paying full price if you don't qualify for financial aid, which at the most expensive universities, quite a few people do. My personal figures are (including room and board for all 4 years) about $80k total for a 4 year degree from Princeton. Room and board alone probably makes up half of that, so by the time you get to what I'm really paying to be educated, it seems reasonable, if not what you'd call cheap.
On October 23 2011 09:37 Tien wrote: If unemployment levels drop to 4%, do you think anything would change in the ghetto? If police became extremely lenient on African Americans, would anything change?
No one knows how to solve the issues of African American ghettos
But I do know that if successful African Americans start doing their own "occupy ghetto" movements to help raise destitute poor single parented African American kids, the crime rate of African Americans would drop.
And that's what these kids in the ghettos need the most, they need help from their own communities and people. They need fathers that have gone to college. They need successful role models to shape their lives. Rappers and pro athletes aren't.
User was temp banned for this post.
This ban is rather odd... The reason doesn't shed much light on it either.
Isn't he just saying that two parent homes and better role models would improve the ghettos? I'm trying to find the offensive statement here.
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
The absolute most expensive universities might go that high for a 4 year degree, but at the other end of the spectrum, someone who goes to a community college for 2 years, then a public university for another 2, could be looking at as little as $30k.
But keep in mind, you're only paying full price if you don't qualify for financial aid, which at the most expensive universities, quite a few people do. My personal figures are (including room and board for all 4 years) about $80k total for a 4 year degree from Princeton. Room and board alone probably makes up half of that, so by the time you get to what I'm really paying to be educated, it seems reasonable, if not what you'd call cheap.
Princeton is a great University, graduating from there should guarantee you a good job mate , Harvard is ridiculously overpriced, but what methods are there for paying for University degrees?
In Australia if you have permanent residency or are a citizen you pay very little and it can be covered by interest free loans as I mentioned (every citizen/resident has this option), plus up front payments give you 20% discount and some scholarships will see you earn profits (10k per year for 6-8k in fees) and internships even more...
Seems like your taxes are not going to good use!!!
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
The absolute most expensive universities might go that high for a 4 year degree, but at the other end of the spectrum, someone who goes to a community college for 2 years, then a public university for another 2, could be looking at as little as $30k.
But keep in mind, you're only paying full price if you don't qualify for financial aid, which at the most expensive universities, quite a few people do. My personal figures are (including room and board for all 4 years) about $80k total for a 4 year degree from Princeton. Room and board alone probably makes up half of that, so by the time you get to what I'm really paying to be educated, it seems reasonable, if not what you'd call cheap.
Princeton is a great University, graduating from there should guarantee you a good job mate , Harvard is ridiculously overpriced, but what methods are there for paying for University degrees?
In Australia if you have permanent residency or are a citizen you pay very little and it can be covered by interest free loans as I mentioned (every citizen/resident has this option), plus up front payments give you 20% discount and some scholarships will see you earn profits (10k per year for 6-8k in fees) and internships even more...
Seems like your taxes are not going to good use!!!
Americans tend to prefer to employ a market for most goods, including education. This means there is a huge variety of educational institutions, from the extremely prestigious and expensive, like Harvard, and very cheap vocational colleges.
People who have the money or the ambition to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt can go to the top Universities. You can get a degree for less than a couple grand if you go to a community college. My wife got a bachelors degree for only $12,000.
$10k isn't that much for anyone to pay off for an education that will be profitable for a lifetime. Despite that we still have millions of dollars in financial aid, grants, scholarships, no interest loans, etc.
But you are right, in most ways our taxes are not going to good use.
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
The absolute most expensive universities might go that high for a 4 year degree, but at the other end of the spectrum, someone who goes to a community college for 2 years, then a public university for another 2, could be looking at as little as $30k.
But keep in mind, you're only paying full price if you don't qualify for financial aid, which at the most expensive universities, quite a few people do. My personal figures are (including room and board for all 4 years) about $80k total for a 4 year degree from Princeton. Room and board alone probably makes up half of that, so by the time you get to what I'm really paying to be educated, it seems reasonable, if not what you'd call cheap.
Princeton is a great University, graduating from there should guarantee you a good job mate , Harvard is ridiculously overpriced, but what methods are there for paying for University degrees?
In Australia if you have permanent residency or are a citizen you pay very little and it can be covered by interest free loans as I mentioned (every citizen/resident has this option), plus up front payments give you 20% discount and some scholarships will see you earn profits (10k per year for 6-8k in fees) and internships even more...
Seems like your taxes are not going to good use!!!
Americans tend to prefer to employ a market for most goods, including education. This means there is a huge variety of educational institutions, from the extremely prestigious and expensive, like Harvard, and very cheap vocational colleges.
People who have the money or the ambition to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt can go to the top Universities. You can get a degree for less than a couple grand if you go to a community college. My wife got a bachelors degree for only $12,000.
$10k isn't that much for anyone to pay off for an education that will be profitable for a lifetime. Despite that we still have millions of dollars in financial aid, grants, scholarships, no interest loans, etc.
But you are right, in most ways our taxes are not going to good use.
How's the tax brackets working out for Americans? Is it a progressive tax system? So much greed amongst the wealthy, imo for every dollar earned over 2 million, 50 cents should be paid in tax which is not subjected to any tax shielding benefits, would never happen though.
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
The absolute most expensive universities might go that high for a 4 year degree, but at the other end of the spectrum, someone who goes to a community college for 2 years, then a public university for another 2, could be looking at as little as $30k.
But keep in mind, you're only paying full price if you don't qualify for financial aid, which at the most expensive universities, quite a few people do. My personal figures are (including room and board for all 4 years) about $80k total for a 4 year degree from Princeton. Room and board alone probably makes up half of that, so by the time you get to what I'm really paying to be educated, it seems reasonable, if not what you'd call cheap.
Princeton is a great University, graduating from there should guarantee you a good job mate , Harvard is ridiculously overpriced, but what methods are there for paying for University degrees?
In Australia if you have permanent residency or are a citizen you pay very little and it can be covered by interest free loans as I mentioned (every citizen/resident has this option), plus up front payments give you 20% discount and some scholarships will see you earn profits (10k per year for 6-8k in fees) and internships even more...
Seems like your taxes are not going to good use!!!
Americans tend to prefer to employ a market for most goods, including education. This means there is a huge variety of educational institutions, from the extremely prestigious and expensive, like Harvard, and very cheap vocational colleges.
People who have the money or the ambition to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt can go to the top Universities. You can get a degree for less than a couple grand if you go to a community college. My wife got a bachelors degree for only $12,000.
$10k isn't that much for anyone to pay off for an education that will be profitable for a lifetime. Despite that we still have millions of dollars in financial aid, grants, scholarships, no interest loans, etc.
But you are right, in most ways our taxes are not going to good use.
How's the tax brackets working out for Americans? Is it a progressive tax system? So much greed amongst the wealthy, imo for every dollar earned over 2 million, 50 cents should be paid in tax which is not subjected to any tax shielding benefits, would never happen though.
Yes, we have a very progressive federal tax system, unless you are referring to the small minority of the wealthy who make their primary income through capital gains. I understand you have a general dislike of the American system, but you don't need to irrationally assume that the flaws you see apply to every aspect of our society, including education.
On October 23 2011 09:37 Tien wrote: If unemployment levels drop to 4%, do you think anything would change in the ghetto? If police became extremely lenient on African Americans, would anything change?
No one knows how to solve the issues of African American ghettos
But I do know that if successful African Americans start doing their own "occupy ghetto" movements to help raise destitute poor single parented African American kids, the crime rate of African Americans would drop.
And that's what these kids in the ghettos need the most, they need help from their own communities and people. They need fathers that have gone to college. They need successful role models to shape their lives. Rappers and pro athletes aren't.
User was temp banned for this post.
This ban is rather odd... The reason doesn't shed much light on it either.
Isn't he just saying that two parent homes and better role models would improve the ghettos? I'm trying to find the offensive statement here.
Read his previous posts in the previous 3/4 pages, you'll understand.
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
The absolute most expensive universities might go that high for a 4 year degree, but at the other end of the spectrum, someone who goes to a community college for 2 years, then a public university for another 2, could be looking at as little as $30k.
But keep in mind, you're only paying full price if you don't qualify for financial aid, which at the most expensive universities, quite a few people do. My personal figures are (including room and board for all 4 years) about $80k total for a 4 year degree from Princeton. Room and board alone probably makes up half of that, so by the time you get to what I'm really paying to be educated, it seems reasonable, if not what you'd call cheap.
Princeton is a great University, graduating from there should guarantee you a good job mate , Harvard is ridiculously overpriced, but what methods are there for paying for University degrees?
In Australia if you have permanent residency or are a citizen you pay very little and it can be covered by interest free loans as I mentioned (every citizen/resident has this option), plus up front payments give you 20% discount and some scholarships will see you earn profits (10k per year for 6-8k in fees) and internships even more...
Seems like your taxes are not going to good use!!!
Americans tend to prefer to employ a market for most goods, including education. This means there is a huge variety of educational institutions, from the extremely prestigious and expensive, like Harvard, and very cheap vocational colleges.
People who have the money or the ambition to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt can go to the top Universities. You can get a degree for less than a couple grand if you go to a community college. My wife got a bachelors degree for only $12,000.
$10k isn't that much for anyone to pay off for an education that will be profitable for a lifetime. Despite that we still have millions of dollars in financial aid, grants, scholarships, no interest loans, etc.
But you are right, in most ways our taxes are not going to good use.
How's the tax brackets working out for Americans? Is it a progressive tax system? So much greed amongst the wealthy, imo for every dollar earned over 2 million, 50 cents should be paid in tax which is not subjected to any tax shielding benefits, would never happen though.
Yes, we have a very progressive federal tax system, unless you are referring to the small minority of the wealthy who make their primary income through capital gains. I understand you have a general dislike of the American system, but you don't need to irrationally assume that the flaws you see apply to every aspect of our society, including education.
Capital gains is highly taxed in Australia, with education, this website indicates American universities have the highest fees:
However, what really matters is reputation ranking when it comes to finding jobs domestically or overseas, generally speaking (obviously MIT grads are the most sought after for engineering etc.)
On October 23 2011 09:37 Tien wrote: If unemployment levels drop to 4%, do you think anything would change in the ghetto? If police became extremely lenient on African Americans, would anything change?
No one knows how to solve the issues of African American ghettos
But I do know that if successful African Americans start doing their own "occupy ghetto" movements to help raise destitute poor single parented African American kids, the crime rate of African Americans would drop.
And that's what these kids in the ghettos need the most, they need help from their own communities and people. They need fathers that have gone to college. They need successful role models to shape their lives. Rappers and pro athletes aren't.
User was temp banned for this post.
This ban is rather odd... The reason doesn't shed much light on it either.
Isn't he just saying that two parent homes and better role models would improve the ghettos? I'm trying to find the offensive statement here.
I have to agree, I don't see any reason to single him out for a ban
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
A huge factor in the very high tuition rates of many universities is that the government guarantees banks on loans to students attending university, loans that often times wouldn't make any sense to give in a free market. Without all these loans being given out students wouldn't be able to afford the current tuition rates and universities would be forced to lower their tuition if they wanted to maintain students.
On October 23 2011 01:36 DeepElemBlues wrote: Actually Biff you're smart enough to know that this is not the case, you know I have repeatedly mentioned things like corporations using the power of the state to break strikes, you're just posturing. You know what you're saying is just what you wish was true about me.
So, if corporations are strong enough and influential enough to bend the state, which is supposed to represent the collective will of the people, explain to the thread how exactly creating a power vacuum with no teeth to counteract corporate influence is supposed to prevent these abuses?
Caradoc, I've struck out the one line of idealistic thinking, because there is much evidence that the "collective will of the people" as represented by the state is highly corporatist and not really the collective will of the people.
The Cenk Uygur's exposition of the politician establishment, regulations, and lobbying, as posted by you, and the non-government nature of the OWS protest should provide the answer to your own question.
On October 23 2011 09:58 meatbox wrote: Just a question on American college fees, how much would a 3-5 year course cost to complete?
I've heard around $300k...
Meanwhile a degree from Australia will set you back only 20k and this can be paid off with interest free loans (adjusted for CPI only).
A huge factor in the very high tuition rates of many universities is that the government guarantees banks on loans to students attending university, loans that often times wouldn't make any sense to give in a free market. Without all these loans being given out students wouldn't be able to afford the current tuition rates and universities would be forced to lower their tuition if they wanted to maintain students.
Tell that to the California school system in which State and UC's the cost of tuition directly goes up depending on how much money the system gets from the state, per person. It's a trend you can easily track at least for the past 10 years or so. A student loan by the government are often next to nothing in interest, but they are i believe un avoidable they will follow you though bankruptcy, which i believe is because when education was fairly cheap compared to now some people would after getting their education file for bankrupcy, hell they have nothing to lose XD and be done with that.
And you idea of demand is full of shit, most of the California state system is looking for a way to purge in state students because they have so many, so infact for California you'd see even more increases in tuition. Because in economic depression people often need retraining to obtain a job. So by your system schools which see a rise in number of applicants during depressions would just keep raising tuition meaning less people would be retained and more expensive loans would be given out. Because american is ran on skilled labor tuition would be similar to that of private schools in america which can cost up to 300k for your degree as the demand is quite high for education as unskilled labor is often payed too little to live above poverty in america unless you are unionized. You also seem to forget the idea that because the money is guaranteed investments can be made in advance because the risk is lowered and thus the amount of money in demand can be lowered
On October 23 2011 15:16 OsoVega wrote: A huge factor in the very high tuition rates of many universities is that the government guarantees banks on loans to students attending university, loans that often times wouldn't make any sense to give in a free market. Without all these loans being given out students wouldn't be able to afford the current tuition rates and universities would be forced to lower their tuition if they wanted to maintain students.
Tell that to the California school system in which State and UC's the cost of tuition directly goes up depending on how much money the system gets from the state, per person. It's a trend you can easily track atleast for the past 10 years or so. A student loan by the government are often next to nothing in interest, but they are i believe un avoidable they will follow you though bankruptcy, which i believe is because when education was fairly cheap compared to now some people would after getting their education file for bankrupcy, hell they have nothing to lose XD and be done with that.
California State government is running out of money to borrow. By funding its colleges less out of the state budget, the students are seeing more of the actual cost of providing the education. It's shifting the costs from state to student. This is somewhat unrelated to the issue of loans and government guarantees.
Loan guarantees by the government increases the supply of loans to students by reducing the default risk for lenders. Having a large supply of loans to students increases the ability to pay for tuitions outside one's immediate means. More young students that want to go to college can go - provided they are willing to take out the loans. A lower supply of loans necessarily means that less students will enroll in college. Some students will either be denied the loan or find the loan terms too extravagant for themselves.
The main factor in high cost of education (tuition rates + state funding) is that so many people go to college. Student loans is only part of that picture.
On October 23 2011 09:37 Tien wrote: If unemployment levels drop to 4%, do you think anything would change in the ghetto? If police became extremely lenient on African Americans, would anything change?
No one knows how to solve the issues of African American ghettos
But I do know that if successful African Americans start doing their own "occupy ghetto" movements to help raise destitute poor single parented African American kids, the crime rate of African Americans would drop.
And that's what these kids in the ghettos need the most, they need help from their own communities and people. They need fathers that have gone to college. They need successful role models to shape their lives. Rappers and pro athletes aren't.
User was temp banned for this post.
Hmm strange ban. Yea i read some of his past posts and it seems borderline racist, but it seems more to me like him expressing a somewhat harshly honest opinion based on statistics.
If the guy was talking about some statistic of Asian Americans being introverted nerds and that its Asian parents responsibility to help them develop social skills, no one would consider it racist. I wouldnt take offense to it. Yet his comments here are offensive enough for a ban. Maybe Im missing something, this is just my knee-jerk reaction to seeing this
People who have money DAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN YOU! lol these clowns crack me up! but quite scary at the same time.
"People who have all the money certainly didn't work for it" Yeap, Steve jobs stumbled on a Ipod Mine hidden beneath the earth!
A CEO makes over 470 times the amount of an employee of that company. Good for him! Go create your own company and do the same thing!
"$200,000 is considered an obscene amount of money and no one spends that amount on anything" what a profoundly foolish statement.
"Capitalism is based on slavery and genocide" Another profoundly foolish statement
Then the one idiot contradicts herself by saying she wants a workers government so that the people that make the money run the country. Uh hello isnt that was you're protesting against now? lol
Then the one guys says kill those who dont agree with them and states he's joking. I personally dont believe he was joking but i may be wrong on that.
EPT
, Harvard is ridiculously overpriced, but what methods are there for paying for University degrees?
