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imo Dimaga lost in ESL becasue he always uses those bos that are very vulnerable to harrass and not even that much better economically. You don't have to get such a huge economical advantage to be able to play spling/bling (if the terran goes bio). He also messed up quite a bit.
Also those ESL games don't really tell anything about baneling balance. Even if terrans were doing better with hellion/viking/banshee builds that wouldn't be desirable. Only having a single tech option to deal with zerg is bad. And if that option is highly risky then that's even worse.
I definitely wouldn't increase baneling cost (that just doesn't fit for a .5 supply unit). There are other ways to fix them.
Putting them higher up the tech tree imo wouldn't help much. I never feel like I have to get them as early as I could. I don't even think it would allow terran to pressure the zerg well because you don't want to waste a scan that early and a decent number of speedlings seems to kill any early pressure even without banes.
Imo the best idea so far is to make banes deal no damage when killed. They still will be hard to deal with and if the terran isn't playing well they will definitely rape just as badly, but it should open enough opportunities to counter them with proper micro.
It also isn't an uninteresting change like (time/resource) cost, damage or speed nerfs.
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Yo, not related to thread, but I wanted to ask OP something, Strelok did you ever play lineage 2? Because I used to play with a guy who was from russia and his name was 3DArcher, and strelok = archer/shooter or w/e
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On March 21 2010 06:38 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 05:58 MorroW wrote:
u cant change a unit cost to anthing but 25 0 50 or 75 tho naruto. 40 breaks the laws of physics and makes the blizzard server implode 3 times uppsidedown
i dont think banelings cost too much, i just think zerg tech tree in general is too cheap and banelings exploding when dying is ridiculous :p I never said I want to change the costs.
oh yes ur right, sorry. it was someone else
but its pretty hard to avoid a flank in sc2 because units are very small while terrain is about same size
also zerg puts creep all over the map so they get +30% move speed (i think it is) and that basically allows them to roam around however they want, its like like the terrain ball can hug the edge of the cliff while we move because then we have no chance of escaping reinforcing or microing
the only way i can play straight up tvz is to make a fakemove on the map so he move to middle to preapre for a flank then i enter my 6 medievacs and attack his main base meanwhile i have about 15 supply depots blocking my natural lol
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On March 19 2010 04:05 3D.Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:48 hellitsaboutme wrote: It's just a matter of seconds for stimmed Maradeurs and Tanks to kill Ultralisks. (Ultras dont kill ravens, you can turtle and move around with Ravens only. No more scorges)
Then make proposition where you consider pros and cons of all races not only yours. I am totally ok with making suggestions and propositions, if it's done wisely. Oh really? Tanks shot ultralisks 1 time. Ultralisk come into rines and marauders. Tanks shot all your army with next shot theirself. To kill 1 ultralisk you need to make 10 tanks shot. It's not first starcraft yo!
This. Tanks in siege mode are a totally different unit from SC1:
- They deal lower damage against armored/large units (60, down from 70 in SC1)
- They deal much higher damage against light/small units (60, up from 35 in SC1)
- They have a greater AoE splash radius
- They're more expensive
Now, look at the consolidated effect of the changes:
Against armored/large targets, tanks are worse due to being more expensive, and worse still due to dealing less damage per attack; against light/small targets, tanks are slightly worse due to higher cost, hugely better due to dealing 70%+ more damage per shot, and better yet when shooting at tightly-packed groups of units thanks to their new and improved AoE splash radius (which is very significant because light/small targets clump up a lot more than armored/large units do).
Tanks seem to be more effective at vaporizing swarms of lings / banelings than they are at melting big, armored units such as thors or ultralisks.
Marauders/Thors ripping up Ultras, I can buy. Tanks? Not so much.
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Tanks are trash vs zerg imo, atleast against top tier zergs I have not been able to use them cause you simply miss anykind of mobility to attack or control the map. On a map like blistering sand tanks can be good but on maps with alot of eco they are trash.
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my solution is very simple, just get tanks ... thats all.
siegetanks just eat zerg groundunits alive.
and they do so, because they have an intelligent aiming system now.
(you can set the target of them aswell).
even if something comes closer, its not even nearfull hp, and will be done by the mmm with ease.
so in my opinion, just get more rines, a bit less marauder and add tanks.
with one expansion you can afford to have like 1 factory, 4 baracks (2 tech / 2 reactor)
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making 4-5 tanks to cover your base while you run around killing stuff with your ball is nice though.
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From the zerg perspective, the MM ball is very dangerous and if we fail with even one baneling attempt that can be gg right there. The new improved marines + no muta stacking means they absolutely eat mutas for lunch. So basically our whole survival depends on that good baneling hit.
Tanks work ok even when not in siege mode. Just stimpack and run back through them. I mean, really you don't even care if you lose every single unit you own except the marines, cause they are all you need to own all of my lings and mutas. Banelings do almost zero damage to anything in your army other than marines or hellions.
Also, I'm not so sure about the lurker solution working in SC2. It works well in SC1 because all they had to counter it until tanks was marines, but in this one they have marauders. Just think of what dragoons did to lurkers in SC1 and that's basically what marauders would do to them this time. So in order for them to work there would have to be some sort of major change to them (like huge bonus damage to armored or something crazy).
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On March 19 2010 03:38 3D.Strelok wrote:
Ultralisk don't give a shit about HSM. And i don't fight for my race. This is BETA version and i make a proposition to make it better balanced.
Totally agree with most of your points, and to people saying x is fighting for y race - well, someones going to balance it, and who better than the ones who actually attempt to master the races?
On topic: Banelings seem pretty damn strong, even against zealots they're really efficient, not quite sure what the solution would be, but if it was up to me Zerg would need some serious restructuring and move away from the current design with large units it has at the moment.
And to the people saying X tier 2 unit counters banelings - that's not really helping if you're losing map-control early on because of it.
(*cough cough* roaches PvZ)
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On March 21 2010 08:36 MaD.pYrO wrote:
And to the people saying X tier 2 unit counters banelings - that's not really helping if you're losing map-control early on because of it.
(*cough cough* roaches PvZ)
This is pretty irrelevant for toss though seeing how fast they can fly up any one of their tech trees. Toss t2 comes out by the time you've got like 5 or 6 t1.5 units, and toss t3 units can be out by the time anyone else gets t2. The kicker is this isn't even in some sort of all in tech rush as toss can still make a respectable ground force while flying up a tech tree. If a zerg rushes straight to muta, 4-6 muta is all he will own by the time you show up with your immortal push.
As for banelings, they are pretty suck without speed which is a t2 upgrade. That being said, it isn't hard to contain a terran with just speedlings. The terrans that really get me are the ones that are good with the hellion into banshee harass while they expand, then build like 5 barracks and make huge bio balls.
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drops help alot if u cant get mapcontroll. and when u get into a fight with banelings, stim - run - shot - run - shot. as long as no investors are out, terrans are superfine and zerg cant afford to go early investors, since they need a big army to get map controll.
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On March 21 2010 09:21 zul wrote:
drops help alot if u cant get mapcontroll. and when u get into a fight with banelings, stim - run - shot - run - shot. as long as no investors are out, terrans are superfine and zerg cant afford to go early investors, since they need a big army to get map controll.
Have you ever fought banelings on creep, with and without speed upgrade? What about speedlings? Speedlings will surround you in a split second, and then banelings come in to mop up.
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Guys. you need to realise that tanks can be in UNSIEGE after the first shot.
there is no way ultralisks can beat a large defensive MMM tank position, because tanks can choose for higher dps by unsieging (focused damage).
Also, there is no reason to fight banelings on creep. The only reason the map is filled with creep is the terran gave up map control, which shoudnt happen with 5 rax pumping stuff, OR vikings, OR medivacs.
Another thing is, Although banelings are good for map control and defence generally with burrow, Once terran has medivacs out, they can just drop any base with 2 dozen rines behind mineral lines, and without a strong hydra roach force, this is impossible to take down.
This T doom drop is especially strong versus baneling-muta, cuz the minerals are just so good at protecting the drop.
There is no such thing as banelings being inbalanced. Every single terran unit counters banelings with the proper setup, there is no reason to fight the zerg in a disadvantageous position (like, waltzing on their cliffs)
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On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi.
I did not know they dealt dmg when they were killed. No wonder my marines keep melting after i focus fired the banelings...
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so the point is, just make banelings dont do damage when they die.
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i dont know if this is feasible, but anyone try dropship micro vs banelings? since medivacs kinda serve as dropships and can pick up units, wouldnt it be a good idea to use your 4-5 medivacs to pick up 32-40 marines after you see the banelings like just before they reach you, so that they get wasted on your marauders and you can drop them back down right afterwards to clean up his army?
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Let's say, for arguments sake, that the banelings are overpowered. As a zerg player what, then, is my counter to an m&m ball? If I know you're going to go with an m&m&m push, and my banelings are nerfed, what am I supposed to do? How should I punish such predictable play?
FWIW I'll attempt to answer the question reversed (but I'm a very middling player): I lose games if my banelings explode on marauders, or if I take b/lings anywhere near a sieged tank or terran wall-in, or if I screw up my timings and the banelings attack too soon or too late relative to the rest of my army. Also: has anyone who can play tried reapers against speedlings/banelings?
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On March 21 2010 10:12 SturmAddict wrote:
Guys. you need to realise that tanks can be in UNSIEGE after the first shot.
there is no way ultralisks can beat a large defensive MMM tank position, because tanks can choose for higher dps by unsieging (focused damage).
Also, there is no reason to fight banelings on creep. The only reason the map is filled with creep is the terran gave up map control, which shoudnt happen with 5 rax pumping stuff, OR vikings, OR medivacs.
Another thing is, Although banelings are good for map control and defence generally with burrow, Once terran has medivacs out, they can just drop any base with 2 dozen rines behind mineral lines, and without a strong hydra roach force, this is impossible to take down.
This T doom drop is especially strong versus baneling-muta, cuz the minerals are just so good at protecting the drop.
There is no such thing as banelings being inbalanced. Every single terran unit counters banelings with the proper setup, there is no reason to fight the zerg in a disadvantageous position (like, waltzing on their cliffs)
yea lolz. Use up all that extra APM u have to kill creep tumors/naga tower control unit.(witha banshee for example)
But hey it took terrans like 20 watchable dimaga zvt game to realize his build is super vulnerable to banshee/helion.
It took dimaga 1 series vs Luci to come up with a rush that got him to a Zotac cup finals.
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I'm top 3 platinum division Zerg and I think ZvT is the most balanced and difficult for both sides at the moment. (similar to zvt in sc1). I've lost way more to T than any other race at the moment.
(For reference I usually pool - fast expo - ling speed to lair bane/hydra/ling/infestor. T usually goes mmm/tank eventually raven.. and a few times 1-2 ghosts for emp on my defilers.)
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On March 19 2010 03:46 superstartran wrote:
Here's the thing, Marines are your BEST counter to Mutalisks. This is a universally accepted truth. Vikings blow against Mutas, have 0 armor, and cost too much gas to keep up. Thors are too expensive, slow, etc. Banelings however counter the crap out of them, so what can you do? Sit in your base and turtle. Basically all you can do, is hope you can survive till Ravens, and hope the Zerg didn't take advantage of having control of the whole map.
I lead with marauders, and try to have about an even mix of marines and marauders. You don't need as many marines to kill lings when the marauders can take some of the hits for you, roaches die fast with such a high mix of marauders, and you can push on even a well defended expo well before mutas are available to punish your light use of marines.
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EPT
