EPTBanelings in TvZ (balance change proposition) - Page 8
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Maynard
United States889 Posts
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Maynard
United States889 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:14 Maynard wrote: Anyway I think if Ts are letting you FE as Z they just simply dont want to do an overpowered cheese rush on you and want to have fun instead. I tried: 2 Rax no OC, Marine/SCV Rush 2 Rax OC, Marine/SCV Rush 2 Rax, Gas, no OC, Reactor Rush none of those builds work against a good zerg. Also, 2nd Zotac Cup I think. | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:14 Maynard wrote: Anyway I think if Ts are letting you FE as Z they just simply dont want to do an overpowered cheese rush on you and want to have fun instead. If it always works then it's not really cheese. | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
it should work out naturally i guess. rmb folks u guys are pkaying the BETA not the real game yet. if banelings were overpowered then blizzard will nerf it | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:22 streamofhonour wrote: why dont u all just wait for someone to come out with a counter? it applies the same logic to how protosses in scbw were raping hard last year until someone created the 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra to counter them. it should work out naturally i guess. rmb folks u guys are pkaying the BETA not the real game yet. if banelings were overpowered then blizzard will nerf it If no one complains and states how it is, Blizzard won't change anything. Blizzard keeps an eye on discussion where people bring arguments and don't just flame. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
so what you get with the build is nice early pressure with the option to 3 rax and continue pressure or safe expo. choosing either just means the other comes after getting dual gas (might not need TvZ) because on the second mule you get enough minerals to do it again. it's also nice because you force larva usage and / or roach tech. you control the aggression, you control the flow, you control the game awwwww yeeaaahhhhh | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
1) lings raping you, since spinecrawlers / lings / queen rape marines 2) roaches raping you since you don't have marauders I always fast expand with a bunker, into 3 rax (2 tech, 1 reactor) adding more rax when MULE's kick in and medivac's. Its as macro-heavy and adaptive as it gets. | ||
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Maynard
United States889 Posts
A match where someone messed up doesn't really prove anything balancewise. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:31 Maynard wrote: Just saw the Dimaga v. Morrow replay. The T had the game won. All he had to do was run his marines above the minerals, block the opening w/ SCVS. GG. Instead he fought in the open and barely lost the battle. I closed replay after that. A match where someone messed up doesn't really prove anything balancewise. DIMAGA messed up vs LucifroNNN on KR, yet its always put as example that Zerg isn't overpowered. | ||
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EGLzGaMeR
United States1867 Posts
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Maynard
United States889 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:33 G.s)NarutO wrote: DIMAGA messed up vs LucifroNNN on KR, yet its always put as example that Zerg isn't overpowered. I have no idea who these dudes or replays are but you referenced me to that replay as a showing that Z>T. All I saw was a successful cheese rush butchered. T goes back to main and just pumps econ/military =win. T blocks choke for a few minutes then runs before speed kicks in = win. T puts marines above mineral spot and blocks openings from Z = win. T waits a bit then fights queen/lings/drones in open = loss. If anything this should show you that Z is absolutely unable to expand early. Also I don't think that T had to sacrifice early economy as he did. He could have achieved the same making more scvs, having 1 fewer marine, but having a bunker put up at Z natural. But I think I will agree with you that once the power of T to stop early expansions is removed, that Z will be stronger. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:33 Lz wrote: i have not had a problem vs. bainlings.. there a strong unit.. but make them any weaker and they would be useless IMO.. If you throw in that you don't have any problems against banelings, please explain the circumstances, since without reasoning, there's no way anyone could judge about the situation you were in / you faced. What did you play, what did he play, how did you manage to fight them off etc. I don't have problems with armies where a few banelings are mixed in, but if he has massive amounts, its hell. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On March 20 2010 07:51 DeMusliM wrote: problem with hellions vs banelings, due to their fairly short range (or by short, i mean long annimation time) by the time the shots been fired the baneling was around close, thus meaning your helions take a huge hit. Only thing i've found affective so far is good marauder/rine micro vs a flock of banelings/lings - everything else is just not cost effective or good vs other units such as roachs or hydras. This sort of calmed me down, I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone's feelings here. I'm still curious though - what openings do you guys use? Do you tend to get Medivacs ASAP? Have you tried adding another Factory before Starport /// switching addons of the 1 you have for a good mix of Hellions (not a pure Hellion force though!) but keeping in mind to start Hellion's upgrade fairly early? Does it matter if you use A-move or Patrol at all? How do you micro your Hellions? Have you tried to use it in a different way than microing Vultures? What DeMusliM wrote made me remember BW Lurker Defense UMS where keeping Lurkers spread in a line was always better than having them burrowed all in one place - maybe Hellions should approach lings in similar way? Not all of them would start shooting at the same time but risk of not utilizing splash to the full extent should be lower; another thing is some Hellions would be shooting while those in the front retreat a bit, until they all don't form a line anymore. I have yet to try this against bot as I just now got a launcher allowing me to pick races... Since there is no Medium armor and Hydras are Light, Hellions should be of any use against them - not alone but not worthless at the same time? When you do try to use Hellions do you try not to send them too far away from your other units (MMM)? Do you try to load your Hellions and Marines into Medivacs during battles? | ||
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lynx.oblige
Sierra Leone2268 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote: increase price of baneling nest/upgrade and move them to lair tech to fully balance them in vs p/t mu's imo I agree with this. Makes them come out later but doesn't weaken them as a unit either. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On March 21 2010 01:34 DeMusliM wrote: you obviously didn't look carefully at how many mistakes he made against it. I'll go into detail on kulas - 1. the amount of drones he kept making and losing on this cliff expo was staggering, if he wanted to make that many drones and mine with them, he could of just mined from his main, he lost atleast 1k+ minerals by doing this. 2. he could of attacked the rocks and got up the cliff - limiting the use of vikings to stop him from mining at his expo. 3. Hellions are not a viable counter - they are further countered by the main problem being hydras/lings/banelings. - Sure they are a nice harrass tool if the zerg isn't prepared, but that's just abit sloppy. Lucifron used 2 strategies on game 2/3 because he knew EXACTLY how dimaga was gonna play - fe, lings/baneling contain. - Now that doesn't mean this viking/hellion is gonna work every single game does it? No. The thing you have to realise is, Dimaga is a really great zerg right now, but he made a few errors that i'm sure he won't make again in a hurry. These suprise strategies sure inflicted major damage, but it was mainly down to the fact dimaga didn't handle it properly. I'm probably a lot weaker then you guys i'm only 10th in gold division , but really a mass of hellions is the counter to the units mentioned above . 10 -12 hellions or even more mixed in with your MMM army would be a wise investement vs anything thats light armored they aren't even that bad vs roaches . You can do animation cancel with hellions , they of course have to stop for like half or less of a second , but they are curtainly the best counter against mass lings/banelings and even hidras . The only issue is that you need to transition smoothly from MMM to hellions or vice versa depening on your opening build and also keep a balanced composition between them . | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:30 G.s)NarutO wrote: You can put early agression on Zerg, but there's a high chance of: 1) lings raping you, since spinecrawlers / lings / queen rape marines 2) roaches raping you since you don't have marauders I always fast expand with a bunker, into 3 rax (2 tech, 1 reactor) adding more rax when MULE's kick in and medivac's. Its as macro-heavy and adaptive as it gets. the thing about that is you let the zerg power drones for a good portion of the game while you FE. then you have to spend a MULE to scan because you gave up map control in order to scout. the way you describe it it doesn't seem too much different from a 2 rax opening except your cc is earlier but you give up the ability to apply and continue early pressure. i also dislike using reactors and just add as many barracks as you need because mid game you'll be getting 2 ebays for upgrades / marauders / tanks / medivacs. the faster you can get those the better and you're not really losing anything by spending more minerals. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
a question to all those who think banelings are to strong. whats your winrate vs zerg? | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2010 03:50 zul wrote: banelings need to be strong and i dont see them being overpowered. how u want to defend a terran bio army without them? if u tech roaches, terrans just make more marauders and kills zerg in the first push. i see many good terran winning vs banelings, tho maybe it is possible that your playstyle needs some adjustment. a question to all those who think banelings are to strong. whats your winrate vs zerg? Probably around 70% with my fast expansion and fast 2-2 160/200 push. Around 30% with 1 base-play. But that fast expansion styles only works so well because lots of Zerg send banelings to attack bunkers etc. They manage to break the defence, but lose so many gas while I only lose minerals and just rebuild bunkers. They don't expand while doing so, so I get a massive army advantage later. Against Zergs who stay back, expand and MASS baneling hydra/roach, I lose a lot. I mean you 'can' wait for Ravens and counter all Zerg got, but they are so late (with their upgrades etc..) that its not worth waiting / too risky, because Zerg got the whole map. | ||
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