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On March 21 2010 01:08 Irrelevant wrote:Show nested quote +because zerg won't give you 3-d base with his banelings and army. I dont agree, I've played with players that can secure as many bases as avarage zerg player. Bunkers are not expensive, they eat dmg pretty well, and if they are no longer needed - you can sell them again. The problem is not in defending. Problem is in attacking. Watch Dimaga vs Morrow game from Zotac. Morrow went mass tanking and 3-d base. Dimaga just switched to ultralisks. Morrow could do nothing. Now go watch Dimaga's zerg style get completely raped by Lucifronnnn. Why should 1 Terran build(MMM) beat everything zerg can do? MMM was to counter roach/hydra so zerg switched to ling/banes to counter MMM, well to counter that all Terran has to do is go hellion + vikings or banshees. You're not trying to help the game you're trying to simplify it to one Terran strat > anything a zerg can do to counter it and that's just lame.
Thats simply not true. Viking / Tank / Hellion is not viable against Zerg, since Baneling/Hydra/Roach or Air will eat you alive. Vikings even if you get more than mutas lose to hard to mutas.. its not even funny.
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Did you even go watch the series? He was completely helpless against it.
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hellions are probably very good against banelings, just by looking at the numbers: baneling has 30hp and does 15 damage(to hellions) and hellion has 90hp and does 16 damage(to banelings) :}.
P.s. Baneling costs 50/25 and Hellion costs 100.
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On March 21 2010 01:27 Irrelevant wrote:
Did you even go watch the series? He was completely helpless against it.
I don't need to watch DIMAGA getting stomped by LucifroNNN on KR because he didn't destroy the rocks. Also one game isn't really going to proof the experience of thousands of games wrong.
The point is: LucifroNNN won't win 3 games in a row with this stuff, while Zerg could and can.
On March 21 2010 01:31 ProoM wrote:
hellions are probably very good against banelings, just by looking at the numbers: baneling has 30hp and does 15 damage(to hellions) and hellion has 90hp and does 16 damage(to banelings) :}.
The slow attack animation of the hellion make it only good in theory and HUGE numbers, but speedlings / banelings charge at the hellion so fast, it just gets shredded.
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you obviously didn't look carefully at how many mistakes he made against it.
I'll go into detail on kulas -
1. the amount of drones he kept making and losing on this cliff expo was staggering, if he wanted to make that many drones and mine with them, he could of just mined from his main, he lost atleast 1k+ minerals by doing this.
2. he could of attacked the rocks and got up the cliff - limiting the use of vikings to stop him from mining at his expo.
3. Hellions are not a viable counter - they are further countered by the main problem being hydras/lings/banelings. - Sure they are a nice harrass tool if the zerg isn't prepared, but that's just abit sloppy.
Lucifron used 2 strategies on game 2/3 because he knew EXACTLY how dimaga was gonna play - fe, lings/baneling contain. - Now that doesn't mean this viking/hellion is gonna work every single game does it? No.
The thing you have to realise is, Dimaga is a really great zerg right now, but he made a few errors that i'm sure he won't make again in a hurry. These suprise strategies sure inflicted major damage, but it was mainly down to the fact dimaga didn't handle it properly.
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On March 21 2010 01:34 DeMusliM wrote:
Lucifron used 2 strategies on game 2/3 because he knew EXACTLY how dimaga was gonna play - fe, lings/baneling contain. - Now that doesn't mean this viking/hellion is gonna work every single game does it? No.
My point exactly, he switched up his play to confuse the zerg, instead of sitting here bitching that MMM loses to ling/bane, he went out and did a build to counter them and did a great job at it.
It shouldn't work every game, that's the point, nothing should work every game, the fact that there is at least 2 viable counters to that build shows this game is on the right path.
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No it isn't your point exactly, the point is the zerg messed up - thus the terran came out the victor.
The fact the zerg had to mess up, and make large mistakes in order for the "counter" to work, just shows how wrong you actually are.
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On March 21 2010 01:48 DeMusliM wrote:
No it isn't your point exactly, the point is the zerg messed up - thus the terran came out the victor.
The fact the zerg had to mess up, and make large mistakes in order for the "counter" to work, just shows how wrong you actually are.
and how exactly do u know that it wouldnt work had dimaga played well.
Hell, Luci woulda won game one had he had decent macro.
The fact that the harrass was so succesfull in game #1 even tho Luci was stockpiling the minerals all game long clearly shows that banelings need to be buffed.
See, this train of thought works both ways.
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On March 21 2010 02:02 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 01:48 DeMusliM wrote:
No it isn't your point exactly, the point is the zerg messed up - thus the terran came out the victor.
The fact the zerg had to mess up, and make large mistakes in order for the "counter" to work, just shows how wrong you actually are. and how exactly do u know that it wouldnt work had dimaga played well. Hell, Luci woulda won game one had he had decent macro. The fact that the harrass was so succesfull in game #1 even tho Luci was stockpiling the minerals all game long clearly shows that banelings need to be buffed. See, this train of thought works both ways.
Banelings need to be BUFFED
Someone please hold me back or I'm going to Belarus today.
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all im saying stop fucking with the balance. stop jumping the gun.
demuslim surely must remember the days of night elf AoW's.
Now that was bad. This, this is nothing.
Sure if dimaga kept on freerolling everything there would be a cause for alarm.
But right now there is a sign that banelings and zerg arent all you thought they were. So back off. Balance is a fragile thing.
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On March 21 2010 02:13 Sfydjklm wrote:
all im saying stop fucking with the balance. stop jumping the gun.
demuslim surely must remember the days of night elf AoW's.
Now that was bad. This, this is nothing.
Sure if dimaga kept on freerolling everything there would be a cause for alarm.
But right now there is a sign that banelings and zerg arent all you thought they were. So back off. Balance is a fragile thing.
Do you own a BETA key? I think I'm pretty good in TvZ (really good in TvZ in Broodwar) and my micro and macro are also really good; but against Zerg you just feel like you give up either mapcontrol or take huge risks pressuring Zerg.
You need to pressure Zerg to make him spend his larva-injection on units rather than drones, but the lack of scouting which is due to the speed of zerglings won't allow you to safely pressure him without getting punished. You can counter 1 mix of Zerg units pretty well, while they can totally change their complete army composition and still own. Zerg doesn't have units that deal extra damage to light/armored (besides banelings) so they can go all combinations of units they want to and would still end up with a nearly equal damage output.
When I change my unit composition to lots of marauders, he'll add more hydras. If I add more Marines, he'll add more banelings or roaches..
Zerg right now is overpowered and there's no way to talk away their advantage. Terran can win, thats correct, but Terran needs to pull off a miracle in scouting, micro and macro to keep up with an equal skilled Zerg which may not be the fact in an competetive RTS.
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T>>>Z IMO. I don't know of any top zergs who can compete with competent Ts. You guys are just playing wrong I think.
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On March 21 2010 02:51 Maynard wrote:
T>>>Z IMO. I don't know of any top zergs who can compete with competent Ts. You guys are just playing wrong I think.
Every Terran is playing wrong, .... right.
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Every advantage in this Matchup is definiately T's. Zerg has map control for maybe the first 6 mins, but after that Marine and Mauruaders are out- our only counter to this being Broodlords. We can survive w. roaches/hydras/banelings but none of these are a hard counter to a competent T. (any T dieing to Banelings is terribad, unless they are speedupgraded AND on creep)
By the way hellions counter hydras/lings/banelings. To the person who said it up there. If YOURS dont, its cause your bad. Hellions actually do a crapload of damage against hydras, and cost less. Hellions do light damage = more damage against hydras. Dont just A-move ur hellions, and U would see yours killing hydras too.
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On March 21 2010 02:52 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 02:51 Maynard wrote:
T>>>Z IMO. I don't know of any top zergs who can compete with competent Ts. You guys are just playing wrong I think. Every Terran is playing wrong, .... right.
No. You guys are. Every game I see or am involved in, if the T plays correctly, the Z gets rolled amazingly hard. I'm not talking gold level players I'm talking #1 ladder Zs.
Zerg cannot expand without having a considerable force. Fast expansions are not plausible. Zerg cannot deal with the Marine/Marauder swarm until T3.
The only way Z wins is if the T wants to have fun with hellions, tanks, dropships, reapers, etc.
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On March 21 2010 02:25 G.s)NarutO wrote:
You need to pressure Zerg to make him spend his larva-injection on units rather than drones, but the lack of scouting which is due to the speed of zerglings won't allow you to safely pressure him without getting punished. You can counter 1 mix of Zerg units pretty well, while they can totally change their complete army composition and still own. Zerg doesn't have units that deal extra damage to light/armored (besides banelings) so they can go all combinations of units they want to and would still end up with a nearly equal damage output.
When I change my unit composition to lots of marauders, he'll add more hydras. If I add more Marines, he'll add more banelings or roaches..
Zerg right now is overpowered and there's no way to talk away their advantage. Terran can win, thats correct, but Terran needs to pull off a miracle in scouting, micro and macro to keep up with an equal skilled Zerg which may not be the fact in an competetive RTS.
Don't talk like zerg has a million of working unit mixes. You allways have the hydralisks as the backbone of your army and then you need something to deal with marines, either banelings or roaches. Thats it. You either go baneling/ling or roach/ling in the early game and add hydras in the midgame. Mutalisks still suck as a fighting unit because they have negative DPS.
Terran on the other hand has plenty of openings. You can go for early banshee harass, 2 port vikings on certain maps, early clifftanks, helion harass and what not.
If you have narrowed your focus down to just marines and marauders, this is not the fault of the game.
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I'm Platinum, #2 in my division with 1 Protoss being in front (not too far) and 10 Zergs follow. You think thats because EVERY Terran is playing wrong style? I'm seriously getting mad at the statements you make, because its just not true.
First of all a fast expansion is very viable, even hatch first even though thats not worth it. The Terran can't punish 2 hatchery with 2 queens and massling/baneling early, because for that you would need stimpack. (Stimpack = 140 seconds) also you need combat shields for marines to make them survive 'banelings' a bit better. Zerg can also research burrow to set baneling traps and Terran can't do anything about it, since you would have to scan and you don't have enough scans to scan the whole way.
(Assuming you talk about a 3 rax push, because the situation you describe can't be from a fast expanding Terran).
The Zerg can also get Lair + Hydras up by the time your 3 rax timing push hits, so just a weak Zerg would die to that. I'm not really sure what Terrans you watched and what Zergs you have in mind, but you are plain wrong and even the top Zergs agree. Its not just Terrans crying.
On March 21 2010 03:00 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 02:25 G.s)NarutO wrote:
You need to pressure Zerg to make him spend his larva-injection on units rather than drones, but the lack of scouting which is due to the speed of zerglings won't allow you to safely pressure him without getting punished. You can counter 1 mix of Zerg units pretty well, while they can totally change their complete army composition and still own. Zerg doesn't have units that deal extra damage to light/armored (besides banelings) so they can go all combinations of units they want to and would still end up with a nearly equal damage output.
When I change my unit composition to lots of marauders, he'll add more hydras. If I add more Marines, he'll add more banelings or roaches..
Zerg right now is overpowered and there's no way to talk away their advantage. Terran can win, thats correct, but Terran needs to pull off a miracle in scouting, micro and macro to keep up with an equal skilled Zerg which may not be the fact in an competetive RTS. Don't talk like zerg has a million of working unit mixes. You allways have the hydralisks as the backbone of your army and then you need something to deal with marines, either banelings or roaches. Thats it. You either go baneling/ling or roach/ling in the early game and add hydras in the midgame. Mutalisks still suck as a fighting unit because they have negative DPS. Terran on the other hand has plenty of openings. You can go for early banshee harass, 2 port vikings on certain maps, early clifftanks, helion harass and what not. If you have narrowed your focus down to just marines and marauders, this is not the fault of the game.
2 port banshee is not really viable because: Zerg gets hydras up in time, he can even get mutas up in time if he wants to. All tech variations pretty much die to massling/baneling breaks. Hellions die due to their slow attack animation to speedlings / roaches.
Pure muta or muta/ling suck; muta / baneling/ling which you can easily play on the other hand don't suck at all. It rapes. I don't know what your understanding of the game is or what your skilllevel and macro/micro abilities are, but if you have enough banes (speed+on creep if possible(defensive position)) you can easily shred a huge marine/marauder army.
I agree that Roach/Hydra alone is not too strong and I'm pretty aware that Zerg has a hard time beating Marine/Marauder/Medivac with just Hydra/Roach. If you add banelings (12+++) Terran on the other hand is pretty much done, you can micro as much as you want because AS ALREADY MENTIONED banelings DEAL DAMAGE EVEN WHEN YOU KILL THEM before they hit.
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On March 21 2010 03:03 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I'm Platinum, #2 in my division with 1 Protoss being in front (not too far) and 10 Zergs follow. You think thats because EVERY Terran is playing wrong style? I'm seriously getting mad at the statements you make, because its just not true.
First of all a fast expansion is very viable, even hatch first even though thats not worth it. The Terran can't punish 2 hatchery with 2 queens and massling/baneling early, because for that you would need stimpack. (Stimpack = 140 seconds) also you need combat shields for marines to make them survive 'banelings' a bit better. Zerg can also research burrow to set baneling traps and Terran can't do anything about it, since you would have to scan and you don't have enough scans to scan the whole way.
(Assuming you talk about a 3 rax push, because the situation you describe can't be from a fast expanding Terran).
The Zerg can also get Lair + Hydras up by the time your 3 rax timing push hits, so just a weak Zerg would die to that. I'm not really sure what Terrans you watched and what Zergs you have in mind, but you are plain wrong and even the top Zergs agree. Its not just Terrans crying.
Scout. See hatchery at expansion. Make a bunker out of hatchery site range. Send all your early marines and 5 SCVS. I dont see that hatch ever standing. You're talking about all tech counters and I'm talkin about some brute force SCV/Marines.
Sure if you take the SCV/Marine rush out of your arsenal because its cheesy it makes things different.
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Iraq1230 Posts
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On March 21 2010 03:06 Maynard wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 03:03 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I'm Platinum, #2 in my division with 1 Protoss being in front (not too far) and 10 Zergs follow. You think thats because EVERY Terran is playing wrong style? I'm seriously getting mad at the statements you make, because its just not true.
First of all a fast expansion is very viable, even hatch first even though thats not worth it. The Terran can't punish 2 hatchery with 2 queens and massling/baneling early, because for that you would need stimpack. (Stimpack = 140 seconds) also you need combat shields for marines to make them survive 'banelings' a bit better. Zerg can also research burrow to set baneling traps and Terran can't do anything about it, since you would have to scan and you don't have enough scans to scan the whole way.
(Assuming you talk about a 3 rax push, because the situation you describe can't be from a fast expanding Terran).
The Zerg can also get Lair + Hydras up by the time your 3 rax timing push hits, so just a weak Zerg would die to that. I'm not really sure what Terrans you watched and what Zergs you have in mind, but you are plain wrong and even the top Zergs agree. Its not just Terrans crying. Scout. See hatchery at expansion. Make a bunker out of hatchery site range. Send all your early marines and 5 SCVS. I dont see that hatch ever standing. You're talking about all tech counters and I'm talkin about some brute force SCV/Marines. Sure if you take the SCV/Marine rush out of your arsenal because its cheesy it makes things different.
Check MorroW vs DIMAGA, as long as you don't touch Zergs economy / the queen he can also lose his expansions and he can still fight back easily, because YOU lose a lot more mining time in the process of rushing. Also a good Zerg will notice if your scv moves out of range and builds a bunker.
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EPT
