EPTnada had perfect micro wiht his banshees he always was able to colak at the last second and stuff so why should he be able to do it when the other koreans are not? or rather why shouldnt the other koreans be able to micro as well as he did at the same conditions
On the topic of NA-KR lag... - Page 16
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
nada had perfect micro wiht his banshees he always was able to colak at the last second and stuff so why should he be able to do it when the other koreans are not? or rather why shouldnt the other koreans be able to micro as well as he did at the same conditions | ||
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kratos-23
303 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:20 sVnteen wrote: did you see the TLO vs NaDa match? nada had perfect micro wiht his banshees he always was able to colak at the last second and stuff so why should he be able to do it when the other koreans are not? or rather why shouldnt the other koreans be able to micro as well as he did at the same conditions has been answered numerous times, the ping in the oGs house is relatively good. | ||
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Crt
247 Posts
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Wazabo
Italy124 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:08 Genome852 wrote: Stutter stepping is about 100 times more difficult when you are playing on a latency you aren't used to. Also, the connection between the US and EU is SIGNIFICANTLY better than between US and KR, atleast on my line. (I'm talking 200-300 ms difference). And this was before the Earthquake, though I'm not sure if that affected the routing. That's not true, depends from which part of europe to which part of US. I guess the european servers are in germany. UK <--> Est coast is really nice. Ukraine <--> West coast is terrible. As I said in a previous post, in my opinion Europeans and Americans are generally used to a higher latency. I'm pretty sure that White Ra plays with a 100ms latency on the european servers all the time. While the koreans are used to their almost lan latency. | ||
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
On March 28 2011 00:59 R1CH wrote: This two second lag that keeps getting brought up is an obvious exaggeration, the game would freeze to sync if there was really that much latency involved. While I can't speak for every player, I know the connection from New York to Korea is 240ms. Bnet US is in California, so subtract 70ms from this for approximate good condition Bnet US to KR latency. Please stop with the hyperbole. Regarding the earthquake that people think has affected connections, it is true that some routes were affected and the re-routing was less than optimal, causing 600+ms latency over affected routes. To the best of my knowledge, the affected routes were only affected for a period of several days shortly after the quake, during which time no TSL games were played. In addition, 600ms is borderline unplayable and would have hopefully been brought up during any testing. With this and Jinro's post, how is this thread even still around? The people that know most about the issue, both from a players perspective AND a technical perspective have unequivocally weighed in on the same side. Thats enough for me, and should be enough for anybody else except maybe boxer's girlfriend(I have heard enough about boxer's girlfriend to last me the rest of my life jesus christ). Can someone also translate this to korean and post on the KR community threads about this issue? Maybe R1CH's voice wont have as much weight over there, but he is a TSL tech-wizard extremely well-placed to understand the issues at hand. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:25 zeru wrote: No, RTS games are not lag dependant like fps games, not even close, do you even remember the AoE days, hell, even SC1 days? I remember playing sc1 on my 56K and then trying quake 1. Lol @ whoever would compare the 2 ^^ On topic, thx jinro for setting things straight. Also I was wondering, @ IEM, was ACE playing from KR? | ||
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BlackAut
Austria58 Posts
On March 28 2011 18:35 Douillos wrote: I remember playing sc1 on my 56K and then trying quake 1. Lol @ whoever would compare the 2 ^^ On topic, thx jinro for setting things straight. Also I was wondering, @ IEM, was ACE playing from KR? At the recent IEM, all Players were on the stage, rewatch it - its really worth it. + Show Spoiler + Even 3 participating Koreans take top3 and 4th was moonglade with an amazing performance | ||
MasterOfChaos
Germany2896 Posts
Some Latency values in Starcraft 1 LAN had a latency of about 210ms. And micro worked very well. So nobody should complain. Battle.net on low had about 450ms delay. The game was still playable at that latency. But you had to get used to it. Even when you were used to it, it made micro more difficult. Some of the more timing sensitive micro tricks might not work anymore. Battle.net on extra high had about 900ms delay. Micro becomes close to impossible at this point. In SC2 the latency has a lower bound of the ping from you to the battle.net server you play on. i.e. what counts is a round trip between you and the server. Your opponent's latency doesn't matter. In practice it will be a bit higher than the ping since it has to wait for the next game-frame to start in order to incorporate the command and needs to compensate for variances in the time the packet travel. So if Koreans have a ping of up to 500ms to the US battle.net server they should be able to play decently provided they practice a bit with that latency. Still 500ms vs 200ms is a significant disadvantage. Below 250ms they shouldn't complain. Perhaps some TL member from Korea can measure the delay when playing on the US server, just like sonuvbob did for SC1. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 28 2011 18:19 m3rciless wrote: With this and Jinro's post, how is this thread even still around? The people that know most about the issue, both from a players perspective AND a technical perspective have unequivocally weighed in on the same side. Thats enough for me, and should be enough for anybody else except maybe boxer's girlfriend(I have heard enough about boxer's girlfriend to last me the rest of my life jesus christ). Can someone also translate this to korean and post on the KR community threads about this issue? Maybe R1CH's voice wont have as much weight over there, but he is a TSL tech-wizard extremely well-placed to understand the issues at hand. This is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. Boxers girlfriend twittered about lag, someone mentioned that Nestea was upset by the latency and so on. Seems like the ping varies alot depending on provider. I can attest to that being quite common as a neighbor and me both played on the same WoW server yet i had 500+ ping and disconnects while he had >50 ping, and our traffic was only routed between sweden and the middle of europe. We had different providers and one router in my path to the server was faulty and caused the lag, while my friend had a different path. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
No one can claim that the GSL has lag issues, and the foreigners are still doing just fine against the koreans. I'm not down playing the lag here, I've played on US from EU and its definately not the same, the connection from KR are worse in general, and so yeah i can see it making a difference to them. I can't however see how the lag is all it is, MC is considered to be the best player in the world atm, he won pretty easy, he practiced a strat that didn't need lan latency micro. If the other koreans didn't think ahead and use strats that didn't require the insane micro you can achieve with low latency, then they didn't prepare properly. More over, you can always claim lag as an issue, we really don't know... we aren't the ones playing. Its perfectly possible that the koreans thought they would walk it anyways and were surprised by how good the foreigners actually are, they then blame the lag because after realising this fact, found themselves unprepared and unable to play at their absolute best because of the latency. Boxer, NaDa and MC all won, MC convincingly, Nada with amazing micro (you can't beat TLO if latency is affecting your micro). Boxer still won even with "2 seconds" of lag, which i dont believe for a second. If they had the option to go to the oGs house, then why not take it? I thought most of the pro teams were based around seoul? I can understand them not taking the option if they live a couple hours away, but surely there is a PC bang nearby with good KR->US internet? If i were playing a tourney on the KR server the first thing I would do is find out where i can get a VPN for a day to give me the best connection possible, with the money behind these korean sc2 teams they could surely invest in a tunnel to the US server to make their latency issues less of an issue? I'd love to see the koreans compete outside of KR more, if the lag really is this much of an issue, then spending a few dollars a month on a VPN tunnel is surely cost effective and smart for their furure prospects? edit: I would also understand the lag whine if the foreigners were winning from behind, but most of the time they had more units, more bases and better upgrades..... no amount of micro wins that battle. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On March 28 2011 18:19 m3rciless wrote: With this and Jinro's post, how is this thread even still around? The people that know most about the issue, both from a players perspective AND a technical perspective have unequivocally weighed in on the same side. Thats enough for me, and should be enough for anybody else except maybe boxer's girlfriend(I have heard enough about boxer's girlfriend to last me the rest of my life jesus christ). Can someone also translate this to korean and post on the KR community threads about this issue? Maybe R1CH's voice wont have as much weight over there, but he is a TSL tech-wizard extremely well-placed to understand the issues at hand. Just because prominent figures on TL state certain things doesn't make those things the be-all end-all of the situation. Try thinking for yourself instead of just jumping on what other people say. It's been stated numerous times that the oGs-TL house seems to have a much better connection for KR-NA than other team houses. This is evidenced by how well oGs players are doing in the online tournaments (obviously, they are also very skillful, but so are other teams like Prime and IM whose members haven't been doing as well in online tournaments, and you can see noticeablely slower/sloppier play from those players while oGs players seem to be playing crisply and microing well as things should be) I'm assuming Jinro's post was based off of his experience at the oGs-TL house, so his post did indeed clarify that any oGs player playing wouldn't be affected much by lag, and indeed it shows - MC's good micro against Ciara, NaDa's good banshee micro against TLO. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't say much of anything about the situation for players like MVP, BoxeR, or Nestea. Indeed, Nestea was reportedly angry about his lag problems, and I don't think he'd just make that up to save face (though you can paint Nestea as a whiny loser if you're that determined to tell yourself that lag wasn't an issue...) Try looking at reality and weighing evidence for yourself to make up your mind on things. The statements from prominent TL figures, while helpful, are only pieces of the full picture. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
In any competition, you want the participants to compete under equal conditions (and by equal, I mean EQUAL). This whole latency issue threatens to compromise that, and taint an otherwise great tournament. If both Nestea and Goody were lagging at 500 ms or more, for example, although it's not ideal for either player, it's still equal. The better player will win regardless, and we move on. If it's 500ms vs 250ms, however, now the game's tilted towards the less laggy player, because he can respond to changes in the game faster than the other. Shrugging it off like this and saying that it's no big deal is, in my opinion, the wrong approach to this problem. It's the fundamental job of the tournament organizers and Blizzard to provide each player with equal opportunities to win. Just brushing it off like this might have the effect of blowing the problem out of proportions, especially in Korea. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On March 28 2011 21:02 jpak wrote: My 2 cents: In any competition, you want the participants to compete under equal conditions (and by equal, I mean EQUAL). This whole latency issue threatens to compromise that, and taint an otherwise great tournament. If both Nestea and Goody were lagging at 500 ms or more, for example, although it's not ideal for either player, it's still equal. The better player will win regardless, and we move on. If it's 500ms vs 250ms, however, now the game's tilted towards the less laggy player, because he can respond to changes in the game faster than the other. Shrugging it off like this and saying that it's no big deal is, in my opinion, the wrong approach to this problem. It's the fundamental job of the tournament organizers and Blizzard to provide each player with equal opportunities to win. Just brushing it off like this might have the effect of blowing the problem out of proportions, especially in Korea. I kind of feel like letting the KR players choose whether or not to play at the oGs house was a mistake, since when they opted to play at their own team houses they seemed to experience lag issues. Maybe if we invite non-oGs KR players to the next TSL, it should be made clear that playing at the oGs house is a requirement or something, to ensure better connections. | ||
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PHILtheTANK
United States1834 Posts
On March 28 2011 20:38 HolyArrow wrote: Just because prominent figures on TL state certain things doesn't make those things the be-all end-all of the situation. Try thinking for yourself instead of just jumping on what other people say. It's been stated numerous times that the oGs-TL house seems to have a much better connection for KR-NA than other team houses. This is evidenced by how well oGs players are doing in the online tournaments (obviously, they are also very skillful, but so are other teams like Prime and IM whose members haven't been doing as well in online tournaments, and you can see noticeablely slower/sloppier play from those players while oGs players seem to be playing crisply and microing well as things should be) I'm assuming Jinro's post was based off of his experience at the oGs-TL house, so his post did indeed clarify that any oGs player playing wouldn't be affected much by lag, and indeed it shows - MC's good micro against Ciara, NaDa's good banshee micro against TLO. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't say much of anything about the situation for players like MVP, BoxeR, or Nestea. Indeed, Nestea was reportedly angry about his lag problems, and I don't think he'd just make that up to save face (though you can paint Nestea as a whiny loser if you're that determined to tell yourself that lag wasn't an issue...) Try looking at reality and weighing evidence for yourself to make up your mind on things. The statements from prominent TL figures, while helpful, are only pieces of the full picture. This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
After seeing the games today i think the top players from each hemispere are pretty close in skill and ability. The biggest differnece i can see is that the Koreans like to go for the "fast kill" and try to end the game within 8 mins with cheese /timing attack , Where as the "foreigners" like to macro heavy and take it to mid/late game. The bigger maps are really starting to make SC2 evolve into entertaining games which is good for spectators , which is whats its about isnt it. After all who wants to watch 8 min all ins like a lot of the previous GSL finals. | ||
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Fawkes
Canada1935 Posts
On March 28 2011 22:11 PHILtheTANK wrote: This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions. Wasn't there lag noticeable in Boxer's G2? The game where he proxied his marauder push, I was kinda expecting Boxer to take some probes down with him if he was going to lose those retreating marauders anyways. I guess we could say it was a player mistake then, which I find slightly hard to believe, as it is Boxer...he would micro anything. | ||
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
but in these weeks the non-korean players adapted very fast to this builds, now they play them, too (e.g. socke), and know how to counter them. to be honest, sc1 was never very popular outside from korea, EU/NA rather played cs, wc3 and this sort of games, but not sc1. this has changed with sc2, its the online game no1 worldwide. things develop much faster in EU/NA, because there are many more players and tournaments. The head start korea had because of their sc1 experience is gone now, as we see. and its not about lag, just look at the GSL WC atm. Makes sense, doesnt it? SC2 is no magic, its a game where you get good at when you got talent and experience. and these things are on par all over the world. | ||
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Lint42
United States17 Posts
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Cadgers
United States514 Posts
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