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I do feel that this should have been brought up later, after the conclusion of TSL 3 for instance. TSL 3 took the initiative as the first major, truly international tournament in a international scene that is booming too fast for anyone(without huge financial backing, e.g. gsl wc) to have carried it out perfectly. It doesn't do justice to all the effort that has been put into making TSL 3 happen.
That being said, as an owner of a SEA account, I've played hundreds of games on both NA and SEA servers from Singapore which I would propose is quite a similar situation. The difference between NA and SEA is very evident, it truly does have detrimental effects on your play. However, as many other have brought up before in this thread, it's all about your comfort level while playing, and you can certainly get used to the difference. This was the case for myself and I would assume many others, especially those in NA who compete seriously and have account on the KR servers. I certainly believe that whatever flashy "stutterstep" micro, amongst others, that the audiences ogle at are still very much doable with practice. It really all comes down to whether the players are willing to devote time to it.
Then again, maybe we will soon see an era where pro-gamers are flown around the world weekly, and we are treated to the highest level of competition. But until then, we should all be grateful to the efforts TL and other event organisers have invested for our entertainment.
My 2 & a half cents 
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Braavos36402 Posts
On March 28 2011 23:09 Fawkes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 22:11 PHILtheTANK wrote:
This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions. Wasn't there lag noticeable in Boxer's G2? The game where he proxied his marauder push, I was kinda expecting Boxer to take some probes down with him if he was going to lose those retreating marauders anyways. I guess we could say it was a player mistake then, which I find slightly hard to believe, as it is Boxer...he would micro anything.
I don't think pointing to a particular thing in the games is proof theres lag. Players make mistakes. By your logic Nada had more lag in the GSL WC games than in his games in TSL, because his banshee control was better vs TLO than against TT1. If the Nada vs TT1 game happened in TSL you'd be making the same argument about "finding it hard to believe Nada lost a banshee to TT1". I think what fans need to get over is that certain players are infallible and that any mistake in TSL must be lag. That's just not the case. Players can make mistakes, even MC :p
That's not to say lag doesn't exist, it does. It's just not everything.
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On March 27 2011 09:55 Seiyu wrote:
The most USERS from here don't understand the huge difference that LAG does.
Here in Brazil the delay is like 150ms, because the servers are actually in USA, you'll know what's is lag when you press a key to update your building but it's1.5 sec to it actually happen's, then you'll move your camera to another place but when you back to your building you'll see that ...
1.5 seconds is 1500 ms, not 150.
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if its true that the servers are located in usa, does NA players playing in KR server have same latency as KR players playing in NA??
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France13023 Posts
On March 30 2011 05:59 JuJuZerg wrote:
if its true that the servers are located in usa, does NA players playing in KR server have same latency as KR players playing in NA??
No. The latency is not only affected by the distance (but longer distance usually means more latency) but also by the quality of the lines and other stuffs. So its affected by the provider as well (on a lesser extent)
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On March 29 2011 19:30 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 23:09 Fawkes wrote:On March 28 2011 22:11 PHILtheTANK wrote:
This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions. Wasn't there lag noticeable in Boxer's G2? The game where he proxied his marauder push, I was kinda expecting Boxer to take some probes down with him if he was going to lose those retreating marauders anyways. I guess we could say it was a player mistake then, which I find slightly hard to believe, as it is Boxer...he would micro anything. I don't think pointing to a particular thing in the games is proof theres lag. Players make mistakes. By your logic Nada had more lag in the GSL WC games than in his games in TSL, because his banshee control was better vs TLO than against TT1. If the Nada vs TT1 game happened in TSL you'd be making the same argument about "finding it hard to believe Nada lost a banshee to TT1". I think what fans need to get over is that certain players are infallible and that any mistake in TSL must be lag. That's just not the case. Players can make mistakes, even MC :p That's not to say lag doesn't exist, it does. It's just not everything.
Yeah, it was hilarious when people were like, MVP LOST A MARINE OMG LOOK AT THAT LAG. Then when he lost a reaper they were like, that would NEVER happen at GSL. Only bronze league kids lose reapers.
Then when Nada lost that banshee at the Korea vs World, that was the first thing I began to think about. It's funny how defensive people can get about why their favorite player lost, and the excuses just start flowing.
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To bad SC2 doesn't always play with 150-200ms. Blizz should have made system so that if you have for instance 75ms the server would put an additional 75ms delay on everything so that unless you go over that 150-200 whatever limit blizz could set it would be the same for everyone. Yes the game would feel slow at first but as Jinro pointed out it's something you get used to.
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Thank you, Jinro, for explaining wht was on everyone's minds!
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Anyone know how the NASL will deal with these latency issues, since there are Koreans, Euros, and NAs in the league?
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I suggested that they make all the Koreans play at the oGs-TL house, though that may be asking for a lot since Kelly's post indicated that that could easily be a trip that takes 2+ hours...
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On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it".
Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that.
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I think what a lot of players in NA don't realize is how playing from another country across the globe is actually a huge disadvantage. It's not just Starcraft2, try any other online game, you will lag so much everything has a huge delay.
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On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that.
Players make mistakes. It's not always lag.
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I have read many of the post in this thread not all and i dont know if this belongs here. Me and a friend were talking about the tsl and he believes the koreans r far ahead of the rest of the world i disagree. The koreans are better in general but that is because the average korean on the ladder is better then the average na or eu player that is a known fact for now. As my friend pointed out from bw days that there was snipers sent out to beat certain players like, Stork, Bisu, Flash, Jaedong and so on. The foreigners have many vods to watch and tweek their builds like the snipers did to the best counter with lag playing an effect and the ability to tweek builds gave the foreigners an advantage. I still believe that the koreans are not that far ahead of the foreigners and with time and the new leagues starting up in NA i expect that we will all be on the same level n the near future.
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do you think that practicing in one region's latency will take away from of the benefits from practicing in another region's latency? for instance if the korean's need to practice for GSL and also have some europe online tournaments coming up, would practicing on europe region affect their skill on Korea region? if so, how would you deal with this?
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On March 30 2011 16:20 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that. Players make mistakes. It's not always lag.
Yeah, it's hard to tell. TSL3, being an online tournament with serious lag problems, is always going to have its results called into question.
At least we know now that the foreigners can bring it. Can Goody bring it to Nestea? Not so sure about that. But at least foreigners in general can bring it.
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What do you guys think about that:
I feel the game is a LOT like poker. You have to gamble very often and u just cant prepare vs every timing or all in. I feel like 5 years later we will still not have players like flash who are just better than everyone.
sc2 skill ceiling is not high enough and there are too many random factors ass well...
I dont want to give a specific example.
I just want to know if other guys feel the same way especially better players?
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It honestly sucks that issues like these have to be addressed, even by players in the tournament, in this case Jinro.
But in terms of smart, healthy discussion, why are people so quick to downplay lag issues? Practising more to get used to latency still doesn't account for fair play when your opponent can react a split second faster to dodge that one or two hits.
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I'm going to sum up Jinro's comments for any Blizzard employee reading this:
1) ALLOW US TO USE THINGS LIKE HAMACHI SERVERS TO PLAY
2) GIVE US LAN SETTINGS
T_T
Yes players do make mistakes. Sometimes many mistakes. However, on high and extra high latency the reaction/response time units make compared to when you made the keystrokes is very noticeable.
Precisely Xpace.
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Two things:
1) The GOM World stuff going on now proves that foreigners can compete with Koreans.
2) Watching the APM tabs shown at the beginnings of the games, you can see it drop sharply or to 0 several times for some players. I don't know if that's "lag" but for some players the pause was 2 game seconds or so. Though most games seemed fine, here is a list of games that I thought was particularly bad:
oGsMC Set 1
FruitDealer Set 1
LiquidJinro Set 1 * one of the worst actually, and he is not complaining
IMMVP Set 2
LiquidRet Set 3
Though maybe they are just scratching their noses?
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EPT
