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On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote:
Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer.
^
Did you just say players that practise 10 hours a day and give up their "normal" life to pursue their passion are cocky/lazy/stupid just because they played from their own team house and maybe not travel 2 hours away to the oGs house?
It's attitude like this that seriously peeves me off.
Yes it is a huge tournament and I'm sure every single Korean players who were playing were very happy and excited to join.
If you really watch the games, you can clearly see when a player gets outplayed (base on build orders and timing pushes : cue: Nestea / mvp's game etc) and when a player obviously could not micro due to the latency problems(cue, boxer's game, and a few other games where the movement of the army was weird based on previous games the way the Korean players play on GSL)
This also brings back the point of the NASL argument where even if some of the Korean players are invited, they might not want to play because they know there will be issues with latency.
All these assumptions etc, even though the Koreans lost, not one of them whined or made a big fuss saying they lost because of lag. Pretty sure they accepted the lost pretty gracefully and are still glad they were invited to TSL.
You saying they are cocky lazy stupid ... makes me so angry. Sorry.
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On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote:
Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions.
This, and the fact that SC2 is a new game brings a lot of uncertainty. I think you nailed it with the preparation. Lag or whatnot is not really of the question, since as Jinro said, you can easily be accustomed to it if you practiced.
On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote:
Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. this can also be seen as oGs players seemed to have minimal lag at FXOpen yesterday (for example Zenio/Supernova seemed to have no lag) while the prime players continuously got drop screens and lags many of the games. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything
And for the love of god, please stop accusing other members of generalizing when you're saying "I heard". That's a very hypocrite statement and it's not very nice saying others are ignorant.
We are a community, not a bunch of high-school rivals. No need to throw punches.
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On March 28 2011 12:11 kellymilkies wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote:
Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer. ^ Did you just say players that practise 10 hours a day and give up their "normal" life to pursue their passion are cocky/lazy/stupid just because they played from their own team house and maybe not travel 2 hours away to the oGs house? It's attitude like this that seriously peeves me off. Yes it is a huge tournament and I'm sure every single Korean players who were playing were very happy and excited to join. If you really watch the games, you can clearly see when a player gets outplayed (base on build orders and timing pushes : cue: Nestea / mvp's game etc) and when a player obviously could not micro due to the latency problems(cue, boxer's game, and a few other games where the movement of the army was weird based on previous games the way the Korean players play on GSL) This also brings back the point of the NASL argument where even if some of the Korean players are invited, they might not want to play because they know there will be issues with latency. All these assumptions etc, even though the Koreans lost, not one of them whined or made a big fuss saying they lost because of lag. Pretty sure they accepted the lost pretty gracefully and are still glad they were invited to TSL. You saying they are cocky lazy stupid ... makes me so angry. Sorry.
^ Kelly's post = QFT.
The difference between 100ms and 500ms is an extremely large gap, even if some people don't believe in it. Although it isn't applicable in all instances of SC2, some periods of gameplay where instant reaction is needed just doesn't help.
Look at it this way. What can a player achieve with a reaction time of say 0.2 seconds? A lot. Delay the stimulus by 200ms (say from the EU player to NA server) then delay it by 500ms (NA to KR player) then delay it again by 200ms due to reaction. A whole second is lost. I could go further, but it doesn't need to be explained.
Play ANY FPS online and you will instantly see the difference between 50ms and 100ms. Why can't some people see there is a big gap between 100ms and even 300ms?
But grats to the Korean players who are gracious in their defeats, and grats to the players that beat them.
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If it's the korean ISP's fault i really hope all the teams switch to the better one. Then we might see better games, from what i've read TLO vs Nada was way better than saturdays games?
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On March 28 2011 14:18 karpo wrote:
If it's the korean ISP's fault i really hope all the teams switch to the better one. Then we might see better games, from what i've read TLO vs Nada was way better than saturdays games?
Yeah, it seemed that NaDa wasn't suffering from much/any lag so all the play overall looked very crisp and high-level. Combine that with TLO's crazy strategies and innovative play and you have a pretty cool series.
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What I can say though, is that TSL players were offered the opportunity to delay their game and play on a different connection if they found the lag to be unplayable. As a last resort, we offered anyone to play at the oGs-TL house where we had confirmation from TL players that the lag was definitely in the playable range. Of the Korean players, only Nada (who does not normally reside at the oGs house) chose to exercise this option. Everyone else showed up, and just played their game.
This is key, we have to emphasize the point that options were offered to players. So regardless of what occurred, they had options.
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On March 28 2011 14:37 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 14:18 karpo wrote:
If it's the korean ISP's fault i really hope all the teams switch to the better one. Then we might see better games, from what i've read TLO vs Nada was way better than saturdays games? Yeah, it seemed that NaDa wasn't suffering from much/any lag so all the play overall looked very crisp and high-level. Combine that with TLO's crazy strategies and innovative play and you have a pretty cool series.
Yes exactly
especially the Banshee micro in G3.
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On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote:
Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer.
Sorry, but there's no optimum conditions to be attained in an online tournament. A very entertaining show, but draw your conclusions based on even playing fields, where doubt over such cannot exist.
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When Jinro gives this description, is he factoring into things how the post-earthquake lag is outside the oGs house?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 28 2011 14:58 esaul17 wrote:
When Jinro gives this description, is he factoring into things how the post-earthquake lag is outside the oGs house?
No, I didnt and I guess I will have to test it to be able to do so >.< But finding somewhere to connect via KT really shouldnt be hard in Korea...
On March 28 2011 01:53 Wilko wrote:
Is there actually a difference in latency on servers in general? (like is playing EU from EU different to playing KR from KR)
I don't know much about server and latency-stuff, so i'm just curious
KR servers are located in Seoul, and Korea is tiny so I would imagine that KR players in general get even better pings than Europeans/Americans when playing on their own server.
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I didn't watch the games but you can't practice FF'ing with lag -- that kind of FF'ing is more pokerstyle mindgames than FF'ing with low lag, more FPS-aim + timing + skill. So if someone lost because of bad FF's, yeah, blame it on lag. If someone lost a macro game, less likely to blame... however, sentries and ling/muta/bling micro are very lag sensitive so if those particular cases went wrong for koreans, then blaming them for not practicing with lag doesn't seem as feasible.
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TorcH reported that Nestea was pretty mad about the lag after his game, so maybe the lag did affect him pretty badly after all 
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Who would have thought, the real answer is a compromise :O thank you Jinro
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I'm not a big believer that lag was a huge issue for the Koreans, however with the tournament tonight, we will have a great chance to see how foreigners stand on a "even" playing field.
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Good thing is that this will probably be a temporary problem. If the korean pro houses want to compete internationally they will probably switch internet providers after this.
I've thought about a solution from Blizzard for this but i don't know if it's viable.
Here goes: for sanctioned online tournament play they could have players connect to their local battle.net server and have blizzard tunnel their information straight to the equivalent remote b.net server. It shouldn't be a huge investment for blizzard to secure a decently fast and reliable provider across continents. Maybe even allow custom games cross continent using this method. Rated games could be left untouched to keep the US/EU/KR ladders intact.
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Thanks for the clarification.
1. The debate/whines/rebuttals have been was the Korean affected by the latency? Yes.
2. Did it influence their games? Yes
3. Does it mean the foreigners are better skill wise than the Korean because they won? Of course not. It doesn't mean they're worse than the Korean either. Currently indetermined.
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Stutter stepping is about 100 times more difficult when you are playing on a latency you aren't used to.
Also, the connection between the US and EU is SIGNIFICANTLY better than between US and KR, atleast on my line. (I'm talking 200-300 ms difference). And this was before the Earthquake, though I'm not sure if that affected the routing.
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Remember that for any FPS game online, having a low lag/latency is a HUGE priority and a difference in 50ms is also very noticeable, especially in competitive environment.
This is also a problem for people playing in the same country. Imagine how big of a difference that is when the lag goes up to 200-400ms ==>>> HUGE
It affected their games and contributed to their losses. Accept it.
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hehe, yeah include RTS too.
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EPT
