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On the topic of NA-KR lag... - Page 13

Forum Index > PokerStrategy.com TSL3 Forum
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Wilko
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany470 Posts
March 27 2011 16:53 GMT
#241
Is there actually a difference in latency on servers in general? (like is playing EU from EU different to playing KR from KR)
I don't know much about server and latency-stuff, so i'm just curious
AmishNukes
Profile Joined May 2010
United States98 Posts
March 27 2011 17:21 GMT
#242
On March 28 2011 01:46 lowkontrast wrote:
[image loading]

400-450 ping is fine, though borderline, for an RTS.

An FPS, on the other hand...

I checked my ping using pingtest.net and speedtest.net multiple times and rarely got over 300 ping to Korea. I'm also on the east coast, and I believe the connection to Korea goes through the west coast (where most Blizzard stuff is.)
+ Show Spoiler +
Korea Tests:+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading][image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading][image loading]
Local Tests for Reference:+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

Also my jitter was in the 3-4ms range which is the thing that really becomes a problem until your latency is very high. The comparison between my connection and yours is probably alot like how liquid players were saying the connection was viable at the OGs/TL house. It may have been worse other places.
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
March 27 2011 17:31 GMT
#243
On March 28 2011 01:46 lowkontrast wrote:
[image loading]

400-450 ping is fine, though borderline, for an RTS.

An FPS, on the other hand...


With that kind of ping AND pretty high jitter i can see the two second long hickups boxers girlfriend was talking about. As the guy above me stated, maybe that's why some players from korea seem to do alot better than others.
Thurokiir
Profile Joined June 2010
United States779 Posts
March 27 2011 17:31 GMT
#244
Mighty Jinro speaks, we listen. Thank you sir!
Tahts halo dont worry
R1CH
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Netherlands10342 Posts
March 27 2011 17:35 GMT
#245
Pingtest is not a reliable provider for testing your ping as the route to their server is very different to the route to battle.net.
AdministratorTwitter: @R1CH_TL
TL+ Member
Papajan
Profile Joined August 2010
United States15 Posts
March 27 2011 17:42 GMT
#246
Great post. Props to TL for thinking to offer practice NA accounts to KR
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
March 27 2011 17:42 GMT
#247
People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
March 27 2011 17:49 GMT
#248
On March 27 2011 15:00 Comadevil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 14:53 GreEny K wrote:
So what you are saying is that anyone playing someone else on the same server is equal to LAN latency? So US on US = LAN?


Read his post: He didn't say that. He mentioned only Korea. And Korea has one of the best internet infrastructure in the world


That's what my question was, less attitude please. Was wondering if it applies to all servers.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
Mabius
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada323 Posts
March 27 2011 17:52 GMT
#249
On March 28 2011 02:42 citi.zen wrote:
People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.


His force fields were solid?? You sure you watched the same game? At one point when he was attacking QXC's natural you can blatantly see how lag was effecting him as he was trying to forcefield the marauders in half but they moved away and then the 2 force fields for the split went off, do you really think he did that on purpose? lol....
"Every revolution carries within it the seeds of it's own destruction.. and empires that rise will one day fall"
HaruHaru
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States988 Posts
March 27 2011 17:58 GMT
#250
On March 28 2011 02:42 citi.zen wrote:
People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.


Ok the players might have played poorly which resulted in their loss, but people need to understand that lag has a huge affect on gameplay and can't always be prepared for. If you just talk about the delay between telling an scv to go build a building to when it actually moves, then of course that can be prepared for. But as jinro later added, reaction time to forcefields and specific micro tasks during battle are extremely crucial. Players can't see 1 second into the future and predict where the forcefield will land and then move the units 1 second before the forcefield lands to dodge.
Long live BroodWar!
tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
March 27 2011 18:15 GMT
#251
On March 28 2011 00:59 R1CH wrote:
This two second lag that keeps getting brought up is an obvious exaggeration, the game would freeze to sync if there was really that much latency involved. While I can't speak for every player, I know the connection from New York to Korea is 240ms. Bnet US is in California, so subtract 70ms from this for approximate good condition Bnet US to KR latency. Please stop with the hyperbole.

Regarding the earthquake that people think has affected connections, it is true that some routes were affected and the re-routing was less than optimal, causing 600+ms latency over affected routes. To the best of my knowledge, the affected routes were only affected for a period of several days shortly after the quake, during which time no TSL games were played. In addition, 600ms is borderline unplayable and would have hopefully been brought up during any testing.


Guys, R1CH has spoken. He's 100 times more knowledgeable given his expertise and his privileged position than any of us. He just confirmed everything that every single non-drama queen/bandwagoner/reasonable person has been saying for the last week.

As for which, I'm beginning to doubt the common law's reliance on analysis based on the reasonable person, since TL is obviously lacking in those, given that 1) 2000ms latency is absolutely ridiculous - that feels like 15 years or so when you are playing a competitive game (have any of you even counted 2 seconds out loud because it is damn ridiculous to believe this is not a HUGE exaggeration) and 2) there were no games with over 250ms latency because the lag pop-up will appear whenever the latency is over 250ms and is programmed to do so; this is in line with R1CH's analysis.

So we know that the Koreans played with, at most, 250ms latency, which is like an Australian playing on the NA server. Hm, last time I checked, Australians played without incessant bitching. Maybe the Korean professional gamers should have actually prepared for the conditions like any reasonable athlete or taken advantage for each of the extra options graciously extended to them by TL.

Time to STFU imo.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
Let it Raine
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1245 Posts
March 27 2011 19:37 GMT
#252
it sucks that this happens because wins might be slightly undeserved, or if they are deserved, they will be mostly pushed off as though it only happened because it was online.

I wonder how the GOM world tournament will turn out.
Grandmaster Zerg x14. Diamond 1 LoL. MLG 50, Halo 3. Raine.
Chickaboom
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada47 Posts
March 27 2011 20:04 GMT
#253
thank you jinro! these statements were obviously needed from a progamer!
dattebayo!
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
March 27 2011 20:41 GMT
#254
On March 27 2011 23:29 Waxangel wrote:
I don't think this is in any way the final word on the NA-KR lag issue, but it's good to have a balancing opinion from someone who says KR-NA is definitely playable against those who claim it's some incredible disadvantage that makes master leaguers lose to people in silver.

The truth is, we don't know exactly what kind of conditions the players were playing under. We know NA-KR lag can range from quite playable to downright horrendous, but trying to guess where it fell through VODs of a game is fruitless and pointless speculation.

What I can say though, is that TSL players were offered the opportunity to delay their game and play on a different connection if they found the lag to be unplayable. As a last resort, we offered anyone to play at the oGs-TL house where we had confirmation from TL players that the lag was definitely in the playable range. Of the Korean players, only Nada (who does not normally reside at the oGs house) chose to exercise this option. Everyone else showed up, and just played their game.


I appreciate Jinro's making this topic which helps subdue lots of the lag arguments, but I strongly agree with what this post is saying. I've brought it up before and no one really clarified for me: Is Jinro speaking of experience based off of playing on oGs-TL house-quality internet? I've heard quite a few times that oGs-TL house players experience significantly better KR-NA latency conditions than players in other team houses, due to some factor involving ISP, or the way the connection is set up, or something - I forget.

If so, it would make sense why MC's micro seemed spot-on against Ciara in game 1 since he'd be playing with a nice oGs-TL house connection, why SuperNova claimed that his connection felt perfectly fine (since he'd be also enjoying the good oGs-TL house connection) and it would also make sense why some reports conflict with Jinro's in how they make things sound much worse than Jinro is saying. It would explain why MVP made ridiculous mistakes like losing a reaper to probes, and why his kiting seemed so terrible - maybe MVP was playing under worse conditions than Jinro was describing due to the IM house having a worse connection that the oGs-TL house.

It would be nice to have this clarified as I have been curious about this for a while
KaidaN
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia54 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 20:41:58
March 27 2011 20:41 GMT
#255
On March 28 2011 03:15 tyCe wrote:

So we know that the Koreans played with, at most, 250ms latency, which is like an Australian playing on the NA server. Hm, last time I checked, Australians played without incessant bitching. Maybe the Korean professional gamers should have actually prepared for the conditions like any reasonable athlete or taken advantage for each of the extra options graciously extended to them by TL.

Time to STFU imo.


I get more lag to the SEA server than I do to NA and i live in brisbane, how does that work?


Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
March 27 2011 20:42 GMT
#256
Yea, Jinro made some really nice points.

The lag obviously would've played a role in the Korean's play. It's never easy playing under different settings be it hardware or latency; I think it's fair to say that this would've affected their game. At the same time, I think if players are really serious about winning the TSL they should've practiced on the US server and/or learn to adapt. I mean, it's not like every single Korean player played terribly (MC!!!).

At the same time, a lot of those big name players really haven't been doing all that well lately. Slumps? :O
briandawkins
Profile Joined October 2010
United States19 Posts
March 27 2011 21:02 GMT
#257
Thanks for all the posts, Jinro.

But funny to see all the posts simultaneously saying "lag didn't affect the games" and "Koreans should have prepared better for the lag."
chenchen
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1136 Posts
March 27 2011 21:10 GMT
#258
On March 28 2011 02:42 citi.zen wrote:
People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.


" his force fields were solid"

That statement is just straight up wrong.
powerade = dragoon blood
monx
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada1400 Posts
March 27 2011 21:23 GMT
#259
Thanks for clearing that with us Jinro. Was really hoping for a post like this from a pro. Glad you did it. And i agree with all you said. I think koreans weren't too well prepared or didn't care much. I think this will serve as a lesson for some of them and i am pretty sure it will be another story for TSL4
@ggmonx
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
March 27 2011 21:46 GMT
#260
Jinro lays truth with both first hand experience and flawless analysis.
White-Ra fighting!
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