EPTTLO with cattlebruisers!!! Nerdgasms ughghghgh....
Oops, sorry wrong thread haha
On the topic of NA-KR lag... - Page 14
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stepover12
United States175 Posts
TLO with cattlebruisers!!! Nerdgasms ughghghgh.... Oops, sorry wrong thread haha | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
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jazzbassmatt
United States566 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. Yeah I don't thiey fully dismiss all doubts, but they at least show that the idea of koreans playing on NA server is something completely viable | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. That and there were a few other moments that required nearly instant reaction times and he was able to pull it off. | ||
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Namu
United States826 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. this can also be seen as oGs players seemed to have minimal lag at FXOpen yesterday (for example Zenio/Supernova seemed to have no lag) while the prime players continuously got drop screens and lags many of the games. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
I did also read someone saying Nada had actually practiced on the NA server to get used to it, though I'm not sure how much truth there is to that. | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote: sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:04 Jibba wrote: That and there were a few other moments that required nearly instant reaction times and he was able to pull it off. I remember a specific moment where I noticed that: When TLO was landing that viking to snipe the SCV, Nada immediately took it off the CC, and then put it back to work just as the viking took off. It was beautiful. | ||
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
but there might still be lag involoved. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:11 Asha` wrote: Presuming Nada was playing from home and not the oGs house, I wonder if they still share an internet provider? It's been notable lately that the oGs guys have been doing significantly better in online tournaments (TSL & FXOpen) than other Korean players. MKP and a number of the prime players were pretty constantly on the verge of lagging out of games during the FXOpen for instance, while Zenio & SuperNova seemed far stabler. I did also read someone saying Nada had actually practiced on the NA server to get used to it, though I'm not sure how much truth there is to that. NaDa was playing from the oGs house, as per WaxAngel. | ||
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Incanus
Canada695 Posts
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:04 Jibba wrote: That and there were a few other moments that required nearly instant reaction times and he was able to pull it off. I'm not so sure you could say that it is proof of no latency in any KR-US or KR-EU games at all. I think the 2 sec delayed forcefields from Genius and Mvp getting a marine and reaper surrounded by probes would indicate at least some bursts of delay. The lag is understandable when trying to hold an international tournament, it is just too bad because I find it hard to take it seriously when a player like Mvp loses a vital reaper to a probe surround after a 15 nexus... On the other hand, I did think Mvp's and Genius' endgame plays were quite terrible. Mvp was way behind in upgrades and doing these strange bio attacks ( which might very well have been affected by unexpected delays ) and Genius wasn't expanding in the first game and picking some very strange tactics. The lag might throw these players off their game, I'm sure I would be pretty flustered if I lost a reaper to probes myself and subsequent bad play is very likely to follow from being out of your element. These players definately should have practiced on the US ladder to get ready and part of the blame definately lies with them, but they did play with a handicap I'd say, so it is hard to get excited about them losing. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote: 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer. You need to watch the games with good knowledge of how well certain players usually play to be able to more accurately assess whether or not lag seems to be an issue. Like, citing specific instances of lag or lack thereof means nothing, because it's true that lag can sometimes spike. Furthermore, citing instances of a player from KR experiencing no lag also doesn't really help, because it's now becoming apparent that the oGs house has better internet than other team houses. I've gleaned all this from reading various reports from various sources over the time following the controversial day yesterday. Furthermore, it is reasonable to place blame on the other Korean players for not accepting the offer to play from the oGs house. They should have and could have. However, it is ALSO reasonable to conclude that lag did INDEED mar the play of non-oGs Koreans such as Nestea, MVP, and Genius, since they opted to presumably play at their own houses with inferior latency. Furthering such evidence is seeing much slower reaction time and far sloppier micro than usual from those players, as I watched their TSL games and have been following them in the GSL ever since respective emergences in the Korean scene. Just because it's the KR player's faults that they played under laggy conditions doesn't change the fact that the lag cut into their playing ability and thus perhaps produced inaccurate results. Note that inaccurate results doesn't necessarily mean that they would have won (but it's a possibility), it also speaks about how games generally looked and flowed as a whole. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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nufcrulz
Singapore934 Posts
Either this or the oGs house simply does have a better ISP.. However hearing that the other Koreans were offered to go to the oGs house to play, then this is simply not a valid excuse.. Its like two teams going into a football match with each other and the other one decides to play 9 players vs the other team's 11, even though the team knew fully well it could field 11 players. If the other team wins, its still a valid victory and fully deserved.. even if you know that the 9 player team was at a disadvantage Basically what im trying to say is, please stop with the lag whining in the RO16.  | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:29 HolyArrow wrote: You need to watch the games with good knowledge of how well certain players usually play to be able to more accurately assess whether or not lag seems to be an issue. Like, citing specific instances of lag or lack thereof means nothing, because it's true that lag can sometimes spike. Furthermore, citing instances of a player from KR experiencing no lag also doesn't really help, because it's now becoming apparent that the oGs house has better internet than other team houses. I've gleaned all this from reading various reports from various sources over the time following the controversial day yesterday. Furthermore, it is reasonable to place blame on the other Korean players for not accepting the offer to play from the oGs house. They should have and could have. However, it is ALSO reasonable to conclude that lag did INDEED mar the play of non-oGs Koreans such as Nestea, MVP, and Genius, since they opted to presumably play at their own houses with inferior latency. Furthering such evidence is seeing much slower reaction time and far sloppier micro than usual from those players, as I watched their TSL games and have been following them in the GSL ever since respective emergences in the Korean scene. Just because it's the KR player's faults that they played under laggy conditions doesn't change the fact that the lag cut into their playing ability and thus perhaps produced inaccurate results. Note that inaccurate results doesn't necessarily mean that they would have won (but it's a possibility), it also speaks about how games generally looked and flowed as a whole. Just my 2 cents. Fair enough. I understand what you're saying and I kind of agree with you (lag was definitely a factor in MVP vs Adell on Metalopolis). Glad you kind of agree that it's also the players' faults for playing under laggy conditions in the first place though. | ||
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Namu
United States826 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote: 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer. I never said it wasn't the players' fault for not preparing for the lag, but you were just making an ignorant generalization that since there was no lag in Nada's game, there was none in other games. and I corrected it. No idea why you think I'm saying "lag made the players lose and its not their fault bawww"... | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:57 nufcrulz wrote: Im gonna be guessing that of all the Korean players invited, probably only those in oGs took the time to actually practice in the NA server and get use to the lag. Im guessing players for IM etc simply didnt take TL's advice and practice beforehand and assumed that lag wouldnt be a major problem. Either this or the oGs house simply does have a better ISP.. However hearing that the other Koreans were offered to go to the oGs house to play, then this is simply not a valid excuse.. Its like two teams going into a football match with each other and the other one decides to play 9 players vs the other team's 11, even though the team knew fully well it could field 11 players. If the other team wins, its still a valid victory and fully deserved.. even if you know that the 9 player team was at a disadvantage Basically what im trying to say is, please stop with the lag whining in the RO16. I disagree with the idea that just because the loser is at fault for playing under bad conditions that it makes an opponent's win perfectly valid. You can't just say that. At its heart, a tournament is supposed to be about competition on an even playing field, and when the playing field isn't even, even if it's the loser's fault for hindering himself, it doesn't make the winner's victory just as valid as if everything was fair and even. If you want to use the word "valid", I argue that there are different levels of validity. For example, in the games we saw where lag was controversial, you could say that the victories were valid enough. And if, say, the KR players hypothetically played with only one hand, then victories would be even less valid. On the flip side, if the EU and KR players didn't experience any lag whatsoever, the victories would be at the strongest, surest side of the "validity" spectrum. | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
Let's not forget that it took Korea years to dominate BW and they are respected more for a work ethic and practice than rapid strategic evolution. It's in line with history for foreigners to dominate this early in the game. Save excuses for the future if it's really that important to you but don't detract from a players win. Especially such huge important wins. | ||
briandawkins
United States19 Posts
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ShyRamen
United States322 Posts
i am sure there is some heavy lag for some of them and this very well effects the game, sometimes the whole strat is based on micro (like marauder rush) but i guess screwing up here and there for lag, kinda builds up and probably they felt really uncomfortable. yet, i do not think it's a lag matter, some games like qxc vs genius, it's genius screwing several times. i guess it depends from case to case but tbh i am not really a fan of this long-distance gaming tournaments such as TSL, because unfortunately... due to blizzard not taking care of cross-realm play it IS in fact really laggy. I have been playing on EU server a while back (from california) and it has been disgusting. Sure I could beat really low players but then when I had to play similar skilled level players it was SO much harder... sooo.. yeah I am not a big fan of these kinda things. Sure big upsets... but there are so many factors that there is no way to say that AdelScott > MVP and Goody > Nestea. When the koreans played with equal ping like at IEM, they raped everyone so I'd say let's stop making bold assumptions. The skill gap is not HUGE between EU and KR (I'd say more between NA and KR) but for some specific players there is a gap indeed (like MC, MVP, Nestea etc.) We will see how EU/NA players do against KR in korea for this GOM worldwide thing. The lineup for the World seems really strong so hopefully we will do well | ||
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