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On March 27 2011 18:56 Paradice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 18:18 MasterOfChaos wrote:On March 27 2011 08:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
When people talk about latency, it always brings to mind an article or quote I read somewhere, about how what matters the most is really not absolute latency, but rather stability. As long as you can get used to it, its not gonna be too bad for your game I think. I assume you're referring to the article about the AoE netcode: For RTS games, 250 milliseconds of command latency was not even noticed -- between 250 and 500 msec was very playable, and beyond 500 it started to be noticeable. It was also interesting to note that players developed a "game pace" and a mental expectation of the lag between when they clicked and when their unit responded. A consistent slower response was better than alternating between fast and slow command latency (say between 80 and 500 msec) -- in that case a consistent 500 msec command latency was playable, but one that varied was considered "jerky" and hard to use. 1500 Archers on a 28.8: Network Programming in Age of Empires and Beyond Damn it you beat me to it! I love that article. I would also recommend, if anyone is actually interested in learning about how different genres of games communicate with each other (hopefully to shut people up who have been comparing SC2 latency to Counter Strike ?!?), read this article: (the Peer To Peer Lockstep model is relevant for SC2): What every programmer needs to know about game networking
My SC2 vs CS1.6 analogy hold regardless of how the technology actually works. If one side experience lag, low fps, freezing or any other technical problem you can't possibly say that the other side would have won regardless.
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I totally agree with Jinro. The koreans knew that there might be latency problems and could have practised it had they felt that it was a problem. It is really great that they participated in TSL despite the possible problems with latency and the games have been amazingly good!! I think this has been a great opportunity for EU and KR to play against each other and I can't wait to watch more games.
gj team liquid!!
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On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post.Mod note: he wasn't banned for the criticism, he's banned for stating he will be banned. Anytime a user "martyrs" he is automatically banned.
Very good point and I agree with you. I don't think that it's a coincident that Koreans win most LAN events they are invited to.
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Not taking anything away from the foreiners, from but these results fall pretty short of amazing in my opinion. and after watching all of the VOD's i can safetly say that MVP, Nestea and Genius all played completely and utterly terribly. making lots of mistakes, not scouting their opponents enough, not expanding at the right times, sometimes not at all, horrible micro in some situations. not upgrading. It was pretty bad.
What can we see from this? Wether or not lag was key in these games is debateable. you could see the MVP mistakes early game on metalopolis were lag, but it doesnt mean he should have won. they just seem to be playing very badly right now. even in GSL and GSTL they just arent keeping up with what their skill levels once were.
I do believe playing online tournaments is a bad idea though, this is esports. It should be the epitome of gaming. and having a random factor like lag or latency in the game (Even for both players) makes for some pretty lame games imo. Put all of these players on LAN and i believe you'd see much better games from all players. you can tell watching those games that units seem to move slower, and react much slower when micro'd. making kiting more difficult. something most terran units are terrible without.
either way, im pretty dissapointed in the level of play. I have seen Nestea defend early game marine hellion attacks dozens of times, why was this tournament any different? :/
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Aside from the hard data on the actual latency in the matches, which is unavailable, and the ability of organisms to adapt to their environments, I think it is fair to say that players, being imperfect, have different levels of ability, made up by different levels of the abilities underlying those abilities, such that you are able to have the dynamic of different styles making for the uncertainty of picking a victor in a match, even when one of the involved parties is seen to be definitively a player with greater ability.
Having said that, I would like to go further and suggest that the ability to adapt to latency is an ability that players also posses to varying degrees.
In which case you could make the argument that player A would be beat player B nine times out of ten on equal footing, but given a latency issue, are considerably handicapped.
Conversely, a different player may also be able to play at or near their regular ability while encountering latency.
Those are my thoughts on the subject, though I do not want to de-emphasize the importance of practice in different latencies. I make the above considerations assuming an equivalent amount of practice on either side of a comparison between to players for the purposes of lending credence to the said consideration.
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Thank you Jinro for taking time to write something about this situation. Interessting Topic
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Nice write up. Really cool the perspective on lag and that you can minimise it when you practice. I think it's very logical and would agree with it.
Also because many times I've heard when people go to lan with very low latency, they also have a hard time playing because they are used to the internet lag!  Was in an old interview of a quake pro I watched recently. He said his lightning gun, think thats the one with the constant beam you wanna keep on your target at all times, was useless on lan he couldn't do it, he was used to the lag. So even for something so fast and accurate super low lag can be a detriment.
And there are probably some small things with KR having a bit more lag overall but its not a game decider and there is nothing we can do about it. Except invite the koreans to ladder on our servers  Something they most definitely don't really do currently.
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Lag definitely DID affect the games, it was even painfully evident for us, viewers, in some situations. Probably the most when MVP lost marine and reaper to probe surround. I believe noone will argue with me when I say he wouldn't ever make this mistake in lagless game. Same goes for Genius and his late+missplaced forcefields during early game at Xel naga caverns.
The only question is, how much did the lag affect the game. Even though MVP lost marine+reaper early, he still got into commanding position but lost the game nevertheless and there wasn't much he could blame on lag (maybe the crucial engagement when he got forcefielded running at Adel's ramp?). The first game was just pure Adel's domination. Genius' games were similar, there was no actual situation in which you would say "this made him lose the game, if there was no lag, this wouldn't have happened". I mean if you're on 2 bases for whole game or your opponent is maxed with 3-3 upgrades while you have lousy bio army, you just can't blame it on lag.
That being said I think it threw them off their game and when you don't feel comfortable, it's more likely you will make mistakes and bad decissions.
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For me lag had a clear influence on two games : MVP vs Adel game 2 and even more in Genius vs qxc game 3.
The first contains a great deal of unexplicable mismicro, and given how close the game was, I'm pretty sure it had an influence on the result. I think Adel would have won though, he had pretty good strategy prepared, even though his mechanics were sometimes ugly.
The second contains among the worst forcefield and storm I've seen on a pro level in sc2 (I admit I don't watch much though), and I'm pretty sure qxc would have lost that game too, and game 3 might have been up in the air.
It probably influe other games, but not as much, and I think foreigner were quite deserving of their victory anyway.
As for your point about regularity, as someone who is watching a sc2 tournament only because it's TSL, I know you can't influence what blizzard is doing, but I think you've become far too accepting of the situation.
I remember reading a post by R1CH explaing how implementing à 25ms delay in version 1.16 of BW resulted in everybody staying on the version before...
And while your point still stands, I am pretty sure that for things like Jaedong vs Flash muta vs marine micro, even very slight asymetrical latency would have an impact, and possibly decide a good part of the game.
Plus learning some very hard micro stuff on 2-3 different latency sounds ridiculous.
This might be irrelevant to the way sc2 is played and possibly will be played, but honestly, if it really is, quid of sc2 as an esport ?
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Seriously, why do people in this thread still take lag as the decisive factor?
I think no one of you is living in Korea and the greatest part haven't even played EU->KR or NA->KR.
Why do you still stand your point when Jinro clearly says that the latency does not affect the game too much?
It's like arguing in a completly logic mindstream and then the other dude just says "no, it's not". Most people take some action into account and refer the mistake to lag but often don't notice that the players point of view was not at this spot at the time being and therefore the mistake simply can not be connected to latency issues.
This is so stupid. GoOdy and AdelScott played better or were better prepared and as pointed out before, if the Koreans did not play on NA before their TSL matches it was simply their mistake.
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On March 27 2011 19:01 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 18:48 pedduck wrote:
If we going to think of sc2 as a sport, we have to accept this.
Weather condition, server condition, etc etc will have an effect on a game. This is the beauty of it.
This is why football have home and away game. The problem is that one side is being punished more than the other side. If it rains and the field is slippery, it's slippery for both sides. Terrible analogy.
Wtf? That's a terrible post seeing that he gave you a perfect example right in front of you. A home game is generally more favourable than an away game because of familiarity and fan support. The funny thing is that the games weren't even played on a home/away server, but on a neutral server. Despite the very slight difference in extent of lag for Europeans and Koreans, the Koreans failed to prepare for playing on the NA server whether be it inexperience, aloofness or simply not caring enough.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 19:58 Sina92 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post.Mod note: he wasn't banned for the criticism, he's banned for stating he will be banned. Anytime a user "martyrs" he is automatically banned. Very good point and I agree with you. I don't think that it's a coincident that Koreans win most LAN events they are invited to.
Let me just quote myself:
Another thing I want to mention here is that when you lose in slightly laggy settings, and to make it worse, slightly laggy settings that you usually never play in... You are going to blame it on this. You are not going to go "Oh, I was off my game because IIm not used to these conditions and it got in my head".
No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was.
Also, there are things where latency is gonna matter - viking micro is one of them because its so much about response time, force fields another. I havent felt like I lost any other games purely because of lag since then tho, and Im sure if you check my comments you would see that too.
That being said I think it threw them off their game and when you don't feel comfortable, it's more likely you will make mistakes and bad decissions.
This is what I wanted to get at. The lag exists, but this is what actually hurts you the most, and is also the thing you can most easily get used to.
It would be a lie to say that I prepared on NA, but the fact that Ive played lots of clan wars there definitely helped.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 11:13 Maurader wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:10 vdale wrote:On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. he said: No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was. Well good, at least jinro acknowledged how much lag does play a role and doesn't brush it off lightly. I just wasted my ban for nothing then. However, I would like jinro's opinion on lag pre earthquake and post earthquake. As I understand it, the lag was bearable pre earthquake, but has been bad post earthquake and is noticeably laggier.
Not noticed anything, but I havent played enough on NA to tell you for sure.
On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency?
Of course that wasnt latency lol
That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it".
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 09:30 Bleb wrote:
Imho lag issues are noticed the most in genius vs qxc games
I don't think I've ever seen so many missed forcefield. Had he used them better I'm sure xelnaga game would be totally different. (please notice how he lost his first exp... wtf)
Pheonix micro was off, storms were late, unit control was poor...
yes, his gameplan was horrible, upgrades nonexistant and exps awfully late but still lag issues were noticeable.
Clearly he didn't spend much time practicing on NA ladder (if any) but at the end I feel like lag is tainting awesomeness of this tournament. Not by much but with TL we're used to perfection ; ) !
Force field micro is probably one of the most seriously affected abilities yes... Anticipate dodging them gets a bit harder too.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 10:17 mufin wrote:but... but.. that means Koreans aren't better than foreigners... + Show Spoiler +
They are, just not as much as in SC1.
On March 27 2011 10:57 cuppatea wrote:
Is it possible that the lag from the oGs house is less severe than from other team houses, perhaps using other ISP's?
I mean, I'm watching oGsZenio and oGsSuperNova play pretty well in the FXOpen, whereas MVP and MKP are microing their units on the NA server like they're playing SC2 for the first time.
Would the latency you (Jinro) experienced playing against Morrow in the TSL explain MVP's inability to kite slow zealots with marauders or probes with reapers? Or Genius throwing down forcefields seconds after the army he's trying to trap has already retreated?
MVP's micro against Adelscott was SO bad (as in legitimately not even diamond level) that it looked more like "it's impossible to control my units" than "I'm playing with a slightly higher latency than usual."
I doubt it, however all these people yoou mentioned have played on the US server before. Supernova played in the last FXO (and lost pretty early), Zenio has played in US tournaments as far back as the GGI or whatever that was called, the one just after release.
So... I doubt it, probably just them being more used to the lag.
On March 27 2011 09:55 Seiyu wrote:
The most USERS from here don't understand the huge difference that LAG does.
Here in Brazil the delay is like 150ms, because the servers are actually in USA, you'll know what's is lag when you press a key to update your building but it's1.5 sec to it actually happen's, then you'll move your camera to another place but when you back to your building you'll see that nothing happened to your build, because there where another action in the queue and then the instability of the internet, because of the delay, makes a conflict of actions.
I don't want to flame non-korean players, but you guys must know that LAG actually does a lot of difference in an PRO match as the gap between players aren't that mutch as JINRO stated.
I have experienced this happening a bit. It might have actually happened vs MorroW (in the gaame I won), cause I was sure I started a CC then I go back and cant find it anywhere... So yeah, I have had this happen a number of times, where things just dont register because you are going too fast or something, and it sucks, but its not that common.
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Yes, I understand that latency is something you have to get used to in order to be able to deal with it. And yes, I understand that the korean players are to blame if they don't prepare for their games.
But still, it sucks to have the korean players not performing to their best. It's their fault, and they should have known better, but it certainly does take away from how legit the tournament can be seen (in particular if you want the foreigners so smash korean faces^^). Especially after how low tier Code A players absolutely wiped the floor with the foreigners at IEM and it's gonna be even worse if the same happens next week at GSL WC.
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On March 27 2011 22:37 Slunk wrote:
Yes, I understand that latency is something you have to get used to in order to be able to deal with it. And yes, I understand that the korean players are to blame if they don't prepare for their games.
But still, it sucks to have the korean players not performing to their best. It's their fault, and they should have known better, but it certainly does take away from how legit the tournament can be seen (in particular if you want the foreigners so smash korean faces^^). Especially after how low tier Code A players absolutely wiped the floor with the foreigners at IEM and it's gonna be even worse if the same happens next week at GSL WC.
This is the best solution, this is the most legit it gets in cross-continental play right now. Nothing to do about it. If koreans are that much better, see it like a golf handicap . No single tournament says much about skill, consistency is what matter. Practice, preparation and stuff like that is always a factor. Lag can be a factor too. Just live with it, the world isnt a perfect place.
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Firstly, thanks to Jinro for this post, and for responding to peoples posts, really speaks to the stregnth of TL when one of the best players in the world is actively involved in the community.
Speaking from personal experience, i played wc3 with a 2sec delay for years and years, and although i was never a top player by any means, i did okay on the ladder and copped with the delay. I honestly dont think delay is much of and issue at all in RTS gaming. HOWEVER, when you are not used to delay (playing on KR server has almost no delay) and then just go straight into a lot of delay, thats really going to through you off your game.
Also, the game doesnt just involve how you macro/micro and make decisions in game, it is also about any out of game preperations that need to be made. The main one for this is getting used to the lag. As Jinro said, TL offered guest accounts to koreans and warned them there may be delay. So either koreans did this and played for awhile on NA and just got out played, or didnt take the time to get used to the delay and lost partly due to delay. Whichever scenario is the true one (prob differs from player to player), the result of the match was correct.
Coming up we have the GSL, Korea vs the world. will be very interesting to see how this goes! korea vs foreigner in no delay!!!!
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EPT
