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On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that.
I remember a ZvT in one of the open GSLs where Nestea did something that was almost exactly the same as that, flying mutas directly over marines and not turning them to avoid the group effectively losing him the game. Moreover, a couple of tank volleys is way more time than latency would account for...
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On March 30 2011 16:20 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that. Players make mistakes. It's not always lag.
Its not always lag but its not always mistakes either it goes both ways, i am in no way trying to say that every mistake a korean made was because of lag, but there are points were it is quite obvious , had the koreans prepared better im sure the mistakes would be minimal, read boxers interview that came out today he talks about how the difference is negligible if you take the time to practice with it but had you not prepared properly it feels like running with sandbags tied to your legs as he put it. Im sure koreans will be more prepared in the future though i am expecting great things from them at the NASL and im sure they will be far more used to the latency by then.
Also no matter what even after getting used to the lag, if a lag spike occurs its still going to put you at a disadvantage if it happens at the wrong time, but as long as you prepare accordinlgy i think for the most part we will see koreans play the to the standards we are usually used to watching. Regardless of weather lag was a big factor or not in some of the KR EU TSL games i think most would agree that the korean players did not play to their full potential , whatever the reason may be.
Also as we have seen in the best of 3 format so far at the GSLWC besides Dimaga no other player made it through the first round in the KR vs World best of 3's. Im not trying to take anything away from dimaga as he played great but ZVZ is pretty volatile at times kind of like PVP so we will have to see how he does against Hoseo_san, but overall the actual tournament has seemed very one sided in the koreans favor even against players practicing in korea, i was suprised at how well anypro did vs jinro. I dont think anyone is going to deny the fact that although the foreigners have had a very good showing so far koreans are still ahead in terms of skill (not by as much as we may have thought though) as time progresses they will continue to get further ahead unless the western world somehow adapts to korean like training regimen. I think koreans would have done alot better in the TSL had they adapted to the lag (their fault) and prepared against their opponents properly, or if they had home server advantage.
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Seeing the GSL World Tournament results I think we can say that Top Foreigners can compete with Top Koreans, yet the Koreans are still some steps ahead, especially when it counts. And I think we can also agree, that GoOdy doesnt beat Nestea under normal conditions.
While the skill difference between Top Foreigners and Top Koreans isnt nearly as big as it was in SC BW the amount of players on that level still differs immensely. While in Korea there are still lots of players on that level, like Losira, Bomber, Zenio, Squirtle, Supernova, Alicia, just to name a few, I dont see many Foreigners besides the ones attending the tournament who can really play on that level. (under normal conditions)
So for now I think Moon is still right saying: "Koreans own white dudes"
There are exceptions, but the majority of Koreans is still quite a bit ahead of the majority of foreigners.
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On April 01 2011 21:28 Stamper wrote:
Seeing the GSL World Tournament results I think we can say that Top Foreigners can compete with Top Koreans, yet the Koreans are still some steps ahead, especially when it counts. And I think we can also agree, that GoOdy doesnt beat Nestea under normal conditions.
While the skill difference between Top Foreigners and Top Koreans isnt nearly as big as it was in SC BW the amount of players on that level still differs immensely. While in Korea there are still lots of players on that level, like Losira, Bomber, Zenio, Squirtle, Supernova, Alicia, just to name a few, I dont see many Foreigners besides the ones attending the tournament who can really play on that level. (under normal conditions)
So for now I think Moon is still right saying: "Koreans own white dudes"
There are exceptions, but the majority of Koreans is still quite a bit ahead of the majority of foreigners.
no i dont agree ... goody CAN beat nestea under normal conditions ... and wow Huk 1-2 jinro plays rly bad dimaga lost winning position and white-ra lost in pvp his weakest matchup vs 4gate all ins and that you call "being ahead" ? i call it lucky and tsl its the other luck around
the majority of the koreans ... you cant say that its just there are very few nonkoreans playing same amount as the koreans so they are just more ... not better
ps: nestea could not rly have lag issue vs goody cause goody not even damn move out of his base if he no need  its like boxer say it rly doesnt matter
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Not really agreeing with using GSL results to back up these players skill levels. You lose to the eventual champion in RO32 and it makes you look bad when it is not the case. And a BO3 isn't a great skill indicator in itself. With some luck you can beat a better player. The better player may beat you many more times in the long run. All you need is a set of 2-3 games that will work in your favor. This is all due to variation in player performance.
2s is a lot of time. Even 200ms is really bad. That's more time standing in psi-storms, more time getting mutas killed from turrets because you couldn't turn them around fast enough. You can't just "get used to it." I know people are so eager to shoe horn in international online competition, but until network infrastructure world wide improves we won't be seeing low latencies globally.
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I find much of this talk about 500ms+ response time to be a bit absurd. For example, I live in Toronto, and my ping to Seoul is under 400ms. The distance from Toronto to Seoul is greater than anywhere in Korea to California. Which logically means that the ping from Korean players to the US Servers is under 400ms.
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On April 02 2011 05:44 zakmaa wrote:
I find much of this talk about 500ms+ response time to be a bit absurd. For example, I live in Toronto, and my ping to Seoul is under 400ms. The distance from Toronto to Seoul is greater than anywhere in Korea to California. Which logically means that the ping from Korean players to the US Servers is under 400ms.
Thats a pretty random statement, are you pinging the blizzard server in korea? i doubt it, if your just using pingtest in korea those servers are lightning fast so they can test exactly how fast your connection is and arent anywhere near accurate to the amount it could be on the blizzard server during peak hours in korea, plus that doesnt take into account lag spikes, and 400ms is huge thats almost half a second delay anyways wich would be more then enough to change anyones gameplay for the worse significantly.
Also Idra was talking on state of the game yesterday and mentioned how he thought the amount of people trying to downplay the lag in korea was pretty funny in his opinion he didnt think many of those games would have the same results had the koreans been in lan like settings, so i do think alot of people are playing down the lag, although i heard at the OGS house they are using a korean Telecom connection and its actually not too bad lag wise where as IM and possibly other houses could be using a different internet service provider wich is considerably worse. I could tell it was worse in some games then others so it made sense. I think with some practice the lag could be manageable but it will never be optimal going from korea to EU or NA obviously, also i know right after the earthquake it was alot worse some people said so hopefully they have fixed that and the lag can be brought down to a manageable level so we can see some of our favourite koreans perform some of their micro intensive builds that we know and love
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In the end there is STILL lag issues in the games and its already said that EU to NA connection is better then KR to NA.
And saying that they just need to get used to the delay is not going to bring out 100% of their potential. True they can get their build timing and production better with practice on the NA servers but what about stuff like micro, positioning and poking? Imagine running into siege line only to pull your army back seconds later losing alot more then you should have. That is something practice on NA servers does NOT fix. Practice on other servers only helps with your timing but stuff like reaction based micro is not something you can fully fix by practicing playing with delay.
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On April 11 2011 05:52 kennz wrote:
In the end there is STILL lag issues in the games and its already said that EU to NA connection is better then KR to NA.
Where in EU to where in NA? Where in KR to where in NA? By how much?
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I can't give you numbers but its already been said by numerous people as well as Jinro if you read the first post..
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well, as for countrys like france, germany or sweden the latency to NA is ok - Ukraine and western Russia are worse by a lot actually.
I have no idea how it is compared to korea, obv. standard EU is better.
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On April 11 2011 06:51 kennz wrote:
I can't give you numbers but its already been said by numerous people as well as Jinro if you read the first post..
The first post said nothing about the lag from say, the Ukraine to the NA servers.
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On April 07 2011 00:02 cheesemaster wrote:
Also Idra was talking on state of the game yesterday and mentioned how he thought the amount of people trying to downplay the lag in korea was pretty funny in his opinion he didnt think many of those games would have the same results had the koreans been in lan like settings
This is compelling news until you remember that making excuses for why games were lost is what Idra does.
Is lag a factor in these games? Undoubtedly. Is it the sole factor in determining who wins and who loses? No way. As mentioned above, it's more of a cumulative effect where some discomfort with lag leads to discomfort in other parts of your game, you get thrown off your usual plan, you start making mistakes (small or large), things snowball. That example of the burrowed roaches getting blown away by tanks and accomplishing absolutely nothing for it? That's not lag - that was far too much time under fire to blame on delayed response. That was player error. Perhaps it was exacerbated by lag, but lag didn't cause the problem there. I'm not going to speculate as to why that player messed up in that way - I don't know what he was thinking at the time, where he was focused, etc. - but it's not hard to watch that activity and come to the conclusion that the player just made a huge mistake. These things happen.
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I got the feeling that Korean ex SC1 players don't have that much experience playing KR-NA or KR-EU games as they trained KR-KR mainly SC1 times. So they:
1. Underestimated foreigners OR
2. Didn't see lag as issue OR
3. Didn't care
I was hoping when TSL3 was making invites that more WC3 based players would been picked (picked none) because they are very experienced lag based play (as wc3 games was used to be KR-EU) and they know how to deal these kind of things. For example, Moon or Lyn would have been good picks.
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Russian Federation154 Posts
I'm play on NA server,when was beta,didn't feel any unplayble lags,but ofc ping on EU, much better ;p
and i'm from Siberia
Трассировка маршрута к us.battle.net [12.129.242.40]
с максимальным числом прыжков 30:
1 <1 мс <1 мс <1 мс 217.195.208.82
2 2 ms <1 мс 2 ms 217.195.211.81
3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 212.44.133.69
4 49 ms 49 ms 49 ms mx01.Stockholm.gldn.net [194.186.157.62]
5 49 ms 49 ms 49 ms 64.214.150.73
6 206 ms 206 ms 206 ms 192.205.37.93
7 229 ms 250 ms 229 ms cr1.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.123.30.18]
8 222 ms 229 ms 221 ms cr84.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.123.30.249]
9 228 ms 229 ms 227 ms gar5.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.122.129.25]
10 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms 12.122.255.74
11 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms mdf001c7613r0003-gig-10-1.lax1.attens.net [12.12
9.193.242]
12 * * * Превышен интервал ожидания для запроса.
13 * * * Превышен интервал ожидания для запроса.
14 * * * Превышен интервал ожидания для запроса.
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As far as i know Siberia uses a landline to Europe, while Asia is connected to US with an undersea - connection. So I doubt you can compare that. Here from Vietnam i get a 300-400 ping to EU and 200-300 to US. I guess thats quite comparable to Korea. (as both countries should use the same connection to US)
I dont mind if Foreigners beat Koreans if they play better and I really liked the results of the GOM World Tournament.
What bothers me is the quality of the TSL games. All the Koreans besides MC (who played vs Ciara first round and then in RO16 against White-Ra who was in Korea) showed really horrible micro and looked completely off their game. Sure, it's possible that all of them just had a bad day or didn't prepare enough, but it still sucks to see MVP losing Marines and Reapers to Probes or NaDa flying a Banshee into Missile Turrets taking 3 hits before it turns around or running into tanks and pulling back too late.
No, I don't have proof the lag is the reason, but the many cases of horrible performances suggest it is.
Again, I don't wanna take anything away from the foreigners and I don't want to protect the oh so sacred Koreans, it just bothers me to see games like that in a tournament that was supposed to show amazing ones.
It might be better to not invite any Koreans or let the players play it out server wise and just invite the top 8 to an offine event (or make the whole thing an offline event, but i guess that would be too expensive).
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I just did a test at pingtest.net and although the actual ping number you get from that site will be nowhere near accurate of the ping in a game (ie playing cross servers on battle.net the ping would be much higher) One of the things that was interesting was that there was significant packet loss while doing the ping test. To my understanding packet loss will result in lag spikes and this test is pretty much in the most ideal conditions getting as i am pinging a very fast server in korea that is supposed to calculate the very best ping you will have.
I could see the Koreans having a fairly hard time during certain points of any game as if there is packet loss it will result in the game stuttering. Also my ping was at around the 300 mark so that is pretty bad already but i would say it would be much higher on battle.net. If yoou look at the comparison like this, so when i test my ping on my home server it sits at around 10-20 wich is really really quite good, now if i log on to wow say ( a battle net game where i can check my ping) it shows that i have anywhere between 90-170ms depending on certain things such as time of day. I dont think that means i would be getting 5-10x 300ms on the korean server and also there internet is much faster although my internet is 25mbps and that is more than fast enough to run any internet game with negligible latency. So regardless id say the koreans could be playing with anywhere fromm 300(in the very best possible situation) to up to 1000ms. That is quite substantial.
You could tell during the NASL that rainbow was suffering fromm far far less than optimal latency as when the server isnt responding your ping is probably in the thousands somewhere. I feel that in some games it is defenetly manageable and in other games there are spikes that make players make mistakes here and there (probably most common) but there have been a few games ive seen between TSL and NASL that have been beyond that where it seems like the player is experiencing seconds of delay at certain points. I dont think there is anyway to solve this right now and i would honestly prefer if koreans just played in live tournaments until technology allows us to play cross servers with little to no packet loss or ping delays. It honestly just makes them look like worse players than they actually are and its disheartening for them and their fans. NASL will be a good indicator of how bad it actually is, so far there was at least 1 game that was beyond playable for Rainbow and at least 1 game where spikes where a problem (ensnare move commanding his army into collosus) poor guy was probably frantically clicking the a key and nothing was happening >< this was possibly after he was in a tough spot but it still sucks to see it happen.
I dont think koreans should participate in online tournaments any time in the near future it makes them look far more inferior than their live play results indicate. As much as id love to see my favourite korean players play more games especially against foreigners I think only live tournaments will provide a satisfactory indicator of their skill in regards to the rest of the world. And as you can see so far IEM and GOMTV WC were dominated pretty heavily by koreans, online tournaments will not hold any bearings in terms of results for me, if the koreans do well that is just more of an attestment to their skill as in many cases they will be playing at a disadvantage. Im not tryin to take anything away from the skill of foreigners but as of now live tournament results and online tournament results dont matchup.
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Jinro does good in GSL.
Huk made Code S.
Idra did good in GSL.
Yet they still lose in offline events to other "foreigners".
Now tell me... Why do you think this should not happen to "true" Koreans? Do they go into super sayan mode as soon as they face another foreigner then Idra/Huk/Jinro or what?
Ah... I know it: Because of your SC/BW bias.
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On April 14 2011 19:04 Velr wrote:
Jinro does good in GSL.
Huk made Code S.
Idra did good in GSL.
Yet they still lose in offline events to other "foreigners".
Now tell me... Why do you think this should not happen to "true" Koreans? Do they go into super sayan mode as soon as they face another foreigner then Idra/Huk/Jinro or what?
Ah... I know it: Because of your SC/BW bias.
Im not saying koreans are for sure gonna perform well in live tournaments, but so far from the small amount of offline tournaments we have, they have done well. Jinro has for sure been in a slump lately and i think he can do far better than he has shown in sweden, that is only 1 tournament with 2 players and a very limited amount of games. Huk did reasonably well at MLG for coming from the open bracket and playing so many games but i wouldnt put him up there with the top koreans yet. So far though koreans have outperfomed foreigners in actual best of 3 format live tournaments, thats all the live tournament info we have to go off of i know it may not be entirely accurate but so fare koreans have done really quite well in offline tournaments Mc winning dreamhack, Korean top 3 finish at IEM and the GSL WC where koreans took out every foreign player except dimaga in the first round and then dimaga getting taken out handily in the second and TT1 losing his first game to a korean in the tournament. Thats what we have to go off of, also the quality of their play is alot lower in online tournaments overall, is that just a coincidence?
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I agree that the Top Koreans in general are a little better. But i doubt they have put in the same efforts a some/all of their opponents have... TSL is just not the same for them as it is for "us".
Where did you see lag?
Fruitdealer got trashed on all levels.
Nestea fell to a nice attack in Game 2 and lost due to bad decision making/overcomitting in Game 3. That can happen to everyone at anytime anywhere.
Nada vs TLO? That Banshee disagreed with it being laggy.
Nada vs Kas? Kas was just way better.
Genius? At least the second game was lost due to his build and the phoneix play did not indicate any sort of lag? Why would he even bother with such a Micro heavy build if he felt lag in the first game?
MC? MC doesn't care, MC does win. But he can drop games to foreigners, if he can drop games, everyone can drop games and everyone can lose a series..... Sooner or later :p.
All these games did not look as if they were influenced by lag...
The biggest diffrence probably is:
TSL for most foreigners = Valhalla.
TSL for Koreans = Online-Tournament with a nice pricepool.
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EPT
