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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 09 2011 07:00 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:49 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 06:47 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 06:43 HolyArrow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Sure, now we know that IdrA intended to annoy Chill. However, I make the point that the nature of the annoyance - namely, the PMs arguing against IdrA's ban - fall perfectly within the rules of the site, as another poster cited. If the people PMing Chill do it in a stupid/trollworthy way, the blame falls upon them, not IdrA, since PMing to protest a ban that one thought was unjust is perfectly within the rules of the site. This kind of creates a strange situation, where we have intent (IdrA's intent to annoy) versus being within the rules (PMing to talk about bans people felt were wrong). I think it would be safe to assume that Chill was being annoyed and PMed IdrA (or anybody on TL, really) asking what the heck he was doing. IdrA at that point just said "Hey, I'm annoying you. No, I don't regret it". Trolling the moderators is grounds for a ban. It doesn't matter if "it was his PM army, not IdrA" that did the actual act of sending PMs. It's that IdrA admitted he was doing it that matters. troll forum mod = ban troll forum member = ... trolled forum member teases troll = ban banned forum member trolls forum mod = more ban troll = ... (while in other arguments) mod specifically states they've banned people before for harassment outside of the forum or for other reasons not related to TL forum. explain the logic behind this, please. Troll = Ban And that's about it. And yes, while they have banned people for things outside of TL, that is their jurisdiction alone and varies on a case by case basis. However, you cannot claim that someone should be banned because of something that happens outside of TL, because that's completely up to the moderators, rather than a "set in stone" rule.
So cruncher walks free...?
because in my example troll=cruncher
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Okay I haven't been following this very closely but even if cruncher was stream cheating its not TL's responsibility to stop that. They do not own starcraft 2 or idra's stream.
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Trolling =! Stream sniping
Many players snipe, be it pro gamers or not, there is nothing wrong with it. Look at TotalBiscuit, who does daily streaming, he gets snipe'd about once a day, you don't see him complaining on TL about that.
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On May 09 2011 07:03 Xacez wrote:
Trolling =! Stream sniping
Many players snipe, be it pro gamers or not, there is nothing wrong with it. Look at TotalBiscuit, who does daily streaming, he gets snipe'd about once a day, you don't see him complaining on TL about that.
verbally admitting his actions "to annoy idra" is trolling, but we can't do anything about it because he said it aloud instead of it being typed in a thread.
noone can see how stupid that is?
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On May 09 2011 06:33 niteReloaded wrote:
Idra is immature as fuck, and then when he acts like a brat and shows it he's still somehow proud that "he speaks his mind".
Well dear Greg, it's nice that you speak your mind, but it'd be even better if your mind, or should I say emotional maturity level wasn't terribly reminiscent to that of a 8 year old.
You guys need to permaban him, who cares if he's a good SC2 player, he's a shitty human.
User was warned for this post
Calling someone a shitty human is no better then calling someone a waste of life. In what world do you think that saying that would prove that you're any better than him? Idra called out cruncher for cheating, took it too far by saying he was a waste of life so got the ban he deserved (personal attacks on others aren't allowed no matter the circumstances). He's not proud that he speaks his mind, he's proud that he called someone that he doesn't like out for cheating. He's being the change he wants to see in TL. He's pretty much the Gandhi of Starcraft 2. The mods are just doing their job according to the rules outlined in the ten tl commandments. They are like the police of the forums not everyone likes the police but without them theres no order. Idra's ban is one of pride and its merited but maybe it will actually be a good thing for tl. Mods keep up the good work and Idra keep being the change you want to see in the forums!
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I think the ban is fine and all, but there is one thing i dislike.
Why hasnt IdrA been perma banned yet? (sorry if it's been answered in this thread, dont have time to read 100s of pages  )
I mean he's been banned so many times that any other forum member would have gotten a perma a loooong time ago, but he just keeps getting 90 day bans or whatever. I dont have a problem if TL openly says that they are giving him special treatment, and they have a good reason for it.
The guy constantly posts the worst and most offensive posts and it generally only leads to drama and flaming.
But oh well, i think most people are blowing this out of proportion. It's a ban on TL, chill out 
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On May 09 2011 07:05 Asparagus wrote:
verbally admitting his actions "to annoy idra" is trolling,
Source? It's not that I don't believe you, but this is something I've missed and I'd like to see it.
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On May 09 2011 06:29 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:25 HolyArrow wrote:
I do not deny that IdrA was being far more straightforward than CrunCher. I guess an adequate response to you in this case would be to refer you to my post immediately preceeding this one, where I revise my argument with the knowledge that IdrA explicitly admitted his intent to annoy Chill. The thing is, annoying Idra by stream sniping him isn't a bannable offense. Posting on TL that Cruncher is a "waste of life" is a bannable offense. The antagonism between Idra and Cruncher is their personal business. But when it spills over to TL the mods have to act. That's the essence of what happened. Cruncher didn't force Idra to break TL's rules, and had Idra twitted it instead, I don't think he would've been banned.
I agree, what cruncher did happened outside TL and therefore even if cruncher cheated or not, TL should not take their act on it. But the problem is that TL extened Idra's ban because something that happened outside TL.
It's not on teamliquid, and even if his outside act effected Chill, it's still not Idra's fault. If someone told another person to steal from a store, then the person who steals from the store should be arrested and blamed, not the guy who told him/she to do it. My advice would be to ban the people that pm:ed/spammed Chill.
And even if his outside works effected negative on TL, so did crunchers act of sniping the stream, but it's still Idra who should be blamed to make a post like that, not cruncher, even if he triggered the effect.
I like Idra, but I'm not bias with him, I just trying to be objective, and I think this moderation has double standards.
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On May 09 2011 07:06 Deadlyfish wrote:I think the ban is fine and all, but there is one thing i dislike. Why hasnt IdrA been perma banned yet? I mean he's been banned so many times that any other forum member would have gotten a perma a loooong time ago, but he just keeps getting 90 day bans or whatever. I dont have a problem if TL openly says that they are giving him special treatment, and they have a good reason for it. The guy constantly posts the worst and most offensive posts and it generally only leads to drama and flaming. But oh well, i think most people are blowing this out of proportion. It's a ban on TL, chill out
Because perma banning idra would accomplish nothing, while at the same time damaging the scene.
TL honestly thinks new players see idra (who posts less than 5 times a week) and use it as justification for flamming people on the forum themselves, which is mostly untrue. They will do it regardless if idra is banned or not, people are just idiots, idra doesn't push them along that path.
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On May 09 2011 06:53 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:45 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. I have read that, but that unrelated to my post. I personally message Chill, because I did not agree with the banned and I followed the rules. It a decision of the individual. Thus if rules were violate and Chill was harass, that is the fault of the individual who made that decision, not Greg "IdrA" Fields. I don't see how it's unrelated, it seems about as related as something could possibly be. His tweet didn't directly tell people to harass, but he meant it to harass, and since Idra did something to have Chill harassed, he is the one who gets punished. Since the PMs weren't harassment, but protesting a ban, which is standard procedure and allowed, the users who sent the PMs were not punished. But Idra, who wanted Chill to be harassed and attempted to make it happen, gets punished. It makes perfect sense to me.
It's unrelated cause his intent doesn't control me. It was a clear statement which is clearly allowed in the rules.
I'm sorry you don't understand. I clearly have the intent for wanting lower gas prices, but it's outside of my power to do so. Greg can clearly want people to harass Chill but it's out side of his power to make them do so. It was still a individual decision and I strongly do not support moderating actions that happen outside of the forums. It's very close if not online bulling.
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On May 09 2011 07:06 Xacez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:05 Asparagus wrote:
verbally admitting his actions "to annoy idra" is trolling, Source? It's not that I don't believe you, but this is something I've missed and I'd like to see it.
I wouldn't object to a source either, but the fact that there's obvious enmity between the two should be proof enough. You just don't constantly try to interact with someone that you obviously have a bad history with if you don't intend to annoy them somehow. In this case, there's enough circumstantial evidence in the IdrA/CrunCher grudge to pretty much infer without much doubt that CrunCher intended to annoy IdrA.
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I'm really amazed why the topic of this thread keeps going back to cruncher...
Users comment on Idra's stream thread about Cruncher stream cheating (which they suspect and Idra suspects). Idra makes a comment about Cruncher being a waste of life with vulgar language. Chill bans Idra because Chill finds the comment ban worthy. Idra then twitters to his followers to harass Chill about the ban because Idra finds it wrong. TL admins ban Idra for 90 days because Idra basically attacked Chill and the authority of TL.
There's a clear offense for the 90 days ban that Idra brought on himself. Whether 90 days is a just punishment or if the issue was dealt with in the most sensible way by TL should be the topic of the issue... The topic shouldn't be if Cruncher's alleged cheating should be pointed as the source of all this controversy and whether Cruncher should be punished for it.
Personally, I don't really like the situation as a whole. TL argues that Idra has always been given a leeway and been treated with bias because of his progamer status and enough is enough. I dislike that the treatment the Mods receive are even more biased than the treatment that anyone else gets. Mods look out for other Mods and they stick together. There have been many and numerous comments about this issue where a mod writes something in the lines of "calling someone a waste of life over a videogame is ____" and it's always something negative. The inconsistency in that is that it's not just a videogame to Cruncher or Idra. It's their lifestyle and how they earn their living and how even the owners of TL earn their living. Also, many and numerous people openly attack a player named Combat-EX and even Chill has called him things that Idra's comment about Cruncher don't even compare to. Everyone hates Combat-EX so TL does nothing about him. Mods even let a thread of Combat-EX begging for wintrade stay up because they hated him so much and wanted other people to know how much of a loser he was.
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Cruncher may well have been stream trolling Idra, but TL has no rules against players stream trolling each other. Forum rules do not, as far as I know, apply to streams. TL does not regulate its user streams and has probably never done so except in extreme situations. The stuff that goes on in TL's featured streams - the vulgarity, the shit talking, the constant trolling - would've resulted in them being banned several times over if TL sought to regulate them. But that's perhaps part of the reason why TL doesn't.
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ITT: Idra fanboys being Idra fanboys
User was warned for this post
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What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra)
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TL extended IdrA's ban, because his comment on Twitter had direct implications inside TL (the harassment to Chill). And because, after this, TL Staff asked about the intentions behind this comment, and IdrA said that wanted to annoy Chil and won't apologize.
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On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra)
Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant.
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On May 09 2011 07:12 Kamikazess wrote:
TL extended IdrA's ban, because his comment on Twitter had direct implications inside TL (the harassment to Chill). And because, after this, TL Staff asked about the intentions behind this comment, and IdrA said that wanted to annoy Chil and won't apologize.
I see no source that he wanted to annoy chill. All I see is his thoughts were just, and he won't apologize. (Going on the first page source too, not some conjured members post)
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guy is pretty immature and doesn't seem like he'll ever grow up, so why not just perma ban him instead? he may be one of the best zergs (although nestea is ten million times better than he is), but he doesn't really contribute anything to the community other than constantly insulting other players and whining about balance.
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EPT
