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Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion.
For regular posters, don't quote the trolls. |
On May 19 2011 10:38 krbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:16 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 10:12 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 10:03 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:58 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 09:54 FearTheReaperMan wrote:On May 19 2011 09:34 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 09:29 FearTheReaperMan wrote:On May 19 2011 09:19 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:
Somebody compared being gay to bad eye sight, this is a dangerous alusion. I would much rather compare it to the few people who are born withtaste buds that favor bitter flavors, as opposed to the sugary salty majoirty. It is much harder to make an argument that taste preferences ties into morals. It is like having bad eye sight. IMO people are gay because they are confused, for what ever reason. Though social interactions and etc... they have decided become gay. True ill never know for sure because I will never be gay . Bad eye sight is a genetic flaw. Which is the reason it has "bad" appended to it. If you say the two are similar then you are saying homosexuality is also a flaw, and "bad". If you are confused then it is a choice, not a genetic mutation. Therefore not relate able to eye sight. No one choose to have bad eye sight, they were never confused as to whether they wanted to not be able to see very well. No but its not all their fault that it was brought up upon them. It was kind of a bad analogy but its somewhere inbetween both. Its partly there fault because of a lot of reasons and its somewhat not their fault because they cannot control everythign that goes on around them . This issue is that you are comparing a genetic trait to something that you say people can be confused about. If its genetic then you will not be confused. If its something you can be confused about then it is a choice. Unless you make a distinction between hardwired desire and actual behavior, you cannot unlock this issue. seriously as I wrote, you can be a gay homosexual, or a bi homosexual, or even a straight homosexual. You do not have a clue about what you are talking about. GAYHomosexuality is romantic and/or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender. BIBisexuality is sexual behavior or an orientation involving physical and/or romantic attraction to both males and females. STRAIGHTHeterosexuality is romantic and/or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the opposite sex or gender. A gay homosexual is redundant. "I'm a gay, gay." A bi homosexual doesnt make sense. "I'm a guy and i like guys and girls, but I also like guys." A straight homosexual is contradictory. "I only like guys, and I only like girls." This is not exactly like logic. I know a lot about what I talk about being bisexual. There is a saying in the gay community "bi now, gay later." Anyway, my terms are not at all contradictory if you refer to homosexuality as the root hardwired desire, and leave terms like gay, lesbian, straight, bi to mark lifestyle preferences instead. Does that make sense to you? Pretty pro troll. I wonder why the mods allow this shit.
Well I think you are the troll sir. After all, you started calling me names mr scv.
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On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing.
This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes.
Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because
1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces.
2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities.
The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years.
Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough.
Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause.
People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity.
Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives.
To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions.
1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined.
2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species.
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On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species.
What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this?
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On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:
1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined.
2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species.
You realize that these two conclusions are essentially identical, right? The only difference between the two is whether you label homosexuality as a "mental illness" or as a "natural variation," which is just a semantic matter.
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Whilst we live in a liberal society, a thread like this which claims to support the LGBT community sickens me out.
Do not get me wrong, homosexuality is part and parcel of north american society so there is no hiding from it. A thread that began as more of an educational/acceptance thread has no spiralled out of control.
Some of the posts make me wanna puke. Get it straight, there are gay dudes on TL but there is no need to go into details as to what gays do/want to do. I think this thread should be shut down.
Keep TL clean and safe, I'm sure you don't want your kids to be reading up on what homosexuals do with each other!
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On May 19 2011 11:12 needmoreMicro wrote:
Whilst we live in a liberal society, a thread like this which claims to support the LGBT community sickens me out.
Do not get me wrong, homosexuality is part and parcel of north american society so there is no hiding from it. A thread that began as more of an educational/acceptance thread has no spiralled out of control.
Some of the posts make me wanna puke. Get it straight, there are gay dudes on TL but there is no need to go into details as to what gays do/want to do. I think this thread should be shut down.
Keep TL clean and safe, I'm sure you don't want your kids to be reading up on what homosexuals do with each other!
?
Please elaborate/post examples of the things in this thread that make you puke.
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On May 19 2011 11:12 needmoreMicro wrote:
Whilst we live in a liberal society, a thread like this which claims to support the LGBT community sickens me out.
Do not get me wrong, homosexuality is part and parcel of north american society so there is no hiding from it. A thread that began as more of an educational/acceptance thread has no spiralled out of control.
Some of the posts make me wanna puke. Get it straight, there are gay dudes on TL but there is no need to go into details as to what gays do/want to do. I think this thread should be shut down.
Keep TL clean and safe, I'm sure you don't want your kids to be reading up on what homosexuals do with each other!
You probably want to avoid the Nada's Body thread.
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On May 19 2011 11:12 needmoreMicro wrote:
Whilst we live in a liberal society, a thread like this which claims to support the LGBT community sickens me out.
Do not get me wrong, homosexuality is part and parcel of north american society so there is no hiding from it. A thread that began as more of an educational/acceptance thread has no spiralled out of control.
Some of the posts make me wanna puke. Get it straight, there are gay dudes on TL but there is no need to go into details as to what gays do/want to do. I think this thread should be shut down.
Keep TL clean and safe, I'm sure you don't want your kids to be reading up on what homosexuals do with each other!
Troll Alert!
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On May 19 2011 09:58 krbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:54 FearTheReaperMan wrote:On May 19 2011 09:34 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 09:29 FearTheReaperMan wrote:On May 19 2011 09:19 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:
Somebody compared being gay to bad eye sight, this is a dangerous alusion. I would much rather compare it to the few people who are born withtaste buds that favor bitter flavors, as opposed to the sugary salty majoirty. It is much harder to make an argument that taste preferences ties into morals. It is like having bad eye sight. IMO people are gay because they are confused, for what ever reason. Though social interactions and etc... they have decided become gay. True ill never know for sure because I will never be gay . Bad eye sight is a genetic flaw. Which is the reason it has "bad" appended to it. If you say the two are similar then you are saying homosexuality is also a flaw, and "bad". If you are confused then it is a choice, not a genetic mutation. Therefore not relate able to eye sight. No one choose to have bad eye sight, they were never confused as to whether they wanted to not be able to see very well. No but its not all their fault that it was brought up upon them. It was kind of a bad analogy but its somewhere inbetween both. Its partly there fault because of a lot of reasons and its somewhat not their fault because they cannot control everythign that goes on around them . This issue is that you are comparing a genetic trait to something that you say people can be confused about. If its genetic then you will not be confused. If its something you can be confused about then it is a choice.
This is not true at all. In retrospect, I perceive my confusion as having been between my innate homosexual urges, and the societal pressure to be straight (along with my non-sexual appreciation of beautiful women). When you are raised all your life with the expectation that you will find women attractive, you just assume that what you feel for pretty women must be sexual - until your natural urges toward men start to manifest themselves, which leads to the confusion.
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On May 19 2011 11:12 needmoreMicro wrote:
Whilst we live in a liberal society, a thread like this which claims to support the LGBT community sickens me out.
Do not get me wrong, homosexuality is part and parcel of north american society so there is no hiding from it. A thread that began as more of an educational/acceptance thread has no spiralled out of control.
Some of the posts make me wanna puke. Get it straight, there are gay dudes on TL but there is no need to go into details as to what gays do/want to do. I think this thread should be shut down.
Keep TL clean and safe, I'm sure you don't want your kids to be reading up on what homosexuals do with each other!
Pretty sure your kids are watching porn which is just as bad??
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On May 19 2011 11:20 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:58 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 09:54 FearTheReaperMan wrote:On May 19 2011 09:34 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 09:29 FearTheReaperMan wrote:On May 19 2011 09:19 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:
Somebody compared being gay to bad eye sight, this is a dangerous alusion. I would much rather compare it to the few people who are born withtaste buds that favor bitter flavors, as opposed to the sugary salty majoirty. It is much harder to make an argument that taste preferences ties into morals. It is like having bad eye sight. IMO people are gay because they are confused, for what ever reason. Though social interactions and etc... they have decided become gay. True ill never know for sure because I will never be gay . Bad eye sight is a genetic flaw. Which is the reason it has "bad" appended to it. If you say the two are similar then you are saying homosexuality is also a flaw, and "bad". If you are confused then it is a choice, not a genetic mutation. Therefore not relate able to eye sight. No one choose to have bad eye sight, they were never confused as to whether they wanted to not be able to see very well. No but its not all their fault that it was brought up upon them. It was kind of a bad analogy but its somewhere inbetween both. Its partly there fault because of a lot of reasons and its somewhat not their fault because they cannot control everythign that goes on around them . This issue is that you are comparing a genetic trait to something that you say people can be confused about. If its genetic then you will not be confused. If its something you can be confused about then it is a choice. This is not true at all. In retrospect, I perceive my confusion as having been between my innate homosexual urges, and the societal pressure to be straight (along with my non-sexual appreciation of beautiful women). When you are raised all your life with the expectation that you will find women attractive, you just assume that what you feel for pretty women must be sexual - until your natural urges toward men start to manifest themselves, which leads to the confusion.
Yeah this was confusing for me too. I found thhat agressive women actually turn me on on some level, and sex with them ends with explosive orgasms. So yeah you can work on it if you feel like it. Also, other than the social expectation, some simply want to have a relatioship with a woman. Some can make it work. One of my former coworkers have a child with a woman and he is now gay with his partner. Other than wanting a child, some gays really dig women and want to make sex and relationship work, and it would be unfair to call them delusional or in denial. So I guess what I am saying is that it is a choice, but a very difficult one.
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On May 19 2011 11:09 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species. What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this?
Hmm, its funny to me how people have a habit of only focusing in on one part of anything they read. First you point to some fictional ivory tower standard when all my post points to is a standard logical deduction. I say explicitly in my post that trying to "prove" the points in this argument is a matter of futility so I give you the tools through which you can form a more informed opinion. I may finish it with my own conclusion but instead of going into some "killer" tangent, actually read the last two conclusions for their content. I am not the type of person that fights tooth and nail with people on the internet because they are wrong, but I ask If you are serious about having a discussion please actually contribute relevant information. If you were for instance able to provide a third, rational conclusion Id love to hear it.
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On May 19 2011 11:29 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:09 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species. What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this? Hmm, its funny to me how people have a habit of only focusing in on one part of anything they read. First you point to some fictional ivory tower standard when all my post points to is a standard logical deduction. I say explicitly in my post that trying to "prove" the points in this argument is a matter of futility so I give you the tools through which you can form a more informed opinion. I may finish it with my own conclusion but instead of going into some "killer" tangent, actually read the last two conclusions for their content. I am not the type of person that fights tooth and nail with people on the internet because they are wrong, but I ask If you are serious about having a discussion please actually contribute relevant information. If you were for instance able to provide a third, rational conclusion Id love to hear it.
He has been flame baiting ever since i started posting in this thread. Just ignore him. Its the only thing you can do since the mods seem not to care about moderating a quality discussion.
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On May 19 2011 11:33 krbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:29 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 11:09 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species. What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this? Hmm, its funny to me how people have a habit of only focusing in on one part of anything they read. First you point to some fictional ivory tower standard when all my post points to is a standard logical deduction. I say explicitly in my post that trying to "prove" the points in this argument is a matter of futility so I give you the tools through which you can form a more informed opinion. I may finish it with my own conclusion but instead of going into some "killer" tangent, actually read the last two conclusions for their content. I am not the type of person that fights tooth and nail with people on the internet because they are wrong, but I ask If you are serious about having a discussion please actually contribute relevant information. If you were for instance able to provide a third, rational conclusion Id love to hear it. He has been flame baiting ever since i started posting in this thread. Just ignore him. Its the only thing you can do since the mods seem not to care about moderating a quality discussion.
Ok, Ill take your advice man. The personal insults already had me thinking that, as well as calling something a false dichotomy without presenting a third deduction (the way of proving something is a false dichotomy). Its just sad because the gaming community is generally so open to logic and reason when it comes to serious matters (even if they troll like crazy I think they still learn).
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On May 19 2011 11:39 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:33 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 11:29 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 11:09 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species. What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this? Hmm, its funny to me how people have a habit of only focusing in on one part of anything they read. First you point to some fictional ivory tower standard when all my post points to is a standard logical deduction. I say explicitly in my post that trying to "prove" the points in this argument is a matter of futility so I give you the tools through which you can form a more informed opinion. I may finish it with my own conclusion but instead of going into some "killer" tangent, actually read the last two conclusions for their content. I am not the type of person that fights tooth and nail with people on the internet because they are wrong, but I ask If you are serious about having a discussion please actually contribute relevant information. If you were for instance able to provide a third, rational conclusion Id love to hear it. He has been flame baiting ever since i started posting in this thread. Just ignore him. Its the only thing you can do since the mods seem not to care about moderating a quality discussion. Ok, Ill take your advice man. The personal insults already had me thinking that, as well as calling something a false dichotomy without presenting a third deduction (the way of proving something is a false dichotomy). Its just sad because the gaming community is generally so open to logic and reason when it comes to serious matters (even if they troll like crazy I think they still learn).
Yea go back a few pages does the same thing to me. He's just doing it cause no ones moderating this thread.
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On May 19 2011 11:29 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:09 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species. What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this? Hmm, its funny to me how people have a habit of only focusing in on one part of anything they read. First you point to some fictional ivory tower standard when all my post points to is a standard logical deduction. I say explicitly in my post that trying to "prove" the points in this argument is a matter of futility so I give you the tools through which you can form a more informed opinion. I may finish it with my own conclusion but instead of going into some "killer" tangent, actually read the last two conclusions for their content. I am not the type of person that fights tooth and nail with people on the internet because they are wrong, but I ask If you are serious about having a discussion please actually contribute relevant information. If you were for instance able to provide a third, rational conclusion Id love to hear it.
Well i think homosexuality is harmful but not a mental illness, as a third alternative. This is why I said gay problem in a general sense, your suicide statistic citations are a good example to support this point. However, mental illness is also characterized by a loss of control, but some homosexuals have no strict difficulty staying away from gay behavior. This is hard to show by surveys, but ask any of your older relatives before the gay rights movement. Gays simply fit in and got married, often to lesbians I presume. The lack of marital satisfaction could be counterbalanced by increased productivity due to workaholism or the benefits of raising ones own children. My best evidence, however, if you did not read my first post in this thread, is my own example. I have been with many women before, some I enjoyed sexually and and even companionshipwise. I tell you I am a homosexual, but I chose to be bisexual, leaning towards women mostly. I hope that clarifies things.
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On May 19 2011 11:39 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:33 krbz wrote:On May 19 2011 11:29 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 11:09 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species. What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this? Hmm, its funny to me how people have a habit of only focusing in on one part of anything they read. First you point to some fictional ivory tower standard when all my post points to is a standard logical deduction. I say explicitly in my post that trying to "prove" the points in this argument is a matter of futility so I give you the tools through which you can form a more informed opinion. I may finish it with my own conclusion but instead of going into some "killer" tangent, actually read the last two conclusions for their content. I am not the type of person that fights tooth and nail with people on the internet because they are wrong, but I ask If you are serious about having a discussion please actually contribute relevant information. If you were for instance able to provide a third, rational conclusion Id love to hear it. He has been flame baiting ever since i started posting in this thread. Just ignore him. Its the only thing you can do since the mods seem not to care about moderating a quality discussion. Ok, Ill take your advice man. The personal insults already had me thinking that, as well as calling something a false dichotomy without presenting a third deduction (the way of proving something is a false dichotomy). Its just sad because the gaming community is generally so open to logic and reason when it comes to serious matters (even if they troll like crazy I think they still learn).
I am sorry but you started the personal insult by saying i dont know what I am talking about. I just replied by calling your false dichotomy. Thats all. If you can discuss this without being condescending, great. If not, maybe we should just leave this issue alone.
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to add to this whole discussion about whether or not being gay is a choice or not... let me just share a little bit of my own story.
for a long time I thought that I was straight, I tried really hard to fall into the role of being a 'straight guy', I tried to hide some of my girlier interests (anime, animals, cooking, k-pop boys bands etc.) and tried to show more interest in sports, clubbing and whatever else all my straight friends were doing that seemed really straight. I was even kind of religious for a while. In my mind I had few doubts that I was straight, people said I seemed pretty masculine and 'normal', so why shouldn't I be?
Eventually I got more and more frustrated trying to live my life this way. I got angry at other people when I couldn't flirt with girls without forcing myself to really hard. When I did eventually have sex with a girl, it was so bad I couldn't even finish. I tried to several times to have sex but it was so difficult.. I had a hard time feeling any romantic connection to the girl. Eventually I became very depressed with life, and slowly started to realize I was gay. As I made this realization and came to terms with it, suddenly my life seemed much happier. I stopped caring about what other people thought and whether or not they would ridicule me and just decided to be myself.
I no longer have the anger problems I used to, and I'm a much nicer person because of it. I feel a lot happier being who I am, even if it makes me less popular to most people. Overall I learned that you can't be something you're not.
I can't really state whether or not being homosexual or not is a choice or involuntary in a strictly scientific sense, but for me at least it wasn't a choice.
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On May 19 2011 06:56 krbz wrote:
If the whole human race was to turn gay and not have sexual intercourse with someone of the opposite sex, we would effectively kill the entire human population. Having straight intercourse is centrally important to any species that is not a-sexual. Its one of our main roles while being a human (as with any animal), to have children. I would argue that there is obviously something wrong with being homosexual (aka not natural), in terms of how species survive. How do feel about this situation?
In terms of you being born gay, it is almost as if natural selection tries to weed homosexuality out of the gene pool, because gay couples cant have children, and therefore cant pass down their genes, that is "if" you are born gay.
Something to think about... and I'd love to know peoples opinions on this topic, not just the typical "omg how could you think that way".
Just to note, I do not hate homosexual people, I am merely stating things I see in nature.
Also I'd appreciate not having this post immediately removed, as i feel i should be allowed to speak my mind.. just as much as the people comparing homosexuality to races.
I've only grazed through a portion of your comments posted after this one, but I'd like to give me input on this one. Again, i write as a transsexual woman, not a gay man, so take what I say with a grain of salt, although i feel like the matter of procreation applies to me as well.
The implication that homosexuality is not genetic is a troublesome one. For every source you cite claiming it is a product of nurture, i can cite one equal claiming it is a product of nature. I suppose all we can say is that there is no definitive conclusion - neither is a truism, but I /personally/ feel it is more fair to give the homosexual community (or "us", if you encompass the entire LGBT community) the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty, in other words.
I would also like to clarify your opinions on this particular matter:
In terms of you being born gay, it is almost as if natural selection tries to weed homosexuality out of the gene pool, because gay couples cant have children, and therefore cant pass down their genes, that is "if" you are born gay.
This argument /seems/ to base itself on a fallacious, seemingly scientific basis. This is how i interpret what you are saying: Someone is born with faulty genes - no eyes, unattractive, gets sick easily. As such this person is an "undesirable mate" and as such, in an animalistic nature, this person would be unlikely to pass on these genetic characteristics. Similarly, a person is born with the "faulty" gene of being attracted to one's own sex - although all other characteristics such as eyesight, intelligence, facial features are "ideal" - shares the same situation with the person in the previous example.
In which case i don't think you can say that a person with a faulty gene of being attracted to one's own sex is "weeded out" by mother nature by making him/her... undesirable to the other sex, because this may not be the case. The reason said person is not mating is implicit without this characteristic itself, not because this person has an unfavorable characteristic and is being punished by "the laws of nature". This is circular logic, and the laws of natural selection and mating do not apply here.
am i mistaken? This seems to be a dangerous assumption of the "will of nature". In response to your post, although one might say "it is almost as if natural selection tries to weed out homosexuality", i do not think that it is the case. Natural selection is in fact not trying to weed out homosexuality - although it may be an unfortunate consequence. That said, homosexuality has been around for a very long time, and if there has been attempt by nature to weed it out, it has been fairly unsuccessful - social prejudice is probably more the cause of that.
Thank you for wanting to know other people's opinions on the topic. Much love <3 
EDIT: To the person above me, I'm glad that things have worked out better for you ^_^. Although I may not be in the same situation, I'm still really afraid to face the world myself, or tell my parents so that i can start treatment, so i can somewhat empathize with some of the adversities you face. Stand strong! As the saying goes, it gets better!
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On May 19 2011 11:51 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:29 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 11:09 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 10:52 Velocirapture wrote:On May 19 2011 09:48 il0ves0ulmirr0rrr wrote:On May 19 2011 09:44 darthfoley wrote:
I love how (some) straight people know how gay people really aren't gay. live and let live. It especially pisses me off with this "people choose to be gay" yet i've never seen a gay person say, "yea when i was 12 i decided to be gay."
logic makes sense none. There are "gays" who are in denial and like it that way. One of my friends is like that, and he only wants women. Whether you call him gay, bi, or heterosexual is a tricky thing. This is the kind of post that is epsecially troubling to me because it shows a startling lack of understanding. Basically this person is responding emotionally with anecdotal evidence (the worst kind of evidence when discussing these matters) and painting in broad strokes. Any data that can be gathered through polling or even asking friends and family is tainted by societal and social pressures. We can't even get an accurate number on how many gays there are because 1) MANY gays live their lives pretending to be straight for fear of losing their families or other outside forces. 2) Gay people are a unique minority in that they are born somewhat randomly (some trends are being looked at) across all cultures all over the world. Every generation has to re-form the communities. The second point is also part of the reason there is so much confusion in how to express anything related to sexuality since a level of isolation around this issue is normal in early years. Anyways... even considering all this I think people can find their way without having to make great leaps since there are some things that HAVE been proven and should be enough. Gay people appear in every culture/country/race/religion across the world so we can immediately discount some sort of specific environmental cause. People self identify and practice homosexuality even in countries where the punishment for it is severe (death and so on) and harassment/denial of rights is common (even in western countries) so there must be a motivation that overwhelms the TREMENDOUS adversity. Suicide rates among gay teens are astronomical compared to the average (keeping in mind these are only confirmed cases which makes the real numbers likely to be much higher). While teenagers are often irrational and confused, their emotions around this subject are strong enough that they overcome their survival instinct and end their lives. To be honest I could sit here all day typing more but they will get progressively more specific and IMO unnecessary. From these realities alone any rational person can only come to two conclusions. 1) Gay people are a manifestation of some sort of rampant mental illness with globally relevant causes yet to be determined. 2) Gay people are a naturally occurring variation of humanity, as natural and harmless as all the other variations that add to our strength as a species. What lack of understanding? You sound like you are in your early yearsw of colllege bevause you tailor your arguments and criticism to some ivory tower standard. That "anecdotal" evidence, or rather, personal experience, becomes much stronger in forming opinions as you get older and out of college. I can also tell you that I can tell whether many of my friends are "gay", behavioral clues are pretty easy to spot. Your analysis is insightful, however, so it is unfortunate that you leave off with a false dichotomy. To start with, whether we see homosexuality as a mental illness is not linked to whether it is natural. Killers, for example, are common enough to be found naturally occuring in the populaton, but we would probably agree that there must be a social solution to accomodate those with murderous urges for a harmless or less harmful outcome to us. There is a gay problem, and the problem is that there is a minority that is fundamentally different, and that a civil society must find a place for them that is acceptable to all affected. You get where I am going with this? Hmm, its funny to me how people have a habit of only focusing in on one part of anything they read. First you point to some fictional ivory tower standard when all my post points to is a standard logical deduction. I say explicitly in my post that trying to "prove" the points in this argument is a matter of futility so I give you the tools through which you can form a more informed opinion. I may finish it with my own conclusion but instead of going into some "killer" tangent, actually read the last two conclusions for their content. I am not the type of person that fights tooth and nail with people on the internet because they are wrong, but I ask If you are serious about having a discussion please actually contribute relevant information. If you were for instance able to provide a third, rational conclusion Id love to hear it. Well i think homosexuality is harmful but not a mental illness, as a third alternative. This is why I said gay problem in a general sense, your suicide statistic citations are a good example to support this point. However, mental illness is also characterized by a loss of control, but some homosexuals have no strict difficulty staying away from gay behavior. This is hard to show by surveys, but ask any of your older relatives before the gay rights movement. Gays simply fit in and got married, often to lesbians I presume. The lack of marital satisfaction could be counterbalanced by increased productivity due to workaholism or the benefits of raising ones own children. My best evidence, however, if you did not read my first post in this thread, is my own example. I have been with many women before, some I enjoyed sexually and and even companionshipwise. I tell you I am a homosexual, but I chose to be bisexual, leaning towards women mostly. I hope that clarifies things.
lmfao I'm sorry but I found the idea of gay men wanting to marry lesbian women and becoming workaholics hilarious. I don't understand how being gay is a 'problem' or harmful at all... it's not like we are asking too much to just be left alone and do what we want among ourselves, is it 
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EPT
