Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion.
On August 31 2011 00:09 nuMi22 wrote: Okay, time to make a confession about sexuality on a Starcraft forum.
This is directed towards the OP. (I'm not sure how active you are still in this thread).
For about 3/4 years I have been probably the biggest homophobe ever. Not to the point where I actively abuse gays for their sexuality or anything of the sort, but I have a lot of problems with gay people. I can't be around a gay person because they anger me in many different ways. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, I can't work out why a man that likes other men needs to talk in such an infuriating and feminine manner. I've read your replies to those questions but I'm still really not buying into it. Every time I hear a gay person speak like that I have to contain myself because it just infuriates me endlessy. I curse to myself or a close friend near me even though I know it's most likely wrong, but at the same time I can't help it.
Not just the voice, but the fact that I know what they're doing. Many people see a gay person and think 'harmless, perfectly fine with it'. All I see is the sexual actions they partake in, and it makes me disgusted and angry. It doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want to do what gays do. I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason. I'm not religious in the slightest. Like the OP, I'm a staunch atheist, so don't mistake my views as catholicism or anything of the sort. It's just how I view the world.
Basically I'm just a massive homophobe and I can't see myself ever changing that stance. Obviously I'm not completely proud of the hatred I hold, so I just want to see if anyone on here can convince me that I shouldn't feel this way for whatever reason. I don't know how to grow to a slight acceptance of gay people and as I get older I feel like I'm probably going to need a degree of tolerancy. Right now I can't even be in the presence of someone that's gay without grinding my teeth and clenching my fists.
Any advice?
So you say you have trouble with whats basically an illogical rage that you can't help but feel. While directing this rage towards a group of people you feel have an illogical attraction to the same sex that they can't help but feel. Do you not see the irony in this?
You find people that talk feminine infuriating, I find people who say stuff like "I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason" infuriating and I know the reason why, it's because it's stupid.
Ever hear of the jar of flies experiment? If you have two jars of flies one with lots of food and one with a medium amount of food, the jar with lots of food the fly population explodes,they over consume the food and wind up dying. In the jar with a medium amount of food it is more stable because they don't breed as fast due to the limited food so they last longer. The point being breeding as fast and as much as you can isn't always the best for propagating your species.
So even from a "the point of us being here is to continue to exist through propagation", it's not like gay people hurt that, in fact if anything is going make it hard for humans to continue existing it will be when there's too many humans.
Who knows maybe there's a gene that makes you an angry bigot, that's fine if you can't help the way you feel no ones forcing you to love gay people, just don't go crazy and attack or accost them. I don't know if it will actually convince you to stop feeling the way you do but if you keep in mind that they can't help the way they feel anymore then you can (according to you) then is it really fair to feel that hate and anger towards them? What if everyone felt hate and anger towards you for feeling hate and anger towards gay people? To the point where if they knew what you were thinking theyd grind their teeth and clench their fists. How uncomfortable would that make you feel?
I'm not sure it would bother me that much since I have it kind of ingrained in me that I'm right. I think there also might be a difference between 'irrational' love and 'irrational' hate, meaning the comparison maybe doesn't work so well. I do to some extent see your first point and I might try and remind myself that next time, so thank you. I'm not saying that the human race will die if they don't reproduce, and I'm not saying that we need everyone reproducing. I just think that every species should have the will to reproduce, yet we appear to be the only one with anomalies. I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing. I find it incredibly confusing that they don't have that 'natural' will to want to.
"A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals ( yes it's wikipedia but you can find other sources)
The whole "natural" argument is stupid, humans are the most "unnatural" animals on the planet in the first place and that's what makes them special in both good and bad ways. Medicine, Wars, religions,nations are all more "unnatural" than homosexuality.
Why does communicating to each other electronically through a sc forum not bother you but two guys loving each other does because it's not "natural". Do you have a problem with two women together too? probably not as much if it at all right?
You just don't like the idea of two dudes together because you're straight and have no interest in it so you can't understand it, that's fine but hating people for it is weird I think but if you can't help it w/e at least you seem more open minded then most people that would feel that way.
Also in response to " I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing" you didn't say why you disagree, you just said why you find it confusing that they don't have the urge to reproduce. My argument was that if continuing population growth is a net bad thing for the human race(due to spread of disease or lack of food) then having a portion of the population that doesn't reproduce can be a good thing. (Jar of flies example in previous post).
On August 31 2011 00:09 nuMi22 wrote: Okay, time to make a confession about sexuality on a Starcraft forum.
This is directed towards the OP. (I'm not sure how active you are still in this thread).
For about 3/4 years I have been probably the biggest homophobe ever. Not to the point where I actively abuse gays for their sexuality or anything of the sort, but I have a lot of problems with gay people. I can't be around a gay person because they anger me in many different ways. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, I can't work out why a man that likes other men needs to talk in such an infuriating and feminine manner. I've read your replies to those questions but I'm still really not buying into it. Every time I hear a gay person speak like that I have to contain myself because it just infuriates me endlessy. I curse to myself or a close friend near me even though I know it's most likely wrong, but at the same time I can't help it.
Not just the voice, but the fact that I know what they're doing. Many people see a gay person and think 'harmless, perfectly fine with it'. All I see is the sexual actions they partake in, and it makes me disgusted and angry. It doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want to do what gays do. I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason. I'm not religious in the slightest. Like the OP, I'm a staunch atheist, so don't mistake my views as catholicism or anything of the sort. It's just how I view the world.
Basically I'm just a massive homophobe and I can't see myself ever changing that stance. Obviously I'm not completely proud of the hatred I hold, so I just want to see if anyone on here can convince me that I shouldn't feel this way for whatever reason. I don't know how to grow to a slight acceptance of gay people and as I get older I feel like I'm probably going to need a degree of tolerancy. Right now I can't even be in the presence of someone that's gay without grinding my teeth and clenching my fists.
Any advice?
So you say you have trouble with whats basically an illogical rage that you can't help but feel. While directing this rage towards a group of people you feel have an illogical attraction to the same sex that they can't help but feel. Do you not see the irony in this?
You find people that talk feminine infuriating, I find people who say stuff like "I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason" infuriating and I know the reason why, it's because it's stupid.
Ever hear of the jar of flies experiment? If you have two jars of flies one with lots of food and one with a medium amount of food, the jar with lots of food the fly population explodes,they over consume the food and wind up dying. In the jar with a medium amount of food it is more stable because they don't breed as fast due to the limited food so they last longer. The point being breeding as fast and as much as you can isn't always the best for propagating your species.
So even from a "the point of us being here is to continue to exist through propagation", it's not like gay people hurt that, in fact if anything is going make it hard for humans to continue existing it will be when there's too many humans.
Who knows maybe there's a gene that makes you an angry bigot, that's fine if you can't help the way you feel no ones forcing you to love gay people, just don't go crazy and attack or accost them. I don't know if it will actually convince you to stop feeling the way you do but if you keep in mind that they can't help the way they feel anymore then you can (according to you) then is it really fair to feel that hate and anger towards them? What if everyone felt hate and anger towards you for feeling hate and anger towards gay people? To the point where if they knew what you were thinking theyd grind their teeth and clench their fists. How uncomfortable would that make you feel?
I'm not sure it would bother me that much since I have it kind of ingrained in me that I'm right. I think there also might be a difference between 'irrational' love and 'irrational' hate, meaning the comparison maybe doesn't work so well. I do to some extent see your first point and I might try and remind myself that next time, so thank you. I'm not saying that the human race will die if they don't reproduce, and I'm not saying that we need everyone reproducing. I just think that every species should have the will to reproduce, yet we appear to be the only one with anomalies. I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing. I find it incredibly confusing that they don't have that 'natural' will to want to.
It seems like your biggest issue is being unable to comprehend why a man would love another man. But why do you have to understand this? I don't see how a man being in love with another man affects your life whatsoever. Just because you can't fully understand something doesn't mean it should piss you off. At least your trying I guess. I am a straight man with no interest in other men (in the past or present) so I, like you, will never be able to fully understand. Religious or not, 'Do unto others as you would have others do unto you' is always applicable in society.
I'm actually a bit curious. Do gay people think they that are "ill" compared to straight people? Don't get me wrong, I respect gays just as much as straight people, and I have several gay friends, but when looking at homosexuality from a biologic point of view, it kind of defies the entire point of fighting for the survival of the species.
My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
There has been much talk in this thread about the biological nature of homosexuality and how it can be explained within the constricts of the current scientific understanding of evolution by means of natural selection.
So no, I don't think I am ill, I think I deviate from the statistical norm and that there is nothing wrong with that.
On August 31 2011 02:06 iLikeRain wrote: I'm actually a bit curious. Do gay people think they that are "ill" compared to straight people? Don't get me wrong, I respect gays just as much as straight people, and I have several gay friends, but when looking at homosexuality from a biologic point of view, it kind of defies the entire point of fighting for the survival of the species.
My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
Sigh this again, just read my post on this page / previous page on why that line of thinking doesn't make sense.
Your point is moot because we're not all gay and we won't be. Even if we were it wouldn't matter because our technology has advanced to the point where we can just artificially inseminate(next comes the part where you say it's not natural but neither is medicine). Certain infertile people aren't supposed to have children too that defies the "laws of nature" but they can through modern medicine.
A better point is, there's already too many people on earth with not enough resources for all of them to live comfortably, at this point less people reproducing is a net gain for over all quality of life and sustainability of the human race. I'm not saying everyone should go gay, I'm saying that a portion of the population being gay doesn't hurt/is beneficial to humanity as a whole. Which makes the reproduction argument moot.
On August 31 2011 00:09 nuMi22 wrote: Okay, time to make a confession about sexuality on a Starcraft forum.
This is directed towards the OP. (I'm not sure how active you are still in this thread).
For about 3/4 years I have been probably the biggest homophobe ever. Not to the point where I actively abuse gays for their sexuality or anything of the sort, but I have a lot of problems with gay people. I can't be around a gay person because they anger me in many different ways. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, I can't work out why a man that likes other men needs to talk in such an infuriating and feminine manner. I've read your replies to those questions but I'm still really not buying into it. Every time I hear a gay person speak like that I have to contain myself because it just infuriates me endlessy. I curse to myself or a close friend near me even though I know it's most likely wrong, but at the same time I can't help it.
Not just the voice, but the fact that I know what they're doing. Many people see a gay person and think 'harmless, perfectly fine with it'. All I see is the sexual actions they partake in, and it makes me disgusted and angry. It doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want to do what gays do. I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason. I'm not religious in the slightest. Like the OP, I'm a staunch atheist, so don't mistake my views as catholicism or anything of the sort. It's just how I view the world.
Basically I'm just a massive homophobe and I can't see myself ever changing that stance. Obviously I'm not completely proud of the hatred I hold, so I just want to see if anyone on here can convince me that I shouldn't feel this way for whatever reason. I don't know how to grow to a slight acceptance of gay people and as I get older I feel like I'm probably going to need a degree of tolerancy. Right now I can't even be in the presence of someone that's gay without grinding my teeth and clenching my fists.
Any advice?
So you say you have trouble with whats basically an illogical rage that you can't help but feel. While directing this rage towards a group of people you feel have an illogical attraction to the same sex that they can't help but feel. Do you not see the irony in this?
You find people that talk feminine infuriating, I find people who say stuff like "I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason" infuriating and I know the reason why, it's because it's stupid.
Ever hear of the jar of flies experiment? If you have two jars of flies one with lots of food and one with a medium amount of food, the jar with lots of food the fly population explodes,they over consume the food and wind up dying. In the jar with a medium amount of food it is more stable because they don't breed as fast due to the limited food so they last longer. The point being breeding as fast and as much as you can isn't always the best for propagating your species.
So even from a "the point of us being here is to continue to exist through propagation", it's not like gay people hurt that, in fact if anything is going make it hard for humans to continue existing it will be when there's too many humans.
Who knows maybe there's a gene that makes you an angry bigot, that's fine if you can't help the way you feel no ones forcing you to love gay people, just don't go crazy and attack or accost them. I don't know if it will actually convince you to stop feeling the way you do but if you keep in mind that they can't help the way they feel anymore then you can (according to you) then is it really fair to feel that hate and anger towards them? What if everyone felt hate and anger towards you for feeling hate and anger towards gay people? To the point where if they knew what you were thinking theyd grind their teeth and clench their fists. How uncomfortable would that make you feel?
I'm not sure it would bother me that much since I have it kind of ingrained in me that I'm right. I think there also might be a difference between 'irrational' love and 'irrational' hate, meaning the comparison maybe doesn't work so well. I do to some extent see your first point and I might try and remind myself that next time, so thank you. I'm not saying that the human race will die if they don't reproduce, and I'm not saying that we need everyone reproducing. I just think that every species should have the will to reproduce, yet we appear to be the only one with anomalies. I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing. I find it incredibly confusing that they don't have that 'natural' will to want to.
"A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals ( yes it's wikipedia but you can find other sources)
The whole "natural" argument is stupid, humans are the most "unnatural" animals on the planet in the first place and that's what makes them special in both good and bad ways. Medicine, Wars, religions,nations are all more "unnatural" than homosexuality.
Why does communicating to each other electronically through a sc2 forum not bother you but two guys loving each other does because it's not "natural". Do you have a problem with two women together too? probably not as much if it at all right?
You just don't like the idea of two dudes together because you're straight and have no interest in it so you can't understand it, that's fine but hating people for it is weird I think but if you can't help it w/e at least you seem more open minded then most people that would feel that way.
Also in response to " I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing" you didn't say why you disagree, you just said why you find it confusing that they don't have the urge to reproduce. My argument was that if continuing population growth is a net bad thing for the human race(due to spread of disease or lack of food) then having a portion of the population that doesn't reproduce can be a good thing. (Jar of flies example in previous post).
Thanks for your input, going to try and remind myself some of these things next time. I do have the same problem with women, but for less reasons. Obviously I'm not repulsed by it but at the same time it doesn't make any sense to me. You are right, I really don't like the idea of two dudes together, but I don't know what I'm meant to do to accept it.
On August 31 2011 02:06 iLikeRain wrote: I'm actually a bit curious. Do gay people think they that are "ill" compared to straight people? Don't get me wrong, I respect gays just as much as straight people, and I have several gay friends, but when looking at homosexuality from a biologic point of view, it kind of defies the entire point of fighting for the survival of the species.
My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
Well, seen from a biological point of view the homosexuals in a group of animals or pre-humans look after the children like the mothers. In larger animal groups the education of the children gets better the more homosexual animals are in that group. That's why there always is and always has been a certain amount of homosexuals in groups. Personally, I don't feel ill (at least not in the point of finding males attractive). I feel different from average people of course, but just because my brain works a bit different, I don't need to feel ill.
On August 31 2011 00:09 nuMi22 wrote: Okay, time to make a confession about sexuality on a Starcraft forum.
This is directed towards the OP. (I'm not sure how active you are still in this thread).
For about 3/4 years I have been probably the biggest homophobe ever. Not to the point where I actively abuse gays for their sexuality or anything of the sort, but I have a lot of problems with gay people. I can't be around a gay person because they anger me in many different ways. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, I can't work out why a man that likes other men needs to talk in such an infuriating and feminine manner. I've read your replies to those questions but I'm still really not buying into it. Every time I hear a gay person speak like that I have to contain myself because it just infuriates me endlessy. I curse to myself or a close friend near me even though I know it's most likely wrong, but at the same time I can't help it.
Not just the voice, but the fact that I know what they're doing. Many people see a gay person and think 'harmless, perfectly fine with it'. All I see is the sexual actions they partake in, and it makes me disgusted and angry. It doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want to do what gays do. I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason. I'm not religious in the slightest. Like the OP, I'm a staunch atheist, so don't mistake my views as catholicism or anything of the sort. It's just how I view the world.
Basically I'm just a massive homophobe and I can't see myself ever changing that stance. Obviously I'm not completely proud of the hatred I hold, so I just want to see if anyone on here can convince me that I shouldn't feel this way for whatever reason. I don't know how to grow to a slight acceptance of gay people and as I get older I feel like I'm probably going to need a degree of tolerancy. Right now I can't even be in the presence of someone that's gay without grinding my teeth and clenching my fists.
Any advice?
So you say you have trouble with whats basically an illogical rage that you can't help but feel. While directing this rage towards a group of people you feel have an illogical attraction to the same sex that they can't help but feel. Do you not see the irony in this?
You find people that talk feminine infuriating, I find people who say stuff like "I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason" infuriating and I know the reason why, it's because it's stupid.
Ever hear of the jar of flies experiment? If you have two jars of flies one with lots of food and one with a medium amount of food, the jar with lots of food the fly population explodes,they over consume the food and wind up dying. In the jar with a medium amount of food it is more stable because they don't breed as fast due to the limited food so they last longer. The point being breeding as fast and as much as you can isn't always the best for propagating your species.
So even from a "the point of us being here is to continue to exist through propagation", it's not like gay people hurt that, in fact if anything is going make it hard for humans to continue existing it will be when there's too many humans.
Who knows maybe there's a gene that makes you an angry bigot, that's fine if you can't help the way you feel no ones forcing you to love gay people, just don't go crazy and attack or accost them. I don't know if it will actually convince you to stop feeling the way you do but if you keep in mind that they can't help the way they feel anymore then you can (according to you) then is it really fair to feel that hate and anger towards them? What if everyone felt hate and anger towards you for feeling hate and anger towards gay people? To the point where if they knew what you were thinking theyd grind their teeth and clench their fists. How uncomfortable would that make you feel?
I'm not sure it would bother me that much since I have it kind of ingrained in me that I'm right. I think there also might be a difference between 'irrational' love and 'irrational' hate, meaning the comparison maybe doesn't work so well. I do to some extent see your first point and I might try and remind myself that next time, so thank you. I'm not saying that the human race will die if they don't reproduce, and I'm not saying that we need everyone reproducing. I just think that every species should have the will to reproduce, yet we appear to be the only one with anomalies. I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing. I find it incredibly confusing that they don't have that 'natural' will to want to.
"A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals ( yes it's wikipedia but you can find other sources)
The whole "natural" argument is stupid, humans are the most "unnatural" animals on the planet in the first place and that's what makes them special in both good and bad ways. Medicine, Wars, religions,nations are all more "unnatural" than homosexuality.
Why does communicating to each other electronically through a sc2 forum not bother you but two guys loving each other does because it's not "natural". Do you have a problem with two women together too? probably not as much if it at all right?
You just don't like the idea of two dudes together because you're straight and have no interest in it so you can't understand it, that's fine but hating people for it is weird I think but if you can't help it w/e at least you seem more open minded then most people that would feel that way.
Also in response to " I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing" you didn't say why you disagree, you just said why you find it confusing that they don't have the urge to reproduce. My argument was that if continuing population growth is a net bad thing for the human race(due to spread of disease or lack of food) then having a portion of the population that doesn't reproduce can be a good thing. (Jar of flies example in previous post).
Thanks for your input, going to try and remind myself some of these things next time. I do have the same problem with women, but for less reasons. Obviously I'm not repulsed by it but at the same time it doesn't make any sense to me. You are right, I really don't like the idea of two dudes together, but I don't know what I'm meant to do to accept it.
Well having an open mind is a good start, the more you are able to logically break down your biases maybe the less rage you'll feel. Lots of feelings like fear/anger can be irrational but being able to logically tell yourself why its irrational can help fight the instinctive feeling vs if you don't have that to fall back onto there's no reason you won't just keep feeling that way. Do you have rage issues with anything else? maybe it's an anger problem not just a dislike for homos problem. Also NP, ty for having an open mind and not just dismissing my input.
Fags aren't doing anything unnatural by acting upon their urges, the argument that two men don't lay together to produce offspring is just retarded. How often do straight guys actually intend to impregnate a women while laying with her?
I fully support gay marriage, be it a lesbian or a fag. Gotta love Louis CK: "How do I explain this to my kid? You should stop being in love with each other, so I don't have to talk to my kid."
I think a good way to "understand" homosexuality is by thinking of your own sexual fantasies. I guess most people have at least some kind of fantasy that is not completely normal(despite being fully heterosexual. You can not fight these fantasies(hmm, my english vocabulary is pretty bad so pls forgive me using the same words over and over again) you just have to accept them.
On August 31 2011 03:31 KainiT wrote: I think a good way to "understand" homosexuality is by thinking of your own sexual fantasies. I guess most people have at least some kind of fantasy that is not completely normal(despite being fully heterosexual. You can not fight these fantasies(hmm, my english vocabulary is pretty bad so pls forgive me using the same words over and over again) you just have to accept them.
To be honest, I assume that latent gay desires in some straight men are what cause a lot of the towards fags in the first place.
If you're stuck with a wife you stopped loving twenty years ago and have certain unfulfilled desires, I guess you can get mad at the guy who can do what you want to.
On August 31 2011 02:06 iLikeRain wrote: My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
Of course! But homosexuality is rather rare so that argument is rather flawed. Personally, I think condoms pose a larger threat to humanity and economics but that is a whole different topic.
But lots of gay couples do have kids, but they often adopt or have a surrogate mother.
On August 31 2011 00:09 nuMi22 wrote: Okay, time to make a confession about sexuality on a Starcraft forum.
This is directed towards the OP. (I'm not sure how active you are still in this thread).
For about 3/4 years I have been probably the biggest homophobe ever. Not to the point where I actively abuse gays for their sexuality or anything of the sort, but I have a lot of problems with gay people. I can't be around a gay person because they anger me in many different ways. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, I can't work out why a man that likes other men needs to talk in such an infuriating and feminine manner. I've read your replies to those questions but I'm still really not buying into it. Every time I hear a gay person speak like that I have to contain myself because it just infuriates me endlessy. I curse to myself or a close friend near me even though I know it's most likely wrong, but at the same time I can't help it.
Not just the voice, but the fact that I know what they're doing. Many people see a gay person and think 'harmless, perfectly fine with it'. All I see is the sexual actions they partake in, and it makes me disgusted and angry. It doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want to do what gays do. I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason. I'm not religious in the slightest. Like the OP, I'm a staunch atheist, so don't mistake my views as catholicism or anything of the sort. It's just how I view the world.
Basically I'm just a massive homophobe and I can't see myself ever changing that stance. Obviously I'm not completely proud of the hatred I hold, so I just want to see if anyone on here can convince me that I shouldn't feel this way for whatever reason. I don't know how to grow to a slight acceptance of gay people and as I get older I feel like I'm probably going to need a degree of tolerancy. Right now I can't even be in the presence of someone that's gay without grinding my teeth and clenching my fists.
Any advice?
So you say you have trouble with whats basically an illogical rage that you can't help but feel. While directing this rage towards a group of people you feel have an illogical attraction to the same sex that they can't help but feel. Do you not see the irony in this?
You find people that talk feminine infuriating, I find people who say stuff like "I'm a big proponent of prolonging the human race, because after all that's what we're here for and like all other animals, we have the 'tools' to do that. I feel like gays ignore this obvious rule of nature and that pisses me off for some reason" infuriating and I know the reason why, it's because it's stupid.
Ever hear of the jar of flies experiment? If you have two jars of flies one with lots of food and one with a medium amount of food, the jar with lots of food the fly population explodes,they over consume the food and wind up dying. In the jar with a medium amount of food it is more stable because they don't breed as fast due to the limited food so they last longer. The point being breeding as fast and as much as you can isn't always the best for propagating your species.
So even from a "the point of us being here is to continue to exist through propagation", it's not like gay people hurt that, in fact if anything is going make it hard for humans to continue existing it will be when there's too many humans.
Who knows maybe there's a gene that makes you an angry bigot, that's fine if you can't help the way you feel no ones forcing you to love gay people, just don't go crazy and attack or accost them. I don't know if it will actually convince you to stop feeling the way you do but if you keep in mind that they can't help the way they feel anymore then you can (according to you) then is it really fair to feel that hate and anger towards them? What if everyone felt hate and anger towards you for feeling hate and anger towards gay people? To the point where if they knew what you were thinking theyd grind their teeth and clench their fists. How uncomfortable would that make you feel?
I'm not sure it would bother me that much since I have it kind of ingrained in me that I'm right. I think there also might be a difference between 'irrational' love and 'irrational' hate, meaning the comparison maybe doesn't work so well. I do to some extent see your first point and I might try and remind myself that next time, so thank you. I'm not saying that the human race will die if they don't reproduce, and I'm not saying that we need everyone reproducing. I just think that every species should have the will to reproduce, yet we appear to be the only one with anomalies. I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing. I find it incredibly confusing that they don't have that 'natural' will to want to.
"A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals ( yes it's wikipedia but you can find other sources)
The whole "natural" argument is stupid, humans are the most "unnatural" animals on the planet in the first place and that's what makes them special in both good and bad ways. Medicine, Wars, religions,nations are all more "unnatural" than homosexuality.
Why does communicating to each other electronically through a sc2 forum not bother you but two guys loving each other does because it's not "natural". Do you have a problem with two women together too? probably not as much if it at all right?
You just don't like the idea of two dudes together because you're straight and have no interest in it so you can't understand it, that's fine but hating people for it is weird I think but if you can't help it w/e at least you seem more open minded then most people that would feel that way.
Also in response to " I do however completely disagree with your point that suggests gay people are in a way 'helping' by not reproducing" you didn't say why you disagree, you just said why you find it confusing that they don't have the urge to reproduce. My argument was that if continuing population growth is a net bad thing for the human race(due to spread of disease or lack of food) then having a portion of the population that doesn't reproduce can be a good thing. (Jar of flies example in previous post).
Thanks for your input, going to try and remind myself some of these things next time. I do have the same problem with women, but for less reasons. Obviously I'm not repulsed by it but at the same time it doesn't make any sense to me. You are right, I really don't like the idea of two dudes together, but I don't know what I'm meant to do to accept it.
I've got to say that this series of posts makes me happy and gives me hope. Good on you for looking critically at your actions and going about making sense of them in a logical fashion. Despite what you think, you're quite a way ahead than most.
For the record, I (as a gay man) don't hold it against you that homosexuality has such a negative effect on you. In the majority of cases it's not someones decision to hate gays - it's simply conditioning. The coming out process is testament to this. Imagine, you, with your current outlook finding out that you are attracted to men, and there is nothing you can do about it. This is what the coming out process is about - overcoming your own anger/disgust/hate that societal factors have impressed on you. Working though this process is not easy and that's only the first step. Once you've gotten to grips with it yourself you still have to deal with family and friends.
We hated gays too! Only we're forced to deal with it. We're not as different as you think.
I just wanted to say that the OP is pretty good. I came in here with the very same question that he is answering in the OP, and I have to say that I liked the answer and I feel like I can understand a little bit more.
On August 31 2011 02:06 iLikeRain wrote: My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
Of course! But homosexuality is rather rare so that argument is rather flawed. Personally, I think condoms pose a larger threat to humanity and economics but that is a whole different topic.
But lots of gay couples do have kids, but they often adopt or have a surrogate mother.
Homosexuality was absolutely mainstream love in ancient Greece. Women were for kids, love was between men.
It didn't stop them to reproduce, and the Greek civilization was one of the most flourishing in history. So even if homosexuals are not a minority or rare, it doesn't seem to endanger the specie. I haven't heard of a civilization that crashed because people didn't make children anymore.
Now, someone smart called Sigmund Freud has proven something like a hundred years ago that humans are naturally bisexuals, and that sexual identity is a product of social repression (or second level repression for homosexuals).
That explains why bisexuality could have been mainstream in a society were homosexuality was not repressed. Explaining that with genetics would be really really silly.
You may find disgusting to have a penis in your mouth (or to lick a vagina) it really doesn't mean that it is constitutive of your being and that you were born this way. On the opposite, your disgust would tend to prove that the desire exists somewhere inside you but is violently rejected. I say that because, if you don't find disgusting to imagine a woman with a penis in her mouth, there is really no reason to find a man with a penis in his mouth any more disgusting. Disgust is a psychic defense.
If I had to say, I always had girlfriends and have never been attracted by males (maybe a couple of time when I was 15-16), but, if the idea of sexual activity between men doesn't arouse me especially, I don't find it disgusting or bothering. Maybe because the idea that I could be bi in a certain way is really not a problem.
I actually just created an account to comment on this thread since I've been lurking on TL for awhile.
First, this thread is a great idea. (However nerdy it may sound) I actually found my past bf on an online gaming forum!
Second, I have to say as a gay guy I despise it when people say "he is the girl in the relationship" or "he is the guy n the relationship". No. I'm a man and I'm dating another man and even though when we have sex one is on "top" and one is on "bottom" it doesn't make the other any more or less of a man.
Sticking with the whole masculinity issue, I'm not attracted to "flamers" at all and frankly they annoy the hell out of me. They give "gays" a bad name and make straight people even more intolerant. HOWEVER, I have heard from people with more experience being out and gay that flamers become less annoying over time...
On August 31 2011 02:06 iLikeRain wrote: My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
Of course! But homosexuality is rather rare so that argument is rather flawed. Personally, I think condoms pose a larger threat to humanity and economics but that is a whole different topic.
But lots of gay couples do have kids, but they often adopt or have a surrogate mother.
Homosexuality was absolutely mainstream love in ancient Greece. Women were for kids, love was between men.
It didn't stop them to reproduce, and the Greek civilization was one of the most flourishing in history. So even if homosexuals are not a minority or rare, it doesn't seem to endanger the specie. I haven't heard of a civilization that crashed because people didn't make children anymore.
Now, someone smart called Sigmund Freud has proven something like a hundred years ago that humans are naturally bisexuals, and that sexual identity is a product of social repression (or second level repression for homosexuals).
That explains why bisexuality could have been mainstream in a society were homosexuality was not repressed. Explaining that with genetics would be really really silly.
You may find disgusting to have a penis in your mouth (or to lick a vagina) it really doesn't mean that it is constitutive of your being and that you were born this way. On the opposite, your disgust would tend to prove that the desire exists somewhere inside you but is violently rejected. I say that because, if you don't find disgusting to imagine a woman with a penis in her mouth, there is really no reason to find a man with a penis in his mouth any more disgusting. Disgust is a psychic defense.
If I had to say, I always had girlfriends and have never been attracted by males (maybe a couple of time when I was 15-16), but, if the idea of sexual activity between men doesn't arouse me especially, I don't find it disgusting or bothering. Maybe because the idea that I could be bi in a certain way is really not a problem.
I disagree with bisexual being "natural" for every human. I'm all for gay rights and I have nothing against gays (they're human beings and I view the gay rights movement akin to the black rights movement of the 20th century) but my genes are programmed for me to only want to be intimate with the opposite race for reproduction, these genes have been carried on from generation to generation or else I wouldn't be typing this right now.
Somebody being gay or bisexual could be a by product of the random mutations that occur when genes are passed from two people to their off spring. Similar to the blue eyes effect.
The argument that gays are unnatural because they do not reproduce (and thus do not contribute) is ridiculous. Aside from the overpopulation angle, gay people are among the leading demographic adopting children in America. The families that do so not only love each other enough to create a stable, long term environment for children, they take in children that otherwise are wards of the state. The gay community pulls its weight.
Gay people are just like straight people. Some are selfish and hedonistic, and others are responsible citizens and family men (or women). Any rational argument against gay marriage applies to straight marriage.
On August 31 2011 05:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 31 2011 03:59 Shiragaku wrote:
On August 31 2011 02:06 iLikeRain wrote: My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
Of course! But homosexuality is rather rare so that argument is rather flawed. Personally, I think condoms pose a larger threat to humanity and economics but that is a whole different topic.
But lots of gay couples do have kids, but they often adopt or have a surrogate mother.
Homosexuality was absolutely mainstream love in ancient Greece. Women were for kids, love was between men.
It didn't stop them to reproduce, and the Greek civilization was one of the most flourishing in history. So even if homosexuals are not a minority or rare, it doesn't seem to endanger the specie. I haven't heard of a civilization that crashed because people didn't make children anymore.
Now, someone smart called Sigmund Freud has proven something like a hundred years ago that humans are naturally bisexuals, and that sexual identity is a product of social repression (or second level repression for homosexuals).
That explains why bisexuality could have been mainstream in a society were homosexuality was not repressed. Explaining that with genetics would be really really silly.
You may find disgusting to have a penis in your mouth (or to lick a vagina) it really doesn't mean that it is constitutive of your being and that you were born this way. On the opposite, your disgust would tend to prove that the desire exists somewhere inside you but is violently rejected. I say that because, if you don't find disgusting to imagine a woman with a penis in her mouth, there is really no reason to find a man with a penis in his mouth any more disgusting. Disgust is a psychic defense.
If I had to say, I always had girlfriends and have never been attracted by males (maybe a couple of time when I was 15-16), but, if the idea of sexual activity between men doesn't arouse me especially, I don't find it disgusting or bothering. Maybe because the idea that I could be bi in a certain way is really not a problem.
I disagree with bisexual being "natural" for every human. I'm all for gay rights and I have nothing against gays (they're human beings and I view the gay rights movement akin to the black rights movement of the 20th century) but my genes are programmed for me to only want to be intimate with the opposite race for reproduction, these genes have been carried on from generation to generation or else I wouldn't be typing this right now.
Somebody being gay or bisexual could be a by product of the random mutations that occur when genes are passed from two people to their off spring. Similar to the blue eyes effect.
Then how do you explain that virtually everybody was bi in ancient Greece?
They had a massive presence of gay genes? Why didn't it carry on?
The thing is that in Greece there were no taboo, no repression about homosexuality. And so most people were having sex with both genders.
People would love it to be genetic, but it really isn't.
You will also notice that in our society, the taboo about female homosexuality is much less strong than about male homosexuality, and, no surprise, there are a much bigger proportion of women than men who would tell you that they have already been attracted by someone of the same sex.
On August 31 2011 05:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 31 2011 03:59 Shiragaku wrote:
On August 31 2011 02:06 iLikeRain wrote: My point being: if we were all gay, humanity would cease to exist.
Of course! But homosexuality is rather rare so that argument is rather flawed. Personally, I think condoms pose a larger threat to humanity and economics but that is a whole different topic.
But lots of gay couples do have kids, but they often adopt or have a surrogate mother.
Homosexuality was absolutely mainstream love in ancient Greece. Women were for kids, love was between men.
It didn't stop them to reproduce, and the Greek civilization was one of the most flourishing in history. So even if homosexuals are not a minority or rare, it doesn't seem to endanger the specie. I haven't heard of a civilization that crashed because people didn't make children anymore.
Now, someone smart called Sigmund Freud has proven something like a hundred years ago that humans are naturally bisexuals, and that sexual identity is a product of social repression (or second level repression for homosexuals).
That explains why bisexuality could have been mainstream in a society were homosexuality was not repressed. Explaining that with genetics would be really really silly.
You may find disgusting to have a penis in your mouth (or to lick a vagina) it really doesn't mean that it is constitutive of your being and that you were born this way. On the opposite, your disgust would tend to prove that the desire exists somewhere inside you but is violently rejected. I say that because, if you don't find disgusting to imagine a woman with a penis in her mouth, there is really no reason to find a man with a penis in his mouth any more disgusting. Disgust is a psychic defense.
If I had to say, I always had girlfriends and have never been attracted by males (maybe a couple of time when I was 15-16), but, if the idea of sexual activity between men doesn't arouse me especially, I don't find it disgusting or bothering. Maybe because the idea that I could be bi in a certain way is really not a problem.
I disagree with bisexual being "natural" for every human. I'm all for gay rights and I have nothing against gays (they're human beings and I view the gay rights movement akin to the black rights movement of the 20th century) but my genes are programmed for me to only want to be intimate with the opposite race for reproduction, these genes have been carried on from generation to generation or else I wouldn't be typing this right now.
Somebody being gay or bisexual could be a by product of the random mutations that occur when genes are passed from two people to their off spring. Similar to the blue eyes effect.
Then how do you explain that virtually everybody was bi in ancient Greece?
They had a massive presence of gay genes? Why didn't it carry on?
The thing is that in Greece there were no taboo, no repression about homosexuality. And so most people were having sex with both genders.
People would love it to be genetic, but it really isn't.
You will also notice that in our society, the taboo about female homosexuality is much less strong than about male homosexuality, and, no surprise, there are a much bigger proportion of women than men who would tell you that they have already been attracted by someone of the same sex.
Where are you getting this idea that everyone in Greece was bi? Even if they were all bi outsiders could of had sex with the women or vice versa and reproduced......We cant be sure of where gay comes from but my educated scientific opinion is that there's a good chance that its genetics.
Why would your genes want you to have sex with the same gender knowing ahead of time that having sex with your own gender accomplishes nothing.......
You cant prove to me that it isn't genetics and I cant prove to you that it is (at this moment in time), even though it being genetics seems the most logical to me so please don't post your opinions as being fact's such as "People would love it to be genetic, but it really isn't." when you have no proof to back up such claims.
EPT
