On April 08 2017 06:11 Danzo wrote: Anyone got the feeling Day9 is already burned out with Dota? Maybe it's because he hasn't had lessons with Purge, but he seems pretty fixed on just spamming his same comfort heroes and just playing it out for one day out of the week.
I've also wondered this, although I don't think he is burned out in this case. But if you've followed Day9 since the BW dailies, I think there's a sense that for anything other than BW, his passions don't run quite as deep. We kind of saw him fall away quietly from SC2 and now it's kind of a constant thought in the back of my head, is he going to do it again.
Who knows. But I'm enjoying the show so far and I hope whatever he feels about the game, he sees it through to its logical conclusion.
I dont think he is burned out either. I think it's fine to spam your comfort heroes.
I mean, one probably should try different heroes to see how they all work but... there's no necessity to do it.
Regarding the game itself, I was a huge fan of SC:BW and didn't like SC2 all that much. I think I'd put dota on SC:BW level, there's much... things to do, to experiment, to improve. I don't know, the game looks "right" to me, still. And it has been ~17 years...
I am currently watching this week's VODs. And watching Day[9] learning how Enchantress works is very funny to watch.
I know Purge has been going to events and such (and will also go away for Kiev), but I've missed his sessions. It is nice that he is back, at least for a few weeks
Honestly, I thought he would improve much faster than what's actually happening. He was 2.2k almost exactly 3 months ago and he's 2.7k now, after 8 lessons with Purge. For some reasons he seems bad at everything, even basic rts-style control. He's chasing an enemy just by rightclicking on him, and when the hero goes highground, it takes Day9 a good .5 seconds to issue another command to his hero, because he lost vision. He just flat out doesn't press buttons, frequently dies with his items off cooldown not having used them at all. Despite being overwhelmed by how amazingly efficient treads switching is in the lesson in Purge, he just doesn't do it almost at all in his games. I don't think I've seen him click on an enemy (or allied) hero to check their items a single time, even when he's dead for a minute. He doesn't seem to watch the minimap basically at all. I would understand him doing stupid decisions, bad item builds, picking the wrong hero and whatnot, but he does so many mistakes that are just flat out laziness or not caring, they're not caused by lack of experience or knowledge.
Honestly, if he worked on these issues, rather than dissecting the philosophy of what it means to be a carry with Purge, he would climb way faster.
On April 19 2017 20:19 cecek wrote: Honestly, I thought he would improve much faster than what's actually happening. He was 2.2k almost exactly 3 months ago and he's 2.7k now, after 8 lessons with Purge. For some reasons he seems bad at everything, even basic rts-style control. He's chasing an enemy just by rightclicking on him, and when the hero goes highground, it takes Day9 a good .5 seconds to issue another command to his hero, because he lost vision. He just flat out doesn't press buttons, frequently dies with his items off cooldown not having used them at all. Despite being overwhelmed by how amazingly efficient treads switching is in the lesson in Purge, he just doesn't do it almost at all in his games. I don't think I've seen him click on an enemy (or allied) hero to check their items a single time, even when he's dead for a minute. He doesn't seem to watch the minimap basically at all. I would understand him doing stupid decisions, bad item builds, picking the wrong hero and whatnot, but he does so many mistakes that are just flat out laziness or not caring, they're not caused by lack of experience or knowledge.
Honestly, if he worked on these issues, rather than dissecting the philosophy of what it means to be a carry with Purge, he would climb way faster.
I think you're wrong about his improvement being slow. After less than 500 games total starting at 2k, he's 2.8k, with a ranked winrate of ~58%. That's IMO rapid improvement for someone that new to the game.
On April 19 2017 20:19 cecek wrote: Honestly, I thought he would improve much faster than what's actually happening. He was 2.2k almost exactly 3 months ago and he's 2.7k now, after 8 lessons with Purge. For some reasons he seems bad at everything, even basic rts-style control. He's chasing an enemy just by rightclicking on him, and when the hero goes highground, it takes Day9 a good .5 seconds to issue another command to his hero, because he lost vision. He just flat out doesn't press buttons, frequently dies with his items off cooldown not having used them at all. Despite being overwhelmed by how amazingly efficient treads switching is in the lesson in Purge, he just doesn't do it almost at all in his games. I don't think I've seen him click on an enemy (or allied) hero to check their items a single time, even when he's dead for a minute. He doesn't seem to watch the minimap basically at all. I would understand him doing stupid decisions, bad item builds, picking the wrong hero and whatnot, but he does so many mistakes that are just flat out laziness or not caring, they're not caused by lack of experience or knowledge.
Honestly, if he worked on these issues, rather than dissecting the philosophy of what it means to be a carry with Purge, he would climb way faster.
I think you're wrong about his improvement being slow. After less than 500 games total starting at 2k, he's 2.8k, with a ranked winrate of ~58%. That's IMO rapid improvement for someone that new to the game.
IIRC, their original plan was to have the show run for 4 months and to climb 100mmr a week, so he would be 3.8k after the 16 weeks. Many people (me included) expected him to climb even faster than that, considering he is getting coached , him saying that his goal is to improve and him being a former rts pro player, the precedent being that pro players tend to be great in all games, more or less. Forsen (pro player being used loosely here) calibrated at like 3.6k, 2GD is/was over 5k, Scarlet was pushing into 6k, some csgo pros are also in the 6k bracket, and there's many more examples. And meanwhile, Day9 is still 2.7k after 3 months of being coached and trying to improve.
Day9 is getting old(er), he's running a company, a show. He's (passed?) not trying very hard, he's here to have fun and try to understand / mess around the Dota2 philosophy. More than gaining MMR.
I mean he says it himself : "I couldn't care less about MMR" (I think it was during the game where Purge forgot to actually be a coach and went on to play with Day9 instead). And I believe those words are genuine, he doesn't look to be trying hard to me.
Just have a good time, and "improve". Not climbing the thing as fast as possible.
On April 20 2017 02:17 Murlox wrote: My take on that :
Day9 is getting old(er), he's running a company, a show. He's (passed?) not trying very hard, he's here to have fun and try to understand / mess around the Dota2 philosophy. More than gaining MMR.
I mean he says it himself : "I couldn't care less about MMR" (I think it was during the game where Purge forgot to actually be a coach and went on to play with Day9 instead). And I believe those words are genuine, he doesn't look to be trying hard to me.
Just have a good time, and "improve". Not climbing the thing as fast as possible.
Except he's made a goal last week to get 3k pretty soon.
On April 20 2017 02:17 Murlox wrote: My take on that :
Day9 is getting old(er), he's running a company, a show. He's (passed?) not trying very hard, he's here to have fun and try to understand / mess around the Dota2 philosophy. More than gaining MMR.
I mean he says it himself : "I couldn't care less about MMR" (I think it was during the game where Purge forgot to actually be a coach and went on to play with Day9 instead). And I believe those words are genuine, he doesn't look to be trying hard to me.
Just have a good time, and "improve". Not climbing the thing as fast as possible.
Except he's made a goal last week to get 3k pretty soon.
That is hardly a goal. Noone is denying that he wants to improve, he just doesn't have any drive or motivation to actually be good at Dota, which is probably what people expected from this show.
What I am noticing is he lacks a lot of understanding of the different heros and how they work. I was watching the game he played as SpaceCow in the recent Ganking Practice video and he was really confused by Enigma, Centaur Warrunner and Puck. I realize that while I have not played that much Dota I have watched a lot of it so I get what all the heros do from watching tournaments and players streams. I think a lot of his lack of climbing the ladder is he is still learning about each hero as he is playing and it is distracting him from playing really well.
Concerning Day9s 'slow' improvement: He explains quite often how he can only implement a few new things at once. In addition he doesn't read up on heroes and tactics online. I think it makes a lot of sense because Purge and Day 9 are producing a tutorial series with topics that build on each other. It is good for the show that he learns accordingly and doesn't use concepts that haven't been explained by Purge beforehand.
For new players most helpful is probably the way he deals with difficulties. He doesn't hide them but answers them with an optimistic attitude. Very helpful to gain mmr!
I think him and Purge should do a pro replay analysis and have purge explain some of the things he's taught in them, that would feel like a good segment imo (though probably boring for the people who aren't as into dota that watch his stream). During his recent segment watching some of the Kiev games I thought that it would be really helpful if Purge was there to answer some of the questions he was asking to himself
I think tt's starting to click for him that sometimes dota is not a pure efficiency game like starcraft
Honestly its pretty stupid people are ragging on him for his slow improvement. At least he's IMPROVING. Literally the vast majority of the DOTA playerbase is completely stuck at their mmr because of their mentalities. They either completely stagnate or go lower. Day9 is at least not among the majority. I'm sure for people around that level it must be more informative to see someone paired with a high level coach seeing the process of going from a "2k-3k player mentality and consideration checklist" to eventually reaching the higher mmrs which I too often see lower players complaining about not being able to get out of.
I'm not sure if people are realizing how long it takes to climb up the MMR ladder.
With a stomping 60% winrate, you need 20 games to gain a mere 100 MMR, which is an entire week worth of games for most players (around 2-3 hours a day). Yes, you might win 4 consecutive games and climb 10 MMR, but there will be games when you lose 4 consecutive games and get back to where you were immediately. An average of 60% winrate usually means your initial MMR rating was off, rather than you developing over time.
With a more realistic 55% winrate when you see people climb the latter by getting better, that's 40 games and two weeks worth of games.. for just 100 MMR. Climbing 1,000 MMR with that 55% winrate (which, again means you can somehow continue improving constantly) that's 400 games and 20 weeks at the minimum. 5 freaking months.
Considering he is experimenting with roles and heroes he's not comfortable with, I think Sean's progression is very reasonable in 175 ranked games. To expect more was unrealistic to begin with.
On May 02 2017 22:55 Mum_Chamber wrote: I'm not sure if people are realizing how long it takes to climb up the MMR ladder.
With a stomping 60% winrate, you need 20 games to gain a mere 100 MMR, which is an entire week worth of games for most players (around 2-3 hours a day). Yes, you might win 4 consecutive games and climb 10 MMR, but there will be games when you lose 4 consecutive games and get back to where you were immediately. An average of 60% winrate usually means your initial MMR rating was off, rather than you developing over time.
With a more realistic 55% winrate when you see people climb the latter by getting better, that's 40 games and two weeks worth of games.. for just 100 MMR. Climbing 1,000 MMR with that 55% winrate (which, again means you can somehow continue improving constantly) that's 400 games and 20 weeks at the minimum. 5 freaking months.
Considering he is experimenting with roles and heroes he's not comfortable with, I think Sean's progression is very reasonable in 175 ranked games. To expect more was unrealistic to begin with.
Plus in general it would be pretty bad for him to spam game off stream and then show up every week playing significantly better. It ruins the tutorial aspect of the series a bit if you don't get to see Sean implementing the things Purge talks about step by step.
I like the take that some of the latter comments had on his tempo. I think it just really doesn't matter at all to him. He is here for beginners and for our and his own entertainment as well. Keep in mind that he doesn't want to be the next Miracle! He's not trying to "go pro". I think he is quite comfortable and actually also busy with everything else he has to do (aka. work and real life :D).
So considering that, I am actually quite impressed how good he is doing! I am playing Dota for maaaany many years. I still remember the time, when Lina and Prophet both had a global teleport and were quite alike (which to us ment in those days ... they would play the courier :D). The days when gold could be shared!! Imagine THAT. Hehe. ^^ I am so used to the 100+ heroes by now, I forgot how it feels to an outsider. It's just an overwhelming mass of things to learn! Heroes, mechanics, flaming, dealing with flame, etc. ... try to explain the game to your girlfriend while watching Major and you'll know what I mean.
His tempo is exactly what new players need and more importantly, they need his insight, his bright spirit and his take on the games philosophy in order to stay with the game through the start ... they will learn everything else in their own time. I love the show for what it is. Not the "becoming a pro afap", but "XXX leans Dota with Day[9] and Purge". I already recommended it to some friends who just started playing and they found it quite helpful!
PS: I also like that he learns all those things that one would need to cast/host future tournaments. He can be a great caster (in my opinion at least ... people seem to have different takes on that) and I would love to see him stay in the community.
EPT
