OD who went mid vs luna and get owned. Mind you he has bottle (and obviously he didnt get any rune).
Our riki is forced to solo safelane (against VS+tide) and being a chen in that game I nearly wanna cry.

LeglessPuppy

United States190 Posts

August 24 2012 17:40 GMT

#2443

I don't understand why people start with a bottle. If you can guarantee that you will have excellent rune control, that is one thing. Most people though will take something like zues mid and start bottle. Not only are you gimping yourself, but if you are against something like a storm spirit or QoP, good luck filling your bottle.

My group decided that we don't care about losses anymore (most of them are busy lately) so we just queue up SD and RD along with CM for the faster match times. Here is how the first 3 games went so far.

Game 1: Single Draft: We are absolutely shitting on them. The score before their Skele King leaves was like 14-2.

Game 2: Captains Mode: We draft a very strong team comp. The only problem we had was an AA that decided autoattacking creeps to shove the lane was a good idea. When I asked him to stop the response I got was "it is all luck if i get a last hit since I do so little damage anyway" as he is just autoattacking away. We proceed to have a good game despite the fact that he couldn't land an ult to save his life (he said he was playing from Brazil. Surprisingly a BR that spoke some good english). We proceed to lose the game after about an hour as their morphling just got time to farm (see: AA shoving lanes). Overall in a 4v5 (he landed maybe 3 ults all game with spamming it) we had a pretty fun game.

Game 3: Random Draft: Worst. Skeleton King. Ever. The enemy team took an ursa. Skele King never used his stun to help the team during a fight or when we were trying to kill ursa (I say trying because of shadow blade and a lack of dust or gem -_-). The ONLY time he used his stun was to try to get a kill on a Silencer who is IN THE BACK OF THEIR TEAM. He would just run all the way through their team to get himself killed. Had he landed a few stuns in the early game, we win by 25minutes.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

August 24 2012 17:53 GMT

#2444

zeuz is one of the few heroes who isn't that bad off with bottle first lol
it's either that or 3-4 branches and a bunch of mana pots and bottle rush anyway

LeglessPuppy

United States190 Posts

August 24 2012 21:10 GMT

#2445

Well the point was if you are going vs someone with better rune control than you, don't start bottle or you will be very easy to harass out of lane (since usually the heroes with better rune control have some sort of longer range ability to harass with and once your 3 charges are gone, back to base or bottle crow)

Bash

Finland1533 Posts

August 25 2012 00:39 GMT

#2446

Invoker vs Tinker mid.

Every. Single. Game.

BurningSera

Ireland19621 Posts

August 25 2012 01:32 GMT

#2447

there is almost no reason to start with a bottle unless you randomed the hero or someone got a fly cour at start.

ControlMonkey

Australia3109 Posts

August 25 2012 07:03 GMT

#2448

Fuck lag.

Narcind

Sweden2489 Posts

August 25 2012 09:45 GMT

#2449

Bottle first is pretty bad even if you random, it's much better to just spend that gold on like completing a wraith band/null talisman if you were normally going to go tango, salve, 3 branches and slippers of agility/mantle of intelligence as it makes it MUCH easier to win your lane.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

August 25 2012 14:56 GMT

#2450

bottle first is really good if you random for a lot of heroes (like tiny and zeuz and dk and es and more), and it's not bad on most heroes
un-randommed bottle first is okay on zeuz, generally a million mana pots/branches is better but it's not bad
it's workable on a lot of other heroes as well (like dk or es or beastmaster etc) but generally other builds are better

aintz

Canada5624 Posts

August 25 2012 16:36 GMT

#2451

bottle first on random is acceptable if your hero is capable of getting runes and actually use mana, but i dont really like it. bottle first without random is just plain dumb.

aintz

Canada5624 Posts

August 25 2012 16:37 GMT

#2452

On August 24 2012 23:29 BurningSera wrote:
OD who went mid vs luna and get owned. Mind you he has bottle (and obviously he didnt get any rune).
Our riki is forced to solo safelane (against VS+tide) and being a chen in that game I nearly wanna cry.

riki/chen can kill vs/tide provided you get decent creeps. unless you're one of those chens that dont do anything but farm.

akatama

Romania982 Posts

August 25 2012 18:09 GMT

#2453

Instead of going bottle first you can try to go mid with just 1 salve, 2 branches and one +3 main stat item. This way you are left with 250g and need only 350g for bottle (about 8-9 creeps). You can easily get them by 1:30 and have bottle delivered to you via courier, ready to bottle the 2 min rune. It's risky, but way better compared to bottle first.

Math: by 1:30 there should be 3 creep waves dead (the 0:00, 0:30 and 1:00 ones) with the 1:30 ones are on the way. So you need 8 out of 12 creeps. maybe 1-2 fewer since you get close to 1g/second.

PassiveAce

United States18076 Posts

August 25 2012 19:44 GMT

#2454

^Blitz and others excellent players do that on stream in some situations.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

August 26 2012 03:06 GMT

#2455

it depends a lot on the hero
like zeuz for example doesn't get that much stats so you're better off just stacking mana pots and branches, and bottle first works okay depending on the situation

heishe

Germany2284 Posts

August 26 2012 05:48 GMT

#2456

OK, players are bad, but when you want to help them, the resulting situation always reminds me of this:

cilinder007

Slovenia7251 Posts

August 26 2012 06:16 GMT

#2457

On August 26 2012 03:09 akatama wrote:
Instead of going bottle first you can try to go mid with just 1 salve, 2 branches and one +3 main stat item. This way you are left with 250g and need only 350g for bottle (about 8-9 creeps). You can easily get them by 1:30 and have bottle delivered to you via courier, ready to bottle the 2 min rune. IT's risky, but way better compared to bottle first.

Math: by 1:30 there should be 3 creep waves dead (the 0:00, 0:30 and 1:00 ones) with the 1:30 ones are on the way. So you need 8 out of 12 creeps. maybe 1-2 fewer since you get close to 1g/second.

that 1g/seconds is quite a bit of gold by 1:30, ~90 but I think it might be closer to 100 or something ?

akatama

Romania982 Posts

August 26 2012 06:37 GMT

#2458

The exact sum is 1g/0.8 seconds, and that comes to about 75g/minute (or about 112g at 1:30), but I rounded the values for easier calculations (for example I go along the lines for 1cs = 40g, despite it being a bit higher on average). Still I feel 1:30 is the latest the courier should leave the base with your bottle if it's a ground one, since he only has 300 ms and it will take some time to travel and you want to pop a bottle charge or two for more harass mana until the rune spawns.

cilinder007

Slovenia7251 Posts

August 26 2012 07:25 GMT

#2459

but to really rush bottle you should just get 1 salve and 3 branches meaning you can get it by 1 minute so you can take advantage of all 3 charges by the time the 2nd rune spawns

BurningSera

Ireland19621 Posts

August 26 2012 12:30 GMT

#2460

It's not like every game work out exactly as you wish. Sometimes you just feel like going bottle+some branches when you get 800+gold at start for a ganker/pusher mid hero, that way you never need to go back base at all and gank like a mad man (or queen as a qop).

On August 26 2012 01:37 aintz wrote:

Show nested quote +

riki/chen can kill vs/tide provided you get decent creeps. unless you're one of those chens that dont do anything but farm.

no net creep or ursa. all crit wolf and mana burn creep, may be one centaur for the first 7mins or something. Chen+a carry vs dual lane is almost always a nightmare unless the oppo played passively for whatever reason. you cant pull and they have vision. plus getting cour+ward (for hardlane at start and then no one in team getting any ward) really didnt help at all.