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On August 19 2014 02:13 Sn0_Man wrote: ur so incredibly results oriented on ur builds with such small sample sizes lel.
However, I think it's a credit that you try hard to personally test all these builds yourself despite incorporating so much from the community.
I think you fucked up your first sentence.
Basically all the games I play are testing a round of builds and heroes. Recently it's been Clockwerk, ET (Lane/Mid), Weaver, and now Kunkka.
Before it was Naga Siren, Rubick, Ogre, etc. etc.
I play about 4-5 games a day if I can fit them in every day.
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On August 19 2014 02:17 BobMcJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 02:13 Sn0_Man wrote: ur so incredibly results oriented on ur builds with such small sample sizes lel.
However, I think it's a credit that you try hard to personally test all these builds yourself despite incorporating so much from the community. Would be interesting for guide creators to be able to pull stats from the guide system, like the guide author being able to see the winrate of people that play the game with their guide selected or something.
among many, many things
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On August 19 2014 02:21 idonthinksobro wrote:hey torte do you have multiple dota accounts or did you just active the stats sharing for 4 games before you turned it off again? http://www.dotabuff.com/players/37082864/heroes or is that not your account?
That's my account, I played TMM with some friends in a pre-made team in which they had public accounts The_Fame, Alurr, etc.
Naturally, I got wrecked and dragged them down haha. I think one has MoM on Lich for the hell of it, only movement speed items for Spirit Breaker and something else dumb.
They only let me play Lich or Ogre because I'm terrible.
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no i definitely didn't.
u play like 2 games with a build and judge it based off of how that game went lol. As if that definitively proves anything. Although I'll grant u that ur experience with a build is probably more relevant to what a guide should read than the current pro meta.
Also i saw that account and was like "wow torte upgraded to 4 VHS games in a row so gud" then u said u were queuing with alurr lol oh
But again, I'm not flaming too much because I think you try incredibly hard to provide this tool and the fact that you not only collate all this info but also put yourself out there to test everything is laudable and ur doing a pretty good job considering how hard it is to keep this shit up to date.
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On August 19 2014 02:46 Sn0_Man wrote: no i definitely didn't.
u play like 2 games with a build and judge it based off of how that game went lol. As if that definitively proves anything. Although I'll grant u that ur experience with a build is probably more relevant to what a guide should read than the current pro meta.
Also i saw that account and was like "wow torte upgraded to 4 VHS games in a row so gud" then u said u were queuing with alurr lol oh
But again, I'm not flaming too much because I think you try incredibly hard to provide this tool and the fact that you not only collate all this info but also put yourself out there to test everything is laudable and ur doing a pretty good job considering how hard it is to keep this shit up to date.
Oh, it doesn't read right or it reads funny to me??
As I said, I rotate between a variety of heroes everyday when I can to play their builds. I take community feedback, try the builds, check Dotabuff to see what the pros use and check out their replays and then throughout the week I keep doing those builds (4-5 heroes).
Yeah, no. I'm not VHS at all. I'm a very average player.
ps: the obivous downside is that I'm one guy and I have to get comfortable with 127 different guides which is obviously impossible, thankfully you guys are here to say XYZ hero or guide is fucked up (like today with Kunkka which I would have never noticed because I hardly ever play him).
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+ Show Spoiler [Oct 30] +From our initial start in February 2013 to October 30, we have risen to 3,704,581 combined subscribers
A difference of 628,547
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A difference of 628,547
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A difference of 1,554,445
Average Growth of subscribers is 77,066.25 Growth Percentage is 21.73% Top 10 least popular guides (top being the least popular):Top 10 most popular guides (top being the most popular): + Show Spoiler [Feb 22] +After ~15 days (Feb. 5 to Feb. 22), we have risen from 8,708,486 to 10,197,41 combined subscribers
A difference of 1,488,955 Average Growth of subscribers is 90,242.84 Growth Percentage is 17.10% Top 10 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):Top 10 most popular guides (top being the most popular):It has officially been 1 year since the guide system release (and when I started this project)! + Show Spoiler [Mar 10] +After ~15 days (Feb. 22 to Mar. 10), we have risen from 10,197,451 to 11,694,519 combined subscribers
A difference of 1,496,978 Average Growth of subscribers is 99,953.15 Growth Percentage is 14.68% 5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):5 most popular guides (top being the most popular):Notable Growths in Subscriptions:- Meepo (1,164 -> 28,208)
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- Lion (14,324 -> 34,266)
- Slark (Lane) (15,396 -> 30,426)
- Weaver (25,342 -> 45,731)
- Clinkz (31,168 -> 61,833)
- Mirana (34,910 -> 68,183)
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- Shadow Fiend (79,311 -> 101,547)
- Terrorblade (86,050 -> 122,345)
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A difference of 1,331,162 Average Growth of subscribers is 111,330.607 Growth Percentage is 11.38% 5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):5 most popular guides (top being the most popular):Notable Growths in Subscriptions:- Lifestealer (Jungle) (737,338 -> 757,516)
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- Lion (34,266 -> 52,853)
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A difference of 2,153,318 Average Growth of subscribers is 193,195.55 Growth Percentage is 9.88% 5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):5 most popular guides (top being the most popular):Notable Growths in Subscriptions:- Ancient Apparition (Lane) (2,948 -> 28,665)
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- Enchantress (75,926 -> 90,296)
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- Sand King (318,806 -> 356,684)
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A difference of 1,905,089 Average Growth of subscribers is 208,559.17 Growth Percentage is 7.95% 5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):5 most popular guides (top being the most popular):Notable Growths in Subscriptions:- Ancient Apparition (Lane) (28,665 -> 54,426)
- Lone Druid (Jungle) (28,934 -> 50,379)
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- Juggernaut (163,994 -> 197,295)
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A difference of 1,893,767 Average Growth of subscribers is 218,544.44 Growth Percentage is 7.32% 5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):- Shadow Shaman (Middle) (286)
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- Nyx Assassin
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- Enigma (165,573 -> 197,295)
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After ~15 days (August 3rd to August 18th), we have risen from 30,003,730 to 32,005,885 combined subscriptions
A difference of 2,002,155 Average Growth of subscribers is 248,107.64 Growth Percentage is 6.67
5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):
- Shadow Shaman (Middle) (402)
- Elder Titan (Lane) (369)
- Skywrath Mage (Lane) (345)
- Tusk (Middle) (307)
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- Naix (Jungle)
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- Skywrath Mage (Middle)
- Sven
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Associated Reddit Topic - August 18th
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- Growth of Subscribers still manages to stay at 2 million since August 3rd (or June).
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- Lifestealer (Jungle) Guide maintains its highest rank at 988,087 subscribers
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- Sven's popularity is skyrocketing in the ranks, just passing 500,000 subscribers
- Top 24 guides are approx. 400k subscribers or higher each (up to 900,000+ in a guide)
- Top 50 guides are approx. 300k subscribers or higher each
- Top 88 guides are approx. 200k subscribers or higher each
- Top 110 guides are approx. 100k subscribers or higher each
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On August 19 2014 02:01 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 22:37 evilfatsh1t wrote: why would you suggest a new kunkka player to play around his x mark. if someone is using your guide its because they are bad and dont know how to play properly. logically their opponents are bad as well. then you dont need 2 or 3 lvls of x before lvl 7 because their opponents are bad enough to get hit by the combo without it anyway. the best pub stomp build against bad players is 2-3-0-1 at 6 and 2-4-0-1 at 7. maximise damage, go out of sight for a second, throw boat and torrent and hit with tidebringer. opponent dies because he stood around trying to farm creeps I think ignoring X Marks all together is detrimental. I think the X to Torrent is a good combination and then they learn to boat. I am personally a terrible Kunkka player, he is among my least played however, but I still prefer having two in X to be able to remotely useful in battle and ensure at least the Torrent. I like both systems, for Mid; I assume the player is confident enough in Kunkka to play him in a, considered, crucial role, such as mid. The laning one can be more QW. Just played ET mid with the new build, it was fantastic!
im not saying ignore x forever, but getting x before lvl 6 or 7 means you need to roam to make use of your set up. theres no point of getting x just to harrass with torrent because higher lvls of tidebringer does a better job at it. it also helps you control your lane in mid too but someone at a low lvl trying to learn from this guide isnt going to know art of roaming and ganking. and even if he does gank, as long as a teammate has a stun or a slow torrents are still easy enough to land. therefore its more productive for a low lvl player to either just sit in his lane and farm and go for the wombo combo at lvl 6 or 7 without x, rather than to be active around the map early and set up kills
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I think the Bane guide (and probably some similar ones) should have a situational alternative to the core Urn for the early game when a teammate already built one.
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On August 19 2014 02:46 Sn0_Man wrote: no i definitely didn't.
u play like 2 games with a build and judge it based off of how that game went lol. As if that definitively proves anything. Although I'll grant u that ur experience with a build is probably more relevant to what a guide should read than the current pro meta.
Also i saw that account and was like "wow torte upgraded to 4 VHS games in a row so gud" then u said u were queuing with alurr lol oh
But again, I'm not flaming too much because I think you try incredibly hard to provide this tool and the fact that you not only collate all this info but also put yourself out there to test everything is laudable and ur doing a pretty good job considering how hard it is to keep this shit up to date.
I think you misunderstood the purpose of the whole project. Torte explains better but, the idea is not about creating the most optimal builds(if any) and most optimal play styles or whatever. He is trying to give a heads up to the people who are not completely familiar and didn't spend hundreds of game with with a hero. Sometimes he change without trying to much because the concept and later play with that.
It is largely Torte's effort with some suggestions from the community. It doesn't have to prove anything. Is it useful for anyone? Then well done sir.
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On August 19 2014 14:48 Buckyman wrote: I think the Bane guide (and probably some similar ones) should have a situational alternative to the core Urn for the early game when a teammate already built one.
That's pretty situational for one specific item. What did you have in mind?
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On August 19 2014 11:36 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 02:01 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 18 2014 22:37 evilfatsh1t wrote: why would you suggest a new kunkka player to play around his x mark. if someone is using your guide its because they are bad and dont know how to play properly. logically their opponents are bad as well. then you dont need 2 or 3 lvls of x before lvl 7 because their opponents are bad enough to get hit by the combo without it anyway. the best pub stomp build against bad players is 2-3-0-1 at 6 and 2-4-0-1 at 7. maximise damage, go out of sight for a second, throw boat and torrent and hit with tidebringer. opponent dies because he stood around trying to farm creeps I think ignoring X Marks all together is detrimental. I think the X to Torrent is a good combination and then they learn to boat. I am personally a terrible Kunkka player, he is among my least played however, but I still prefer having two in X to be able to remotely useful in battle and ensure at least the Torrent. I like both systems, for Mid; I assume the player is confident enough in Kunkka to play him in a, considered, crucial role, such as mid. The laning one can be more QW. Just played ET mid with the new build, it was fantastic! im not saying ignore x forever, but getting x before lvl 6 or 7 means you need to roam to make use of your set up. theres no point of getting x just to harrass with torrent because higher lvls of tidebringer does a better job at it. it also helps you control your lane in mid too but someone at a low lvl trying to learn from this guide isnt going to know art of roaming and ganking. and even if he does gank, as long as a teammate has a stun or a slow torrents are still easy enough to land. therefore its more productive for a low lvl player to either just sit in his lane and farm and go for the wombo combo at lvl 6 or 7 without x, rather than to be active around the map early and set up kills
I think it could go either way, the person may be new to Kunkka as a whole but then they would play side-lane with him as it is generally safer.
If they'd play mid, there's a general understanding that you'd be more active, especially with his combination; thus the build would be setting up for some early ganks (naturally not all mid heroes gank) in which case, the combination with X would be much more akin to that mindset.
There's also the stipulation that the player knows the basics of roaming/ganking. It could go either way, the most feedback I get is that people use these guides when they random a hero they aren't familiar with; so it sounds like this appeals to people who want to play the hero as it would typically be played which is what we're debating.
For higher groups, I'm seeing max Torrent/Tidebringer as well, but they're item build revolves around movement: force staff/Blink Dagger which frames Kunkka's whole playstyle differently.
*New Guides aren't permanent, so this may change to be more Torrent/Tidebringer, but I have to play and try it out and get more feedback as well. Both the lane and mid version will change.
I agree with you thought that early levels of X seem a bit anxious to get so early in the game.
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United States47024 Posts
PA needs MKB listed as a possible extension. Huskar I think HoD should be moved to situational. It's a good item eventually, but you don't usually want it all that early. Heart and AC need to be added to Extension, and S&Y, Meka, and Phase Boots need to be added to situational.
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I didn't have any specific replacement item in mind for Bane; a more experienced player should make that call. But getting double urn on a team is probably not worth it, and the guide should say so.
W.R.T Wraith King, I don't think a (Lane) guide can do him justice when he can either (Farm) or (Support) in lane and mostly uses different items.
Farmer only items: Stout Shield, Armlet, BKB, Maelstrom Support only items: Courier, Wards, Mek, Vlad's (?), Arcane Boots (?) Shared Core Items: Tangos, Magic Stick, Treads (?), Blink Dagger
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theres no way u can buy mek on wk. Arcanes suck on him too imo since as support u only need 1 stun anyway before u feed -> full mana and as carry u need treads for ias etc.
Armlet sux compared to mael/mjol. U can still buy blademail/mjollnir on support wk tho it just takes a while to acquire. Often somebody else mjollniring u is better admittedly.
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United States47024 Posts
It depends a lot on how fights get engaged. Armlet has stronger up-front damage if your team has a lineup where you Blink->stun->smack them a few times and they're dead with supporting spells. Mael damage is much more dispersed and is better if your team can't kill people straight-up like that and needs the stronger dispersed damage from Mael procs and Mjollnir's Static Charge.
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For PA I would probably have MKB rather than Halberd in extension items
And for WK it would probably be best to have 2 separate guides, one for support and one for carry.
Also, in the storm spirit guide, i would hold off on that last point in electric vortex at level 10 and instead take remnant at 10/12/13 and take the last point in vortex at 14
And, I would add blink dagger to situational items on timbersaw.
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On August 20 2014 05:22 Buckyman wrote: I didn't have any specific replacement item in mind for Bane; a more experienced player should make that call. But getting double urn on a team is probably not worth it, and the guide should say so.
W.R.T Wraith King, I don't think a (Lane) guide can do him justice when he can either (Farm) or (Support) in lane and mostly uses different items.
Farmer only items: Stout Shield, Armlet, BKB, Maelstrom Support only items: Courier, Wards, Mek, Vlad's (?), Arcane Boots (?) Shared Core Items: Tangos, Magic Stick, Treads (?), Blink Dagger
I can add it as a note.
Support WK works out well in a coordinated team, but he doesn't fly in pubs. I threw away about spread out 10 games trying to do it and it didn't work out because of the expectancy of the team and 2. Usually other more slotted heroes for support are picked.
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