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On August 18 2014 21:03 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 20:59 Laserist wrote:On August 18 2014 20:54 Torte de Lini wrote:On August 18 2014 20:34 BobMcJohnson wrote:
Clockwerk guide has Arcanes/Mek/Blademail as core. Not that its bad, but its quite situational.
Going arcanes/mek (while ok if your team really needs a mek carrier) hurts your solo killing potential quite a lot.
I'd probably change it to just Phase(if ahead/snowballing) or Treads(if behind/need hp) + Blademail.
Also going blademail after mek doesn't seem that good as it delays the blademail until a point where the ennemy carry should have bkb. When going mek, skipping blademail would probably be better.
I'd also add Urn in situational/early game items. ghost scepter/bkb too.
Maybe keep Arcanes/Mek as a separate option like you have in other guides. I need to play Clockwerk again as I haven't recently (I'm mainly trying to figure out how to play Elder Titan mid which isn't going too well). What would you say is the full core item build? I can do a more "support" section for arcane/mek for him. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=143016376Any advice for this Elder Titan mid? it definitely does not work I feel Elder Titan still gets completely melted in most cases. Which build & items did you try for mid ET? Edit: grammar too hard Straight Core: Bottle -> Boots -> Wand -> Phase -> Drums -> BKB into a very late AC Skill: W E W E W R W E E Q Q Q Q The Lane version is actually quite nice, though Soul Ring and Tranquil's feels a bit long. But with Medallion and Force Staff, its nice.
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Re: Clockwerk
Full core is probably just Brown boots/Stick/Blademail, rest is mostly situational. For the guide's sake I'd go with Treads/Wand/Blademail.
I usually go Stout/Branch x2/Tango/Salve
Brown boots + Stick/Wand
At this point I get Urn most of the time. I really really (really!) like it on Clock, but its not really standard in th sense where I dont see pros getting it often. The stats and the nuke/heal are just so fucking perfect though. If someone already has an urn I just skip it, I sometimes get a bracer if I feel I really need the hp (but its rare)
Upgrade boots: If I'm snowballing/ahead I get Phase for better chasing/solo kills, If my team is behind and I need better survivabitily I get Treads. Sometimes I stay on brown boots if I'm lacking money and I want blademail faster.
Then Blademail. I like to get the int part first when I'm doing good, helps quite a lot with mana combined with Urn.
After that, its really situational:
My default go-to option is Aghs, but I'll get a forcestaff if I'm getting wrecked in teamfights so that I can hook > cog > forcestaff out to stay alive.
Ghost Scepter/Bkb as needed like on most heroes.
Shivas is cool if you can afford it, game is usually over at that point though.
Some pros like bottle. I usually dont get it unless I'm mid.
I need to experiment more with Tranquils.
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Razor
Changed Guide to Middle
Removed one Iron Branch
Removed Phase Boots
Added Treads to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Refresher's Orb to Extension Items
Removed Monkey King Bar
Removed Magic Wand
Added Bottle to Situational Items
Ursa (Jungle/Lane)
New Skill Build (Jungle): E W E W Q R E W W Q (1. Fury Swipes 2. Overpower 3. Earthshock)
Added Boots of Speed
Moved Blink Dagger before Phase Boots
Kunkka (Lane)
New Skill Build: W Q W E W R W E Q Q R Q W W R (1. Tidebringer 2. Torrent 3. X Marks the Spot)
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
New Guide
Weaver (Lane)
Skill Build: W E W Q W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Shukuchi 2. The Swarm 3. Geminate Attack)
Starting Items: 2x Tangoes, Ring of Protection, 3. 3x Iron Branch
Early Game: Boots of Speed, Magic Wand
Core Items: Ring of Aquila, Power Treads, Linken's Sphere
Situational Items: Medallion of Courage, Radiance, Black King Bar
Extension Items: Desolator, Daedalus, Butterfly, Monkey King Bar
New Guide
Kunkka (Middle)
Skill Build: W Q W E E R W W E Q R Q Q Q E R (1. Tidebringer 2. Torrent 3. X Marks The Spot)
Starting Items: Tango, 3x Iron Branch, Stout Shield
Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed, Magic Wand
Core Items: Phase Boots, Shadow Blade, Daedalus
Situational Items: Drums of Endurance, Black King Bar
Extension Items: Monkey King Bar, Assault Cuirass, Heart of Tarrasque
Elder Titan (Lane)
Starting Items: 3x Iron Branches, Tangos, Ring of Protection, Clarity
Clockwerk
Added new Tab: Core Items/Core - Support
Core Items: Phase Boots -> Blade Mail
Added Heaven's Halberd to Extension Items
Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Added Black King Bar to Situational Items
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On August 18 2014 21:12 BobMcJohnson wrote:
Re: Clockwerk
Full core is probably just Brown boots/Stick/Blademail, rest is mostly situational. For the guide's sake I'd go with Treads/Wand/Blademail.
I usually go Stout/Branch x2/Tango/Salve
Brown boots + Stick/Wand
At this point I get Urn most of the time. I really really (really!) like it on Clock, but its not really standard in th sense where I dont see pros getting it often. The stats and the nuke/heal are just so fucking perfect though. If someone already has an urn I just skip it, I sometimes get a bracer if I feel I really need the hp (but its rare)
Upgrade boots: If I'm snowballing/ahead I get Phase for better chasing/solo kills, If my team is behind and I need better survivabitily I get Treads. Sometimes I stay on brown boots if I'm lacking money and I want blademail faster.
Then Blademail. I like to get the int part first when I'm doing good, helps quite a lot with mana combined with Urn.
After that, its really situational:
My default go-to option is Aghs, but I'll get a forcestaff if I'm getting wrecked in teamfights so that I can hook > cog > forcestaff out to stay alive.
Ghost Scepter/Bkb as needed like on most heroes.
Shivas is cool if you can afford it, game is usually over at that point though.
Some pros like bottle. I usually dont get it unless I'm mid.
I need to experiment more with Tranquils.
Just updated, gonna play some games with it now.
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On August 18 2014 21:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
Straight Core: Bottle -> Boots -> Wand -> Phase -> Drums -> BKB into a very late AC
Skill: W E W E W R W E E Q Q Q Q
The Lane version is actually quite nice, though Soul Ring and Tranquil's feels a bit long. But with Medallion and Force Staff, its nice.
Bulba prefers 0-4-4-0 because ulti is very situational for mid early(even for lane), I agree with him.
I thought the play style and the opponent mid reduce your effectiveness with that hero since item build is perfectly fine(you have no armor whole game but anyways).
I feel like you have to be aggressive during laning(spirit and run/hit to the face) and tp for skirmishes & pressure on sidelanes. Ganking will probably not work with him unless your other picks are designed for it.
I agree he is nerfed a lot but playing his strengths(teamfight, strong counter initiation, siege) should work regardless.
Why kunkka mid 1-2-2-1? Either 1-1-3-1(Mushi) or power torrent imho.
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On August 18 2014 21:31 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 21:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
Straight Core: Bottle -> Boots -> Wand -> Phase -> Drums -> BKB into a very late AC
Skill: W E W E W R W E E Q Q Q Q
The Lane version is actually quite nice, though Soul Ring and Tranquil's feels a bit long. But with Medallion and Force Staff, its nice. Bulba prefers 0-4-4-0 because ulti is very situational for mid early(even for lane), I agree with him. I thought the play style and the opponent mid reduce your effectiveness with that hero since item build is perfectly fine(you have no armor whole game but anyways). I feel like you have to be aggressive during laning(spirit and run/hit to the face) and tp for skirmishes & pressure on sidelanes. Ganking will probably not work with him unless your other picks are designed for it. I agree he is nerfed a lot but playing his strengths(teamfight, strong counter initiation, siege) should work regardless. Why kunkka mid 1-2-2-1? Either 1-1-3-1(Mushi) or power torrent imho.
I'm thinking the ult should be later, that seems right. I'd have to double-check it.
Also for Kunkka I am not entirely sure, I thought it was 1-2-2-1 for harass lane, 2 X for the Torrent combo and ult for ganking.
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That has been discussed in every thread but, you can dodge the boat of 2 level xmark + torrent + boat combo. Good players always dodge the boat and the missed damage is insane. 3 level xmark + boat + torrent is better than having one point on torrent in every way since it guarantees boat damage and stun.
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On August 18 2014 21:55 Laserist wrote:
That has been discussed in every thread but, you can dodge the boat of 2 level xmark + torrent + boat combo. Good players always dodge the boat and the missed damage is insane. 3 level xmark + boat + torrent is better than having one point on torrent in every way since it guarantees boat damage and stun.
This is getting pretty situational as is. Ultimately, mid needs a direction to either be pure damage or get some tidebringer.
In some 5k matches, it looks like most just max tidebringer + torrent
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On August 18 2014 21:55 Laserist wrote:
That has been discussed in every thread but, you can dodge the boat of 2 level xmark + torrent + boat combo. Good players always dodge the boat and the missed damage is insane. 3 level xmark + boat + torrent is better than having one point on torrent in every way since it guarantees boat damage and stun.
you don't have to immediatly fight at lvl 6, if you really want to get 3x you can do that at level 7 just fine, 2 levels tide early helps a lot in the lane.
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On August 18 2014 22:01 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 21:55 Laserist wrote:
That has been discussed in every thread but, you can dodge the boat of 2 level xmark + torrent + boat combo. Good players always dodge the boat and the missed damage is insane. 3 level xmark + boat + torrent is better than having one point on torrent in every way since it guarantees boat damage and stun. you don't have to immediatly fight at lvl 6, if you really want to get 3x you can do that at level 7 just fine, 2 levels tide early helps a lot in the lane.
So then the skill build would need to be: W Q W E E R E and then max Torrent or keep going with Tidebringer?
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=301735208
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United States47024 Posts
The 3rd rank of X so early is also predicated heavily on the player being able to use rank 3 X to combo with Torrent when Ship is down as well. I'm not convinced that a player who is playing Kunkka for the first time would know the timing well enough for that to be the case.
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The baseline of user knowledge we use is that the player is familiar with the hero (the abilities on a recognition level) but either has had almost no first-hand experience or barely any.
I think the skill build as is is ok albeit decent. My only complaint is that Torrent is maxed so late ):
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On August 18 2014 22:01 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 21:55 Laserist wrote:
That has been discussed in every thread but, you can dodge the boat of 2 level xmark + torrent + boat combo. Good players always dodge the boat and the missed damage is insane. 3 level xmark + boat + torrent is better than having one point on torrent in every way since it guarantees boat damage and stun. you don't have to immediatly fight at lvl 6, if you really want to get 3x you can do that at level 7 just fine, 2 levels tide early helps a lot in the lane.
I don't want to rain on this thread anymore but 1 more level of tide probably doesn't win the lane for you but level 6 boat combo may. Just my thoughts.
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United States47024 Posts
1-1-3-1 only has about 450-ish burst damage, though, because X is a non-damaging skill. Ship being able to net you a solo-kill isn't guaranteed either, depending on the lane opponent. The increased harassment power of each Tidebringer rank isn't inconsequential.
As I said last page, there's no "perfect" skill order for Kunkka--any semi-reasonable skill order is going to have some justification because of how each skill sort of fills it's own niche and how game-dependent it ultimately is. So long as the guide skill order isn't outrageous, I don't think it's worth arguing over.
Honestly, if I were teaching someone to play Kunkka, I would tell them to play their first 5 games only ever having rank 2 X and leveling stats over ranks 3 and 4. Then playing their next 10-15 or so games only ever having rank 3 X and taking stats over rank 4 X. but there's no way to express that in a guide.
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why would you suggest a new kunkka player to play around his x mark.
if someone is using your guide its because they are bad and dont know how to play properly. logically their opponents are bad as well. then you dont need 2 or 3 lvls of x before lvl 7 because their opponents are bad enough to get hit by the combo without it anyway. the best pub stomp build against bad players is 2-3-0-1 at 6 and 2-4-0-1 at 7. maximise damage, go out of sight for a second, throw boat and torrent and hit with tidebringer. opponent dies because he stood around trying to farm creeps
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On August 18 2014 22:27 TheYango wrote:
1-1-3-1 only has about 450-ish burst damage, though, because X is a non-damaging skill. Ship being able to net you a solo-kill isn't guaranteed either, depending on the lane opponent. The increased harassment power of each Tidebringer rank isn't inconsequential.
As I said last page, there's no "perfect" skill order for Kunkka--any semi-reasonable skill order is going to have some justification because of how each skill sort of fills it's own niche and how game-dependent it ultimately is. So long as the guide skill order isn't outrageous, I don't think it's worth arguing over.
Honestly, if I were teaching someone to play Kunkka, I would tell them to play their first 5 games only ever having rank 2 X and leveling stats over ranks 3 and 4. Then playing their next 10-15 or so games only ever having rank 3 X and taking stats over rank 4 X. but there's no way to express that in a guide.
yes you can just put 2 or 3 levels of x in the skillbuild, and stats after that. Write in the description that players can get more x-mark if they know the timings.
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On August 18 2014 22:37 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why would you suggest a new kunkka player to play around his x mark.
if someone is using your guide its because they are bad and dont know how to play properly. logically their opponents are bad as well. then you dont need 2 or 3 lvls of x before lvl 7 because their opponents are bad enough to get hit by the combo without it anyway. the best pub stomp build against bad players is 2-3-0-1 at 6 and 2-4-0-1 at 7. maximise damage, go out of sight for a second, throw boat and torrent and hit with tidebringer. opponent dies because he stood around trying to farm creeps
I think ignoring X Marks all together is detrimental. I think the X to Torrent is a good combination and then they learn to boat.
I am personally a terrible Kunkka player, he is among my least played however, but I still prefer having two in X to be able to remotely useful in battle and ensure at least the Torrent.
I like both systems, for Mid; I assume the player is confident enough in Kunkka to play him in a, considered, crucial role, such as mid. The laning one can be more QW.
Just played ET mid with the new build, it was fantastic!
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ur so incredibly results oriented on ur builds with such small sample sizes lel.
However, I think it's a credit that you try hard to personally test all these builds yourself despite incorporating so much from the community.
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On August 19 2014 02:13 Sn0_Man wrote:
ur so incredibly results oriented on ur builds with such small sample sizes lel.
However, I think it's a credit that you try hard to personally test all these builds yourself despite incorporating so much from the community.
Would be interesting for guide creators to be able to pull stats from the guide system, like the guide author being able to see the winrate of people that play the game with their guide selected or something.
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EPT
