On December 23 2015 12:55 Logo wrote: I'm lost, you quoted me about Windranger then said something that seems to apply more to Zeus. I was saying for WR putting Aghs->Blink is good as core because newbies who don't like blink daggers will just go to a dmg item and those that don't know should get used to using blink if they want to play WR.
yup i misinterpretted what you were replying to bc bela replied to the zeus agha discussion earlier and we were advocating mobility. i thought you were quoting him there and didn't read thoroughly my mistake!
@velzi, from what i gathered from your post, you were talking about lvl 7 with maxed glaives? might have misinterpretted you as well.
I did say we were talking about from lvl7 to lvl10 where u decide whether to max q or w and i made some simple calculations how much damage u get from maxed glaives at lvl10.
E: oh i see, i did say at lvl7 where i meant from lvl7 to lvl10 where u up ur w from lvl1 to lvl4.
yeah i can see why we misunderstood each other lol
its a valid point but i still think your q is better to max over your orb regardless of how much int you have bc you wanna be able to use it before enemy bkbs come out. i also think the situations it forces enemy players into is absurd. you make them choose between casting spells and more dmg or only using right clicks for the duration. then if you have last word on them, you almost force them into casting a spell for more dmg.
On December 23 2015 11:25 Belisarius wrote: Windranger should be phase->aghs->mobility.
I feel like this has come up several times and people keep telling you the same thing. The purpose of maelstrom is to open up a window where you can solokill key heroes at 3k gold instead of waiting for aghs. It's highly situational. If you don't have that specific need, you should just rush aghs.
Blink after aghs is the standard progression to extend your ability to catch people out. I guess you could go force if you really needed the intel, but blink is far better.
And honestly, a single new player working through it is a pretty poor sample size. It also ignores the fact that if he learned to use blink to pick up solokills he would probably do much better, but he hasn't learned that and so it looks unnecessary.
Im just using my co-worker as an example as it is the one I can personally see played, not the full sample size.
Are you suggesting this for both mid and lane?
On December 23 2015 12:03 BluemoonSC wrote: RE: zeus - the issue is the 2nd point in arc lightning. its only necessary if you can't cs reliably bc your attack animation sucks, so you need the extra dmg. otherwise, the extra point isn't worth it by the time you get ready for your first ultimate. ideally, the 3rd lvl in bolt is +100 dmg for that kill whereas only 15 if you're 2-2-1-1 with the 2nd point in arc lightning.
On December 23 2015 11:25 Belisarius wrote: Windranger should be phase->aghs->mobility.
I feel like this has come up several times and people keep telling you the same thing. The purpose of maelstrom is to open up a window where you can solokill key heroes at 3k gold instead of waiting for aghs. It's highly situational. If you don't have that specific need, you should just rush aghs.
Blink after aghs is the standard progression to extend your ability to catch people out. I guess you could go force if you really needed the intel, but blink is far better.
And honestly, a single new player working through it is a pretty poor sample size. It also ignores the fact that if he learned to use blink to pick up solokills he would probably do much better, but he hasn't learned that and so it looks unnecessary.
I think it's sort of fine too in the sense that a player who works better with aghs + damage is likely to just skip the blink dagger because it's too complicated for them to deal with.
if you're fighting heroes, agha is situational, but mobility is required to get in range for your nuke.
blink/euls -> bloodstone -> octarine is my go to, but at the bare minimum, your core should be blink/euls-bloodstone.
RE: KOTL we are absolutely not undervaluing mana leak. i cant remember if it was WCA or a Summit game but kotl just dominated the other team's offlaner with his mana leak. it was ridiculous.
RE: Windranger..blink is a positioning tool to get off that shackle so that you can let loose on your ultimate instead of having to keep up with the person you're using it on walking away. if your friend is doing really well without a blink/force, im not sure how lol
arc warden build looks good. id maybe switch the midas to the end of the early game build so you can still farm in lane and do stuff in the river every 2 minutes. rune kills with flux + wraith is really strong.
so were keeping bloodstone, not a second point in arc lightning and sticking a blink dagger before it? I don't know if that lines up with what we're seeing being played right now. Does what I suggested above not work out?
Q E W W W (max W, Max Q, Max E).
Core: Blink -> Veil of Discord Extension: Aether Lens/Bloodstone/Refresher/Boots of Travel Luxury: Aghs/Octarine Core
I think Mana Leak can be good; but that Chakra has more usage overall and it's even stronger than before. So in comparison, Mana Leak's value (even more earlier on) is not as ideal as more Chakra Magic. That's also what I'm seeing more as well.
because people are sloppy and very slow at reacting.
Arc Warden: I'd love a second opinion on this. Ultimately, you'd want Midas around 6; so does this delay it too much?
On December 23 2015 11:25 Belisarius wrote: Windranger should be phase->aghs->mobility.
I feel like this has come up several times and people keep telling you the same thing. The purpose of maelstrom is to open up a window where you can solokill key heroes at 3k gold instead of waiting for aghs. It's highly situational. If you don't have that specific need, you should just rush aghs.
Blink after aghs is the standard progression to extend your ability to catch people out. I guess you could go force if you really needed the intel, but blink is far better.
And honestly, a single new player working through it is a pretty poor sample size. It also ignores the fact that if he learned to use blink to pick up solokills he would probably do much better, but he hasn't learned that and so it looks unnecessary.
Im just using my co-worker as an example as it is the one I can personally see played, not the full sample size.
Are you suggesting this for both mid and lane?
again this outdated 'mid' and 'lane' nonsense instead of core and support. for the vast majority of cores played in mid or "in lane", they build the same, except the mid will pick up a bottle and the laner will probably make do with a basi ring (or buy bottle anyway). idk why im even bothering since u appear to be ignoring my posts
With the offlane changes it almost feels like you can put any core in any lane and have much the same end result, as long as you're in the lane matchup that you want.
btw you do realize that silencer's q affects creeps too?
he can use it as an AOE farming tool (not the greatest, but can still help. imo, mistakes are being made maxing your orb over q. would love to get yango's opinion on this one.
blink or euls is great. euls is probably a better overall choice because it gives int mana and ms. blink dagger, i might have in situational simply because it requires you to be able to position yourself safely. this is for guide purposes. personally id get the blink. i still hate the veil of discord. but maybe thats just a personal preference. blink, bloodstone, octarine, defensive (defensive and oct can swap) is my preference.
i dont think you should max it over anything else, but i think it should be picked up sooner than you have it. as a support, illuminate isn't particularly useful unless you're puppey and you're jungling the kotl. many lower lvl supports babysit too much and you dont want them to push the lanes, but instead get kills if they're gonna do that. mana leak will do that.
Arc Warden wouldn't you say that hero kills and bounty runes (and mana) accelerate your farm?
Wraith isn't that good when you're always in a lane and don't get a chance to hide somewhere and stack a bunch of them.
I don't think mid is actually the right way to play him at all precisely for that reason (only support Warden gets to hide, stack Wraiths and then kill someone with the Wraith stack), but if you're going mid, Wraith isn't that good.
Sadly, I feel now that support Warden isn't going to be practical at a guide level, because like Techies, it takes some sensible understanding of how people move around the map and where to punish people with stacks of Mines/Wraiths. Like Techies, a bad support Warden is going to be totally useless because the skill is completely awful when used poorly.
I'm sure when Techies was getting picked all the time everyone had the experience of the totally worthless Techies who just used mines in random places that didn't actually help anyone accomplish anything. This is the same thing except worse because unlike Techies Mines, Wraiths actually time out so someone actually has to pass your stack in the next 50s. The payoff is better when you do it right (largely since Arc Warden is harder to keep tabs on with Wraith's absurd cast range), but is even more useless when someone's bad at it.
On December 25 2015 09:21 Birdie wrote: Arc Warden middle should max slow before maxing spark wraith. EQQEQRQWEERWWWW most of the time I think.
Starting items should be wraith band, 2x shared tangos, 1x faerie fire 1x branch, and get bottle, brown boots, midas, ring of aquila.
can you explain why?
When people know what the spells do they won't walk into a spark wraith intentionally most of the time, so they're more effective as a zoning mechanism which allows you to control the lane. On the other hand, Flux does damage like this: 90->180->270->360. So with both spells at level 2, spark wraith does more damage than flux, but at level 3 and 4, flux does more damage than spark wraith. Add to that the increased range and once you have maxed flux you can initiate and do a fairly reliable 560 damage from one wraith and one flux, plus any autoattacks you get off.
You don't usually need magnetic field unless you hold a point for ganks or something.
Starting items are pretty simple, most attack damage you can get for your gold short of getting a slippers which you won't build into anything and which gives no hp/mana. Bottle is because you are mid and can abuse rune control easily, brown boots because you're rly slow and susceptible to ganks early, midas I'm sure you all know, and ring of aquila because A) you're a split-pushing hero and the aura is very good for pushing, and B) It's the single most cost effective agility item in the game, and it got a buff in 6.86 too making it even better.
@Torte I have watched a few of that guy's replays when I was studying how to play the hero mid, he plays it pretty interestingly with the diffusal blades but I haven't tried diffusals yet. It makes a lot of sense though because with 0 cooldown and essentially infinite charges on your double, you can just slow the entire team almost instantly. Add to that that it gives int and agility in very cost efficient amounts and it's a really good item for the hero, I think. I will have to try it.
On December 25 2015 13:30 Thetwinmasters wrote: I think drow might want to switch to the dlance Mjollnir aghs build
Manta still better than dlance IMO, only nice thing about dlance is you can range towers but it doesn't rly matter I don't think.
dragon lance is extremely important to the build I am half asleep right now so I don't want to explain why but other users such as ahswtini can probably explain why
On December 25 2015 09:21 Birdie wrote: Arc Warden middle should max slow before maxing spark wraith. EQQEQRQWEERWWWW most of the time I think.
Starting items should be wraith band, 2x shared tangos, 1x faerie fire 1x branch, and get bottle, brown boots, midas, ring of aquila.
can you explain why?
When people know what the spells do they won't walk into a spark wraith intentionally most of the time, so they're more effective as a zoning mechanism which allows you to control the lane. On the other hand, Flux does damage like this: 90->180->270->360. So with both spells at level 2, spark wraith does more damage than flux, but at level 3 and 4, flux does more damage than spark wraith. Add to that the increased range and once you have maxed flux you can initiate and do a fairly reliable 560 damage from one wraith and one flux, plus any autoattacks you get off.
You don't usually need magnetic field unless you hold a point for ganks or something.
Starting items are pretty simple, most attack damage you can get for your gold short of getting a slippers which you won't build into anything and which gives no hp/mana. Bottle is because you are mid and can abuse rune control easily, brown boots because you're rly slow and susceptible to ganks early, midas I'm sure you all know, and ring of aquila because A) you're a split-pushing hero and the aura is very good for pushing, and B) It's the single most cost effective agility item in the game, and it got a buff in 6.86 too making it even better.
@Torte I have watched a few of that guy's replays when I was studying how to play the hero mid, he plays it pretty interestingly with the diffusal blades but I haven't tried diffusals yet. It makes a lot of sense though because with 0 cooldown and essentially infinite charges on your double, you can just slow the entire team almost instantly. Add to that that it gives int and agility in very cost efficient amounts and it's a really good item for the hero, I think. I will have to try it.
his style is a lot more aggressive and micro-intensive while our's is more rat-pusher/farmer to late-game.
My logic is that you max Wraiths while farming pushing to place in ideal spots (either defensive or offensively) over Flux where the slow comes in handy later on. Also max Wraiths to place at rune spots while mid
We can either make the Lane version max Wraith (and subsequently alter his item build to maybe include bottle??) or keep it as is right now.
On December 25 2015 09:21 Birdie wrote: Arc Warden middle should max slow before maxing spark wraith. EQQEQRQWEERWWWW most of the time I think.
Starting items should be wraith band, 2x shared tangos, 1x faerie fire 1x branch, and get bottle, brown boots, midas, ring of aquila.
can you explain why?
When people know what the spells do they won't walk into a spark wraith intentionally most of the time, so they're more effective as a zoning mechanism which allows you to control the lane. On the other hand, Flux does damage like this: 90->180->270->360. So with both spells at level 2, spark wraith does more damage than flux, but at level 3 and 4, flux does more damage than spark wraith. Add to that the increased range and once you have maxed flux you can initiate and do a fairly reliable 560 damage from one wraith and one flux, plus any autoattacks you get off.
You don't usually need magnetic field unless you hold a point for ganks or something.
Starting items are pretty simple, most attack damage you can get for your gold short of getting a slippers which you won't build into anything and which gives no hp/mana. Bottle is because you are mid and can abuse rune control easily, brown boots because you're rly slow and susceptible to ganks early, midas I'm sure you all know, and ring of aquila because A) you're a split-pushing hero and the aura is very good for pushing, and B) It's the single most cost effective agility item in the game, and it got a buff in 6.86 too making it even better.
@Torte I have watched a few of that guy's replays when I was studying how to play the hero mid, he plays it pretty interestingly with the diffusal blades but I haven't tried diffusals yet. It makes a lot of sense though because with 0 cooldown and essentially infinite charges on your double, you can just slow the entire team almost instantly. Add to that that it gives int and agility in very cost efficient amounts and it's a really good item for the hero, I think. I will have to try it.
his style is a lot more aggressive and micro-intensive while our's is more rat-pusher/farmer to late-game.
My logic is that you max Wraiths while farming pushing to place in ideal spots (either defensive or offensively) over Flux where the slow comes in handy later on. Also max Wraiths to place at rune spots while mid
We can either make the Lane version max Wraith (and subsequently alter his item build to maybe include bottle??) or keep it as is right now.
Maxing E first over Q is a laning stage thing though, not to do with aggression or rat. Once you start pushing and ratting after laning phase you're going to have both maxed anyway, if you're mid and therefore getting solo exp. Q is more damage and less mana, after getting two levels of E, so it's a better spell in the laning phase.
I haven't played lane Zet yet so I can't comment on how you'd play there.
EPT
so were keeping bloodstone, not a second point in arc lightning and sticking a blink dagger before it?
I'll update Silencer today
