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Faerie fire seems weak in way too many circumstances. I could see it on... weaver and a few ranged mid heroes I guess.
Side shop bottle is strictly a roaming heroes thing and doesn't change who gets it only makes it more convenient for a bounty hunter type hero to pick it up without using the courier. The fact that it comes with 1 charge means that unless you are going to get a rune RIGHT NOW it's actually better to just fly yourself a bottle in the first place most of the time.
pretty sure aghs kunkka sucks dick
jungling is SO EASY with bloodseeker talon on account of bloodrage magnifying talon damage
dragon lance is mega poop on TA
lens sucks dick on bat
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On December 22 2015 06:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Faerie fire seems weak in way too many circumstances. I could see it on... weaver and a few ranged mid heroes I guess.
Side shop bottle is strictly a roaming heroes thing and doesn't change who gets it only makes it more convenient for a bounty hunter type hero to pick it up without using the courier. The fact that it comes with 1 charge means that unless you are going to get a rune RIGHT NOW it's actually better to just fly yourself a bottle in the first place most of the time.
pretty sure aghs kunkka sucks dick
jungling is SO EASY with bloodseeker talon on account of bloodrage magnifying talon damage
dragon lance is mega poop on TA
lens sucks dick on bat
aghs kunkka is alright i think since it speeds up the boat travel time as well as pulling enemies, pretty good for a support build
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I think you should really consider two invoker guides. I know you're understandably reluctant to add any more guides, but he's definitely the most clearcut example of having massively different methods of play be completely viable (even within that there's some variation, though less so now that dual forge spirits is weakened) with pretty much no overlap in anything between them (they go completely different items). Quas exort is definitely more popular, but quas wex is definitely viable and the better choice in some games. 4 of the top 10 ranked players have gone quas wex in their most recent game.
On a different note entirely, I think there's some sort of misconception on mid vs lane labelings as to why players are sticking to one even if it's never played. I used earth spirit mid because it had more of the items I wanted than the lane did even though I never went mid with him in like 80 games. I believe certain players are sticking with builds for this reason.
Finally, not really important, but you list me twice in your thank yous.
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On December 21 2015 06:37 Buckyman wrote:
I don't see Aether Lens on Batrider being a higher priority than Blink or Force except at very low execution levels where player's can't pull the blink->lasso combo without the extra range on lasso. I could see it being a 5th core item, relegating bottle to early game only.
On December 21 2015 07:51 BluemoonSC wrote:
yeesh, nice job torte.
IMO blink should be core on arc warden, not sure if it should be before or after travels..probably before.
oh and yeah, aether is def not higher priority than blink. if you can blink/force you probably dont need aether lens at all tbh
to answer your question about leftover gold, 3 iron branch is fine on heroes that will be picking up a wand. 1 can be dropped and eaten for the extra regen.
 -- Roger that, I think we need to create a Luxury Items list because I feel Aether Lens is much better than say Scythe of Vyse of Shiva's Guard? Maybe I assume that because it is easier to get over actual priority? But it feels like a better contributor than the others in general, no?
Arc Warden: Is this purely for escape purposes similar to Nature's Prophet or Tinker? Core over Extension or Situational Items?
What do you think about Assault Cuirass over Mjollnir?
Iron Branch: roger that, I will very likely apply a new branch as I pass around the guides and not actually go around updating them purely for it.
On December 21 2015 08:01 Thetwinmasters wrote:
invoker needs we as first 2 levels for sure alacrity damage makes this hero so much stronger in lane
 I need to revert his build back to 6.85 both item-wise and skill build. I think what I have is just wrong and you're correct on the first skill order levels.
On December 21 2015 08:06 weeklyn00b wrote:
About NP jungle build: There is no reason to get tangos and branches. Either get null talisman or a bascilius. I have checked, and going null is slightly faster, and gives you more damage when you gank, but bascilius makes it easier because of the armor.
As for a possible offlane build, I usually go null and salve, but its possible to drop the null and get a tango and a clarity or something instead. As long as you keep your distance and harass with treants, you should be fine with the null salve build.
btw add refresher besides the aghs and octarine and say that they should be gotten if the opposing team has unreliable waveclear
I think Nature's Prophet would be good for a Faerie Fire maybe?
I will look into this, thanks!
I'm going to hold off on offlane until I settle with 6.86; still a lot of builds I published to 6.86 that I should have taken a closer look. Was my mistake.
I might avoid adding Refresher Orb because Luxury Items will then exceed Extension Items and it's only good if you get Aghs, right?
On December 21 2015 08:54 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 01:00 Sn0_Man wrote:
iron talon is super good but it's NOT a bfury replacement. Any hero who bought bfury buys it to clear waves which talon DOES NOT DO. talon is a nice upgrade for qb for NON BFURY heroes. Like spectre. Talon's INSANE on spectre allowing her to farm muuuuuch faster early with like no items. Also good on every jungler who hits creeps (most of whom felt invalid before but now... lycan, lone druid, furion, even LC and Lifestealer are decent speed). This is from a few pages back, but I'm curious about this. I tried out Iron Talon on Spectre along with Phase + PMS, but I still wasn't able to jungle effectively around 6-10. I killed creeps fast, but without regen I was just getting chewed up by the camps making it hard for me to do more than 1 or 2 camps before I'd be low enough to either have to back or lane. Maybe I should have had Aquila and/or treads or something? Do you have a general idea of how Iron Talon should work. I found it faster than no Iron Talon of course, but not to the point where I felt like it was worthwhile going to the jungle. If I got Iron Talon after Radiance, well I'm not really sure I quite see the point but maybe it'd still pay off.
 I feel Talon would be great on Spectre with Aquila or Vanguard, but I dont know if it necessary if you are rushing Radiance, no?
On December 21 2015 15:42 Howie_Dewitt wrote:
Chen aghs spelling error
 Will fix momentarily! Thanks a lot!
On December 21 2015 16:40 Velzi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 13:11 ahswtini wrote:
why would u not get valuepoint ice path before maxing liquid fire and dualbreath Was thinking about the same thing. Whether u max ice path or dualbreath should be game dependent too but that seems too complicated for the guide i guess.
 Yeah, I got a lot of requests to fix that on Reddit.
On December 22 2015 04:24 Buckyman wrote:
AA (Lane) is still missing a starting obs ward
Roger that
On December 22 2015 05:34 Logo wrote:
If Sven is getting QB, should he just be getting Iron Talon instead?
 We could. Might be unnecessary delay for what will get sold pretty fast since he gets six-slotted so fast.
On December 22 2015 06:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Faerie fire seems weak in way too many circumstances. I could see it on... weaver and a few ranged mid heroes I guess.
Side shop bottle is strictly a roaming heroes thing and doesn't change who gets it only makes it more convenient for a bounty hunter type hero to pick it up without using the courier. The fact that it comes with 1 charge means that unless you are going to get a rune RIGHT NOW it's actually better to just fly yourself a bottle in the first place most of the time.
pretty sure aghs kunkka sucks dick
jungling is SO EASY with bloodseeker talon on account of bloodrage magnifying talon damage
dragon lance is mega poop on TA
lens sucks dick on bat
Bottle: This narrows down the list a lot, thanks a lot. For me, it made sense for heroes like Tusk or Ogre (sorta), but was wondering if it has more ramifications than I assumed
Faerie Fire: To me, Faerie Fire feels like an in-between item along with Salve or Tangos; so you're not overbuying on healing and still want the damage. It's an in-between item?
 I don't think it sucks, but I do think it comes too late for how Kunkka is currently played late-game. I think there will be a new style of Kunka where he will be more of a utility hero (like the Meka Kunka style), no?
Why does Lens suck on Batrider?
On December 22 2015 06:55 tehh4ck3r wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 06:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Faerie fire seems weak in way too many circumstances. I could see it on... weaver and a few ranged mid heroes I guess.
Side shop bottle is strictly a roaming heroes thing and doesn't change who gets it only makes it more convenient for a bounty hunter type hero to pick it up without using the courier. The fact that it comes with 1 charge means that unless you are going to get a rune RIGHT NOW it's actually better to just fly yourself a bottle in the first place most of the time.
pretty sure aghs kunkka sucks dick
jungling is SO EASY with bloodseeker talon on account of bloodrage magnifying talon damage
dragon lance is mega poop on TA
lens sucks dick on bat aghs kunkka is alright i think since it speeds up the boat travel time as well as pulling enemies, pretty good for a support build
What I was thinking as well!
On December 22 2015 06:59 Nevuk wrote:
I think you should really consider two invoker guides. I know you're understandably reluctant to add any more guides, but he's definitely the most clearcut example of having massively different methods of play be completely viable (even within that there's some variation, though less so now that dual forge spirits is weakened) with pretty much no overlap in anything between them (they go completely different items). Quas exort is definitely more popular, but quas wex is definitely viable and the better choice in some games. 4 of the top 10 ranked players have gone quas wex in their most recent game.
On a different note entirely, I think there's some sort of misconception on mid vs lane labelings as to why players are sticking to one even if it's never played. I used earth spirit mid because it had more of the items I wanted than the lane did even though I never went mid with him in like 80 games. I believe certain players are sticking with builds for this reason.
Finally, not really important, but you list me twice in your thank yous.
Might be time to delete some guides and take the hit on subscriptions.
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I agree with separating QW and QE vokers.
Invoker is a truly special case. He's unique in that he's essentially two different heroes, and that this separation is intrinsic to his design. He's not, for example, some hero that can currently be played as a core or a support and can be expected to settle in the future. As long as invoker exists in his current design, there will be at least two clear and distinct versions which are worth documenting.
From a numbers perspective, even if we're conservative and say that maybe 1/3 vokers are QW, that is still more playtime than half the heroes in all of dota. When you compare this to some of the more obscure guides you're running (eg. oracle, aa etc mids) which cover <15% of the games of 2% pickrate heroes... it becomes kind of crazy that you don't have it.
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talon is insane on spec for speeding your farm pre-relic imo
thing about faerie fire is once you use it, you don't get damage. And the heal is SUPER small, like less than a single tango charge. It is handy on account of it's instantness, but really if you aren't abusing the damage from it, it's not good. Most melee heroes don't need 2 dmg to lasthit as well as a burst regen, since melee heroes who value lasthit damage are often farming carries that value long-term sustain much higher than burst heal in low leve combat. Plus a QB is better on melee heroes to farm, and melee heroes USUALLY rely on spells to harass not right clicks. Plus many heroes would rather a branch for the HP and mana compared to the 1 extra damage.
Lens is bad on bat for a few reasons. First, Q/W have huge range already, not a concern there. E doesn't have range at all. The only thing it REALLY extends your range on is items (blink) and ult. However, blink already has 1200 range, which happens to be exactly your vision range during the day. So if you can see a baddie, you can initiate. Aether lens doesn't change that math unless you have extra vision from wards allies. Which is of course possible. Technically the extra range on both ult and blink does mean you have 400 more initiation range. Your ult's range is still so small that you certainly have to blink to ult reliably anyway. And once you have ulted somebody, the most important thing is to force staff pull them somewhere. Aether lens doesn't improve that either. The mana isn't bad sure but it's not super important and bat can get better mana items. The regen is pretty negligible on a hero with high base HP regen already.
Basically the only situation it improves your power in is when you have excess vision over the enemy, and need to initiate NOW instead of in the 1 second it would take you to free-path your way 400 units closer. Regardless, its *always* worse than blink + force, and after blink + force you badly need items like BKB etc.
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On December 22 2015 07:21 Belisarius wrote:
I agree with separating QW and QE vokers.
Invoker is a truly special case. He's unique in that he's essentially two different heroes, and that this separation is intrinsic to his design. He's not, for example, some hero that can currently be played as a core or a support and can be expected to settle in the future. As long as invoker exists in his current design, there will be at least two clear and distinct versions which are worth documenting.
From a numbers perspective, even if we're conservative and say that maybe 1/3 vokers are QW, that is still more playtime than half the heroes in all of dota. When you compare this to some of the more obscure guides you're running (eg. oracle, aa etc mids) which cover <15% of the games of 2% pickrate heroes... it becomes kind of crazy that you don't have it.
Once 6.86 settles and the workload gets lighter, I can look into deleting some guides; probably immediately AFTER a stats checkpoint.
Probably start with 3, max 5. removals and see from there.
On December 22 2015 07:29 Sn0_Man wrote:
talon is insane on spec for speeding your farm pre-relic imo
thing about faerie fire is once you use it, you don't get damage. And the heal is SUPER small, like less than a single tango charge. It is handy on account of it's instantness, but really if you aren't abusing the damage from it, it's not good. Most melee heroes don't need 2 dmg to lasthit as well as a burst regen, since melee heroes who value lasthit damage are often farming carries that value long-term sustain much higher than burst heal in low leve combat. Plus a QB is better on melee heroes to farm, and melee heroes USUALLY rely on spells to harass not right clicks. Plus many heroes would rather a branch for the HP and mana compared to the 1 extra damage.
Lens is bad on bat for a few reasons. First, Q/W have huge range already, not a concern there. E doesn't have range at all. The only thing it REALLY extends your range on is items (blink) and ult. However, blink already has 1200 range, which happens to be exactly your vision range during the day. So if you can see a baddie, you can initiate. Aether lens doesn't change that math unless you have extra vision from wards allies. Which is of course possible. Technically the extra range on both ult and blink does mean you have 400 more initiation range. Your ult's range is still so small that you certainly have to blink to ult reliably anyway. And once you have ulted somebody, the most important thing is to force staff pull them somewhere. Aether lens doesn't improve that either. The mana isn't bad sure but it's not super important and bat can get better mana items. The regen is pretty negligible on a hero with high base HP regen already.
Basically the only situation it improves your power in is when you have excess vision over the enemy, and need to initiate NOW instead of in the 1 second it would take you to free-path your way 400 units closer. Regardless, its *always* worse than blink + force, and after blink + force you badly need items like BKB etc.
We'll wait on Talon for Spectre until we see it more in mainstream games. Same with Sven, but I'll jot it down.
Faerie Fire + Iron Branch + Tango to compensate for the HP? Maybe Faerie Fire for Offlane or I don't know. It's on the rim of good and bad, god.
Extends Blink and Ultimate. That's pretty good for a hero that banks on his initiation and being able to Q at a further range is great for ganks?
We might just leave it, but neither place it to Luxury or break up the current items in Extension
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
jungle furion shud start talon two clarities now
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SoCal8933 Posts
On December 22 2015 07:29 Sn0_Man wrote:
Lens is bad on bat for a few reasons. First, Q/W have huge range already, not a concern there. E doesn't have range at all. The only thing it REALLY extends your range on is items (blink) and ult. However, blink already has 1200 range, which happens to be exactly your vision range during the day. So if you can see a baddie, you can initiate. Aether lens doesn't change that math unless you have extra vision from wards allies. Which is of course possible. Technically the extra range on both ult and blink does mean you have 400 more initiation range. Your ult's range is still so small that you certainly have to blink to ult reliably anyway. And once you have ulted somebody, the most important thing is to force staff pull them somewhere. Aether lens doesn't improve that either. The mana isn't bad sure but it's not super important and bat can get better mana items. The regen is pretty negligible on a hero with high base HP regen already.
Basically the only situation it improves your power in is when you have excess vision over the enemy, and need to initiate NOW instead of in the 1 second it would take you to free-path your way 400 units closer. Regardless, its *always* worse than blink + force, and after blink + force you badly need items like BKB etc.
i think the main issues that i have with aether lens on bat are
1) when do you get it? after blink and force? those items are too crucial to delay. additionally, blink, force, aether is 3 slots. bottle + boots + tp is 6, this means you're spending extra gold on something that only extends the range of your spells. as other heroes get stronger, you have no slots for a defensive item or to carry dust if there are invisible heroes you want to initiate on. and is it worth giving up your wand for that extra range when you don't reeeeeally need it?
2) when you get it, will your team be able to keep up with you? that extra range matters when you have slow//squishy supports trying to keep up with their initiator.
ultimately, is the range actually worth it? IMO it isn't and you should be filling that slot with something else
On December 22 2015 07:12 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 07:51 BluemoonSC wrote:
yeesh, nice job torte.
IMO blink should be core on arc warden, not sure if it should be before or after travels..probably before.
to answer your question about leftover gold, 3 iron branch is fine on heroes that will be picking up a wand. 1 can be dropped and eaten for the extra regen. Arc Warden: Is this purely for escape purposes similar to Nature's Prophet or Tinker? Core over Extension or Situational Items? What do you think about Assault Cuirass over Mjollnir? Iron Branch: roger that, I will very likely apply a new branch as I pass around the guides and not actually go around updating them purely for it.
if you're using the necro BoTs build, then yes it is core. you'd use it much like an NP or Tinker would to blink into the trees after you've unloaded your clone, necros etc
even if you're not split pushing, popping your ultimate and using the clone's blink to slow an escaping enemy after your main hero's has worn off is clutch.
if you need to fight, its nice to have to get to the back line heroes while your carries are duking it out.
as for AC or mjolnir absolutely not. you want to be a threat to take rax if left unchecked. your clone deals full dmg and if you have 2 rapiers, the enemy team can't simply send a support to pull the wave off of the tower. they have to worry about you using your clone to fuck them up (in which case, again, blink is crucial)
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Ogre Magi
New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q R Q E W W R E E E R (1. Fireblast 2. Ignite 3. Bloodlust
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Removed Iron Branch
Jakiro
New Skill Build: Q E W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Liquid Fire 2. Dual Breath 3. Ice Path)
Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items
Removed Mekansm
 Disruptor
Removed Aether Lens
Removed Boots of Travel
Keeper of the Light
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Removed Aether Lens
 Enigma
Removed Aether Lens
Earth Spirit (Middle)
Removed Aether Lens
Earth Spirit (Lane)
Added Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Removed Aether Lens
Removed Boots of Travel
 Omniknight
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Added Aether Lens to Situational Items
 Lion
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
 Lina (Lane)
Lina (Middle)
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
Nyx Assasin (Lane)
Nyx Assasin (Middle)
Added Aether Lens to Core Items
Removed Dagon
 Shadow Shaman (Lane)
Shadow Shaman (Middle)
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
 Zeus
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
Removed Scythe of Vyse
To-Do:
: Skill/Item Build to Quas Exort
(Lane/Middle): Update to Boots of Travel Build
Arc Warden (Lane)
Arc Warden (Middle)
Keep eye on Skill Build (Q/e max first)
: Double-check Skill Build
 (Lane/Middle): Keep eye on Skill/Item build
 (Lane/Jungle): Keep eye on Skill/Item Build
: Update build: better early/starting items: Faerie Fire, etc.
Reduce the following lists:
Faerie Fire applicability?
+ Show Spoiler [Consider Heroes] + (Lane/Jungle)  (Middle)  (Lane/Middle) (Jungle) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle)   (Lane/Middle) (Lane) (Lane)      (Lane/Middle)  (Lane) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle)
Side-Shop Bottle?
+ Show Spoiler [Consider Heroes] + (Lane) (Lane) (Lane) (Lane, remove Soul Ring/Tranqs?) (Lane) (Lane) (Lane)  (Lane) (Lane)  (Lane) (Lane) (Lane)   (Lane) (Lane) (Lane) (Lane)  (Lane)  (Lane)  (Lane)  (Lane) (Lane)
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Sno_man can you give a build for iron talon spectre? I tried phase pms iron talon into radiance and I'd lose like 25% hp hitting centaurs even though I killed them fast. Spectre is just so squishy early.
Am I supposed to max dispersion for it to work?
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United States47024 Posts
If you're gonna jungle sustainably ofc. you need a regen item. IDK why anyone would assume otherwise.
Urn, RoH (for sometimes Vanguard), Bottle are ok, depends on what your game looks like. I dislike Mask of Death even though everyone was all over it after Arteezy did it like twice, but it serves the same function for a similar amount of gold, so it's w/e.
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wasn't he building mask of madness and not just the morbid mask
urn is also a valid option for a sustain item
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre
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On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre
So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.
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Agree on lvl1 ignite over fireblast, and i would max q over w too @lvl7, just the amount of surprise burst u can get with multicast is enough of a reason to max fireblast. E: seems like u are maxing q already, for some reason i thought we had max w there. Whether u get value point in e @lvl4 or @lvl8 is situational, both are just fine.
For Spectre, if lane is really tough i like to go either Mask of Death or full MoM, if lane is okey then just Ring of Health. If lane is really tough and u cant transition to jungle for whatever reason and u have to farm lane, then full Vanguard.
Treads are imo better choice on Spectre in almost any circumstances but thats just my prefs on almost any hero.
Silencer Mid has value point in q @4 and then maxes q over w? What the. I would get 1 lvl in all skills (wqe or weq) and then max r>e>w>q. Last Word doesnt scale enough imo to justify 2 points in it before opening all skills to get maximum damage output @lvl3. Maxing Last Word makes sense to get lower cooldown (from 30 to 12) but lower cooldown doesnt do anything @lvl3 when u get ganked / u fight face to face with enemy mid.
Maxing "nukes" over orb makes sense if u are support but with the lvls and farm u should have with mid silencer maxing w is so strong. And i dont know if we want to have Silencer Lane as a farmer, rather support silencer (where maxing r>e>q>w with value point in w for lane harass). I dont really think silencer should be the main right clicker in ur team, he aint that strong to justify pos1 safelane farm. Solo safelane is fine but u wont see solo safelanes in pubs almost never.
Atos Enigma? Naah i dont really think thats a good idea, u farm reasonably fast after ur core that u should try to either save up for hex or refresher or octarine at that point. Pipe seems really really situational too (i mean really situational, dont know if it should be in the guide either).
KOTL could have earlier point in Mana Leak, its such a strong laning skill it should be lvled earlier (maybe qeew or qwee?)
Zeus has Aghs on Extension, i like the item Description for the Aghs but people still build Arcanes Aghs and think why they suck :< I would move Aghs as far away as possible to make sure people dont build it as first major item, i dont know how we do that but it just sucks so much.
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EPT
Luna
Ursa (Jungle)
Lifestealer (Jungle)
Bloodseeker
