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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 157

Forum Index > The Tavern
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ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
February 24 2015 09:14 GMT
#3121
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 24 2015 09:18 GMT
#3122
On February 24 2015 18:14 ahswtini wrote:
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges


Well I removed them from the guide, but personally yes.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 24 2015 12:15 GMT
#3123
On February 24 2015 07:11 TheYango wrote:
It's actually largely the farming. Once upon a time, when Treads+VG+Yasha was more common than BF-oriented farming builds (when Vanguard was OP and AM had lower BAT), you leveled all the skills and didn't get Stats because if you're going to fight early, all the skills are actually useful (and Spell Shield has more value when you're going an HP item first). When you're just going to farm till 2nd major item, Stats makes you farm faster than anything else other than obviously maxing Blink.

The time you want Blink maxed is, as mentioned, your BF timing. Usually this happens around level 11, so you usually just get ranks 2-4 from either 7-9 or 8-10 (the difference isn't that big because the level 9->10 and 10->11 XP required is relatively small, so for a guide it doesn't matter which you have as cookie-cutter).

Logo's correct, you typically want Mana Break maxed with your Manta, though it really depends on the game. Though Break can get a lot of unexpected value in pubs because if you catch a random support out, you can often blink on them, Manta, auto them a bunch of times, then Void if necessary for an easy kill that would probably not be reasonable without all 4 ranks in Break. What level that is depends a lot on the game, though, especially if you do things like make a detour for Vlad's.

TL;DR
1-1-1 at 3
1-1-1 + 2 pt. Stats at 6 (2nd point in Break is situational, I don't like recommending it in a generic guide)
1-4-1-2 + 3 pt. Stats at 11 (7-9 or 8-10 Blink are both fine, its not a big deal which you put in the guide)
4-4-1-2 + 3 pt. Stats at 14 (possibly mention for Vlad's that you can delay maxing Break for a few levels if you get it)
Maxing Spell Shield or more stats depends (which you put in the guide doesn't matter, both are fine)

EDIT: For the items, I'd say swap BKB and Heart (choice between the two is pretty game dependent, but I'd say Heart is somewhat more likely), and definitely change the starting items to something that doesn't lose to non-shit offlaners.


I'll rearrange the skill bui.d

I'd personally like to keep BKB at Core Items

I'll need to play more matches to determine starting items, especially since we're getting stats I wouldn't need quelling blade
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 23:36:36
February 24 2015 15:26 GMT
#3124
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 24 2015 15:37 GMT
#3125
For AM, you can't actually level ulti 3 at 15 btw >_>

I often postpone maxing E until 23/24/25 but I understand why a cookie cutter build wouldn't. 15/17/18 is late enough I guess.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 16:35:02
February 24 2015 16:31 GMT
#3126
When you take shit after level 11 kinda gets dicey anyway. Sometimes you even level Shield 12-14/10-13 because there's some bullshit solo-kill hero like Storm (who will finish Orchid at like the same time you get BF) that's just going to fuck with your BF farming patterns if you don't dump a bunch of points into magic resistance.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 24 2015 16:49 GMT
#3127
I'll test the build tonight. Two days ago, I played Anti-Mage vs. Zeus and it went really well.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 18:47:23
February 24 2015 18:26 GMT
#3128
On February 24 2015 18:18 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2015 18:14 ahswtini wrote:
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges


Well I removed them from the guide, but personally yes.


If you have abyssal as like a 100% sure thing you will be going for then you can grab the giant's belt early if you really need the HP. If you are going heart you can instead do the same with a vit booster. I also feel like PL does enough dmg with diffusal where you can leave your treads as STR when you're not fighting, but maybe that's just me. Drums seem out of place on a hero that chases so extremely well already and has no real mana capacity issues.

(Edit you could probably even Ultimate Orb first build a manta or just grab bracers)
Logo
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-25 21:33:21
February 24 2015 23:39 GMT
#3129
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 25 2015 13:57 GMT
#3130
On February 25 2015 03:26 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2015 18:18 Torte de Lini wrote:
On February 24 2015 18:14 ahswtini wrote:
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges


Well I removed them from the guide, but personally yes.


If you have abyssal as like a 100% sure thing you will be going for then you can grab the giant's belt early if you really need the HP. If you are going heart you can instead do the same with a vit booster. I also feel like PL does enough dmg with diffusal where you can leave your treads as STR when you're not fighting, but maybe that's just me. Drums seem out of place on a hero that chases so extremely well already and has no real mana capacity issues.

(Edit you could probably even Ultimate Orb first build a manta or just grab bracers)


Yeah, you're pretty much right.
Manta is core, so maybe I will put Ultimate orb first, but then again, Yasha is good.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
robaq
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland186 Posts
February 25 2015 14:26 GMT
#3131
Medusa should have both MoM and maelstrom as situational items. Also move the manta there, or get rid of it completly as it's a straight bad item in most games.
Omg BW is back | DB: dotabuff.com/players/83694874 | MAL: myanimelist.net/animelist/robaq
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 25 2015 16:06 GMT
#3132
On February 25 2015 23:26 robaq wrote:
Medusa should have both MoM and maelstrom as situational items. Also move the manta there, or get rid of it completly as it's a straight bad item in most games.



http://www.dotabuff.com/players/144906401/matches?hero=medusa

It's very strange seeing him buy it every game.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
February 25 2015 16:18 GMT
#3133
The guy also plays only Normal matches, so there's no guarantee of how good he actually is, despite being a 1-hero specialist.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 25 2015 16:23 GMT
#3134
On February 26 2015 01:18 TheYango wrote:
The guy also plays only Normal matches, so there's no guarantee of how good he actually is, despite being a 1-hero specialist.


Problem is that I also see it in pro matches from DAC:

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1223686866/builds

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1223451103/builds

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1221819600/builds

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1221651808/builds




We kept Manta Style at Luxury Items (after Skadi and Linken's Sphere)



I updated Medusa's Build to grab ultimate lvl 2-3 at levels 15-16

I want to improve her overall item build, but it looks pretty split.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-25 16:27:20
February 25 2015 16:26 GMT
#3135
I'm not sure what your functional distinction is between "Situational" and "Luxury".

Like, in my mind, Situational = "stuff I'll buy if the game calls for it", and "Luxury" = "stuff I'll buy if the game calls for it, but only if I've already finished core". But that interpretation means that Luxury is a subset of Situational and is even more situational than Situational. So I don't think that interpretation can be right.
Moderator
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
February 25 2015 17:04 GMT
#3136
i normally would have thought of luxury as "stuff i buy after core", but you call that extension so.....
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 25 2015 17:11 GMT
#3137
I think it goes something like this:

Pretend ur witch doctor. Ur core is Aghs and boots basically. Thats the core, thats ur goal every game, thats what u farm for.
Then ur extension would be BKB. You always want a BKB post aghs, but it's definitely the 2nd item and you don't have to farm for it necessarily. But if u keep farming, ur buying a bkb. It extends your core.

Then ur luxury is like shivas/hex, the shit u get if ur wayyyy too jacked for whatever reason. less important than ur core/extension but worth mentioning because getting that much cash does happen.

Ur situational is shit that u might get before ur extension or even before ur core if u need it. This shit is ghost sceptre, shadowblade, dagon. The shit that isn't for every game but sometimes its more important than ur luxury (often), extension (occasionally) and even than ur core (rarely). It kinda exists outside of the normal item progression.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-25 17:21:23
February 25 2015 17:19 GMT
#3138
On February 26 2015 02:11 Sn0_Man wrote:
I think it goes something like this:

Pretend ur witch doctor. Ur core is Aghs and boots basically. Thats the core, thats ur goal every game, thats what u farm for.
Then ur extension would be BKB. You always want a BKB post aghs, but it's definitely the 2nd item and you don't have to farm for it necessarily. But if u keep farming, ur buying a bkb. It extends your core.

Then ur luxury is like shivas/hex, the shit u get if ur wayyyy too jacked for whatever reason. less important than ur core/extension but worth mentioning because getting that much cash does happen.

Ur situational is shit that u might get before ur extension or even before ur core if u need it. This shit is ghost sceptre, shadowblade, dagon. The shit that isn't for every game but sometimes its more important than ur luxury (often), extension (occasionally) and even than ur core (rarely). It kinda exists outside of the normal item progression.


Yes, this is actually quite accurate.

Usually for situational, it is everything that isn't necessary to your game, it's not necessarily a plus to get, but early-mid-game needs because you're either failing in core or being hindered so much that you need these items. They are amplifiers to whatever part of the game you want to be proactive with.

Core are items you need to perform your expectations. For carries, it's when you should start ganking/fighting (hence why I kept it for Diffusal for Phantom Lancer, but in that regard, Manta is usually very good as a follow-up). For Gankers and Support, it's a linear path as you are active in-game, etc.

Extension is expected items after Core. It's usually a choice of items that would be expected to be bought after Core Items that can enhance your capabilities. For carries, they are all very similar choices. For Supports, you usually expect 1 or 2 bought, etc.

Luxury Items are late-late game and beyond what you would usually expect. They are either after six-slots or very close to six slots. It's where I put Boots of Travel and major items you wouldn't expect to be bought. Previously it was a slot for Divine Rapier.




These aren't rules but typically guidelines meaning one item can sometimes border on Core/Extension and I have to make a choice on it because it can feel ambiguous.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
February 25 2015 17:20 GMT
#3139
i mean i think that's just too many categories. i remember from the old playdota guides, it was simply core "build this every game", luxury "build this if you have money after getting your core" and situational "build this if you need it"
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 25 2015 17:27 GMT
#3140
I don't necessarily disagree, i'm just 'splaining how tart does it
Not all guides have all the categories right.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
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