• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:16
CEST 12:16
KST 19:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Evil Geniuses - shutting down12ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier5Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League55Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.167
StarCraft 2
General
Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted REPORT: StarCraft 2: Remastered In Development Evil Geniuses - shutting down Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.16 How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 548 Shining Bright The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train
Brood War
General
Mineral gathering rate (boosted) for each patch Rollback Netcode in Brood War Bot on ladder Do we even care about balance? [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Grand Finals [BSL23] RO24 Group Stage
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion!
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
How Much Genes Contribute to…
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8231 users

In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 157

Forum Index > The Tavern
Post a Reply
Prev 1 155 156 157 158 159 371 Next
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
February 24 2015 09:14 GMT
#3121
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 24 2015 09:18 GMT
#3122
On February 24 2015 18:14 ahswtini wrote:
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges


Well I removed them from the guide, but personally yes.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 24 2015 12:15 GMT
#3123
On February 24 2015 07:11 TheYango wrote:
It's actually largely the farming. Once upon a time, when Treads+VG+Yasha was more common than BF-oriented farming builds (when Vanguard was OP and AM had lower BAT), you leveled all the skills and didn't get Stats because if you're going to fight early, all the skills are actually useful (and Spell Shield has more value when you're going an HP item first). When you're just going to farm till 2nd major item, Stats makes you farm faster than anything else other than obviously maxing Blink.

The time you want Blink maxed is, as mentioned, your BF timing. Usually this happens around level 11, so you usually just get ranks 2-4 from either 7-9 or 8-10 (the difference isn't that big because the level 9->10 and 10->11 XP required is relatively small, so for a guide it doesn't matter which you have as cookie-cutter).

Logo's correct, you typically want Mana Break maxed with your Manta, though it really depends on the game. Though Break can get a lot of unexpected value in pubs because if you catch a random support out, you can often blink on them, Manta, auto them a bunch of times, then Void if necessary for an easy kill that would probably not be reasonable without all 4 ranks in Break. What level that is depends a lot on the game, though, especially if you do things like make a detour for Vlad's.

TL;DR
1-1-1 at 3
1-1-1 + 2 pt. Stats at 6 (2nd point in Break is situational, I don't like recommending it in a generic guide)
1-4-1-2 + 3 pt. Stats at 11 (7-9 or 8-10 Blink are both fine, its not a big deal which you put in the guide)
4-4-1-2 + 3 pt. Stats at 14 (possibly mention for Vlad's that you can delay maxing Break for a few levels if you get it)
Maxing Spell Shield or more stats depends (which you put in the guide doesn't matter, both are fine)

EDIT: For the items, I'd say swap BKB and Heart (choice between the two is pretty game dependent, but I'd say Heart is somewhat more likely), and definitely change the starting items to something that doesn't lose to non-shit offlaners.


I'll rearrange the skill bui.d

I'd personally like to keep BKB at Core Items

I'll need to play more matches to determine starting items, especially since we're getting stats I wouldn't need quelling blade
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 23:36:36
February 24 2015 15:26 GMT
#3124
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 24 2015 15:37 GMT
#3125
For AM, you can't actually level ulti 3 at 15 btw >_>

I often postpone maxing E until 23/24/25 but I understand why a cookie cutter build wouldn't. 15/17/18 is late enough I guess.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 16:35:02
February 24 2015 16:31 GMT
#3126
When you take shit after level 11 kinda gets dicey anyway. Sometimes you even level Shield 12-14/10-13 because there's some bullshit solo-kill hero like Storm (who will finish Orchid at like the same time you get BF) that's just going to fuck with your BF farming patterns if you don't dump a bunch of points into magic resistance.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 24 2015 16:49 GMT
#3127
I'll test the build tonight. Two days ago, I played Anti-Mage vs. Zeus and it went really well.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 18:47:23
February 24 2015 18:26 GMT
#3128
On February 24 2015 18:18 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2015 18:14 ahswtini wrote:
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges


Well I removed them from the guide, but personally yes.


If you have abyssal as like a 100% sure thing you will be going for then you can grab the giant's belt early if you really need the HP. If you are going heart you can instead do the same with a vit booster. I also feel like PL does enough dmg with diffusal where you can leave your treads as STR when you're not fighting, but maybe that's just me. Drums seem out of place on a hero that chases so extremely well already and has no real mana capacity issues.

(Edit you could probably even Ultimate Orb first build a manta or just grab bracers)
Logo
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-25 21:33:21
February 24 2015 23:39 GMT
#3129
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 25 2015 13:57 GMT
#3130
On February 25 2015 03:26 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2015 18:18 Torte de Lini wrote:
On February 24 2015 18:14 ahswtini wrote:
so what you're saying is, you want drums?

i don't think it's an issue as long as you're smart with your fights and smart with your dopple dodges


Well I removed them from the guide, but personally yes.


If you have abyssal as like a 100% sure thing you will be going for then you can grab the giant's belt early if you really need the HP. If you are going heart you can instead do the same with a vit booster. I also feel like PL does enough dmg with diffusal where you can leave your treads as STR when you're not fighting, but maybe that's just me. Drums seem out of place on a hero that chases so extremely well already and has no real mana capacity issues.

(Edit you could probably even Ultimate Orb first build a manta or just grab bracers)


Yeah, you're pretty much right.
Manta is core, so maybe I will put Ultimate orb first, but then again, Yasha is good.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
robaq
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland186 Posts
February 25 2015 14:26 GMT
#3131
Medusa should have both MoM and maelstrom as situational items. Also move the manta there, or get rid of it completly as it's a straight bad item in most games.
Omg BW is back | DB: dotabuff.com/players/83694874 | MAL: myanimelist.net/animelist/robaq
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 25 2015 16:06 GMT
#3132
On February 25 2015 23:26 robaq wrote:
Medusa should have both MoM and maelstrom as situational items. Also move the manta there, or get rid of it completly as it's a straight bad item in most games.



http://www.dotabuff.com/players/144906401/matches?hero=medusa

It's very strange seeing him buy it every game.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
February 25 2015 16:18 GMT
#3133
The guy also plays only Normal matches, so there's no guarantee of how good he actually is, despite being a 1-hero specialist.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 25 2015 16:23 GMT
#3134
On February 26 2015 01:18 TheYango wrote:
The guy also plays only Normal matches, so there's no guarantee of how good he actually is, despite being a 1-hero specialist.


Problem is that I also see it in pro matches from DAC:

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1223686866/builds

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1223451103/builds

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1221819600/builds

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1221651808/builds




We kept Manta Style at Luxury Items (after Skadi and Linken's Sphere)



I updated Medusa's Build to grab ultimate lvl 2-3 at levels 15-16

I want to improve her overall item build, but it looks pretty split.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-25 16:27:20
February 25 2015 16:26 GMT
#3135
I'm not sure what your functional distinction is between "Situational" and "Luxury".

Like, in my mind, Situational = "stuff I'll buy if the game calls for it", and "Luxury" = "stuff I'll buy if the game calls for it, but only if I've already finished core". But that interpretation means that Luxury is a subset of Situational and is even more situational than Situational. So I don't think that interpretation can be right.
Moderator
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
February 25 2015 17:04 GMT
#3136
i normally would have thought of luxury as "stuff i buy after core", but you call that extension so.....
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 25 2015 17:11 GMT
#3137
I think it goes something like this:

Pretend ur witch doctor. Ur core is Aghs and boots basically. Thats the core, thats ur goal every game, thats what u farm for.
Then ur extension would be BKB. You always want a BKB post aghs, but it's definitely the 2nd item and you don't have to farm for it necessarily. But if u keep farming, ur buying a bkb. It extends your core.

Then ur luxury is like shivas/hex, the shit u get if ur wayyyy too jacked for whatever reason. less important than ur core/extension but worth mentioning because getting that much cash does happen.

Ur situational is shit that u might get before ur extension or even before ur core if u need it. This shit is ghost sceptre, shadowblade, dagon. The shit that isn't for every game but sometimes its more important than ur luxury (often), extension (occasionally) and even than ur core (rarely). It kinda exists outside of the normal item progression.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-25 17:21:23
February 25 2015 17:19 GMT
#3138
On February 26 2015 02:11 Sn0_Man wrote:
I think it goes something like this:

Pretend ur witch doctor. Ur core is Aghs and boots basically. Thats the core, thats ur goal every game, thats what u farm for.
Then ur extension would be BKB. You always want a BKB post aghs, but it's definitely the 2nd item and you don't have to farm for it necessarily. But if u keep farming, ur buying a bkb. It extends your core.

Then ur luxury is like shivas/hex, the shit u get if ur wayyyy too jacked for whatever reason. less important than ur core/extension but worth mentioning because getting that much cash does happen.

Ur situational is shit that u might get before ur extension or even before ur core if u need it. This shit is ghost sceptre, shadowblade, dagon. The shit that isn't for every game but sometimes its more important than ur luxury (often), extension (occasionally) and even than ur core (rarely). It kinda exists outside of the normal item progression.


Yes, this is actually quite accurate.

Usually for situational, it is everything that isn't necessary to your game, it's not necessarily a plus to get, but early-mid-game needs because you're either failing in core or being hindered so much that you need these items. They are amplifiers to whatever part of the game you want to be proactive with.

Core are items you need to perform your expectations. For carries, it's when you should start ganking/fighting (hence why I kept it for Diffusal for Phantom Lancer, but in that regard, Manta is usually very good as a follow-up). For Gankers and Support, it's a linear path as you are active in-game, etc.

Extension is expected items after Core. It's usually a choice of items that would be expected to be bought after Core Items that can enhance your capabilities. For carries, they are all very similar choices. For Supports, you usually expect 1 or 2 bought, etc.

Luxury Items are late-late game and beyond what you would usually expect. They are either after six-slots or very close to six slots. It's where I put Boots of Travel and major items you wouldn't expect to be bought. Previously it was a slot for Divine Rapier.




These aren't rules but typically guidelines meaning one item can sometimes border on Core/Extension and I have to make a choice on it because it can feel ambiguous.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
February 25 2015 17:20 GMT
#3139
i mean i think that's just too many categories. i remember from the old playdota guides, it was simply core "build this every game", luxury "build this if you have money after getting your core" and situational "build this if you need it"
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 25 2015 17:27 GMT
#3140
I don't necessarily disagree, i'm just 'splaining how tart does it
Not all guides have all the categories right.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Prev 1 155 156 157 158 159 371 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 44m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko104
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 48683
Jaedong 5069
Rain 3187
BeSt 597
Zeus 308
Hyuk 286
Rush 163
Soma 159
Stork 134
Dewaltoss 109
[ Show more ]
Leta 91
Soulkey 84
EffOrt 82
Larva 70
ZerO 66
Mong 60
ggaemo 57
Light 47
Sexy 29
Hm[arnc] 28
Movie 28
NotJumperer 28
Bale 25
Sharp 25
Aegong 24
Killer 24
ToSsGirL 22
sorry 22
Yoon 17
PianO 17
soO 14
Terrorterran 12
Sacsri 9
Dota 2
Gorgc12156
XcaliburYe118
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1515
shoxiejesuss1056
pashabiceps1004
kRYSTAL_5
Other Games
singsing1459
ZerO(Twitch)5
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 44
lovetv 4
[ Show 10 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 25
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2214
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Summer Champion…
44m
Harstem vs Zoun
Harstem vs GgMaChine
GgMaChine vs Lambo
Harstem vs Lambo
GgMaChine vs Zoun
Lambo vs Zoun
OSC
3h 44m
Big Brain Bouts
5h 44m
FEL
22h 44m
Patches Events
1d 2h
AI Arena Tournament
1d 6h
FEL
1d 23h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 23h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
[ Show More ]
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
SHIN vs GuMiho
Clem vs Classic
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-22
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.