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United Kingdom20323 Posts
I know gamersnexus well
Baseline performance for intel arch is a lot higher in sc2 and most of the workload is on one thread with minimal overall CPU load, that pushes things towards intel to start with.
Some other games will use a lot of CPU cores and take up the resources needed by the encoder if you don't force it otherwise but sc2 will naturally limit itself since a ~1.5 core load for maximum game performance isn't that much for a 6+ core CPU.
If you use intensive stream quality settings then you can kill any of those CPU's and the 8600k would fall before the 2700 or even 2600x but there's no need to do that IMO. Even the easiest settings on that video are aggressive for encoder CPU load, 1080p60 on Faster while the standard live encoding preset is the notably higher performing Veryfast. As long as the CPU isn't overwhelmed by the resolution, fps and encoding settings the perfomance will stay good. I can't say exactly when that'd happen right now but e.g. 720p60 or 1080p30 at veryfast would be trivial, i expect 1080p60veryfast would work well; a 6c6t CPU has about 20% more encoding performance than 4c8t (like an i7 7700k) at the same clocks.
The main thing i'd look at would be if you're wanting to overclock actually - the 2'nd gen ryzen CPU's (esp. 2600x and 2700x) are very close to their potential out of the box while an 8600k won't shine unless you give it a 20-25% overclock on the all-core frequency.
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veryfast/main (or high, frankly) encoding isn't particularly clear on fast moving games (e.g. FPS). Might be fine for SC2 even when lots of particles are going on, but I'd doubt it's that great.
It's really a question of how fast your games streamed are and how clear you want it to be. On an FPS I'd be shooting for at least fast/main, preferably fast/high or medium. If it's a slow game like Slay the Spire then veryfast/main would be perfectly fine. Also faster games benefit more from 60FPS. A lot of streamers these days like to stop at 1600x900 to avoid the higher demand of 1080p while still outperforming 720p.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
RTS is generally cheaper and easier to encode than something like an FPS game where every part of the screen can be in constant motion
Different encoding settings are useful but the quality return is a small fraction of the increase in CPU load, if a stream is looking clear it's probably mainly because of the content, resolution/fps and bitrate. It's helpful but on the scale of being able to use 10% less bitrate for 1.5x more CPU load (hard to get exact numbers here as well..) which isn't worth stressing over when near the limits of any CPU IMO, it's the first thing to dial back. If you can do it then great but i'd consider notably improved game performance to be much more significant personally, exception being if you're trying to run a stream every day for thousands of people where you'd probably want a dual system setup with a capture card for the best of both worlds.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
On April 22 2018 19:44 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 11:12 Cyro wrote:Quick note for anyone having the same issue I recently updated from a fairly ancient nvidia GPU driver and have been going crazy over the last week because of their drivers crashing seemingly at random, both idle and under load and then breaking everything until i restart the PC fully. Sometimes crashing every few minutes, sometimes being fine for 5 hours etc. I tried the 391, 390 and 388 family of drivers (including clean uninstalls and then reinstalls from safe mode) and all of them had problems, i underclocked my GPU core and memory and it didn't change anything. Turns out that the double rollback wasn't nearly far enough 'cause the nvidia drivers can't handle having firefox open since august last year and the last stable version is 385.41 which is old enough to not be on the nvidia drivers page any more but you can find it through their site search function or via google. A fix supposed to be coming in an upcoming driver. That's the kind of shit that made me fall out of the habit of updating to the newest ones in the first place  If it's useful to you (I'm also slow with updating due to all the Shadowplay bullshit Nvidia is pulling) I'm on 836.47 and using waterfox instead of firefox. No issues with driver crashes there.
Thanks~ I held off 'cause this one was working for sure and both are old anyway. Wanted to say just now that 397.31 has been released which is supposed to have fix for this problem and mentions the fix in the driver notes.
You may want to use NVENC via OBS instead of Shadowplay; it didn't used to have full access to the efficient capture methods used IIRC but there's a lot more control over what you do with the encoder via OBS.
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Just make sure to use game capture mode, even if using nvenc. Gives a substantial performance boost.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
On April 28 2018 08:08 Craton wrote:
Just make sure to use game capture mode, even if using nvenc. Gives a substantial performance boost.
Did some quick checks on a paused sc2 replay with 1080p30 through 1080p240 and got really odd results. The vast majority of performance loss was coming from just having OBS open with a single empty scene and no capture method at all, that performance hit was also changing dramatically based on the resolution and FPS set in OBS. Having OBS open on the PC and set to high framerates was having a big performance hit despite no capture and no encoding.
capture performance hit was much less in general than i remember from early streaming era as well, e.g.
705fps with no OBS
685fps with OBS set to 1920x1080@60fps (empty scene)
680fps with game capture (1920x1080@60fps)
670fps with window capture (1920x1080@60fps)
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I've had as much as 50% frame gains in modern FPS games (40 -> 60+ @1440p) with even more dramatic differences in terms of how it feels. There are various threads on OBS forums explaining a lot of the differences between game capture and window capture, but I don't have it memorized.
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Currently thinking about building a new PC, been 10 years or so since I upgraded everything, and maybe 4 years since I upgraded cpu, gpu (i5 4690K, R9 290X 4gb, Z97-K mobo with 24gb ddr-3 ram (two different types, so oldest ones clocked up to newest ones..)). Currently Im on two 27" and 24" 60hz screens @ 1920x1080 and 1920x1200, ideally I can afford a reasonable 100hz+ screen at some point after this. I'm pretty sure my old PSU still delivers, its like 1000W from old crossfire days, so I can keep that until it breaks, and I have 2x Samsung SSDs (850 PRO and EVO) that work fine. I also have an external usb 3 drive that I use a lot, so newest gen usb seems worth it on the mobo. Basically what I wanna do is upgrade motherboard, memory, cpu (with a new cpu fan). Then I'll wait a little bit with buying a GFX card, either for next generation or wait for prices on 1080 to drop some more, now that many miners are throwing in the towel.
I've read a bunch of reviews, tests and benchmarks and Ive come up with two budget solutions so far with about same price tag, but I really have no idea which one is better, as one is AMD and one is intel. Read something about AMD sticking with AM4 socket for at least 3 more years (which lets me keep mobo even longer, maybe), but dont know if thats true. I guess I could go with a cheaper CPU fan, but Ive used a similar one before and was very pleased with quietness and temperatures with a little OC.
Option #1 AMD
Mobo: MSI X370 Krait Gaming
CPU: Ryzen 5 1600 (apparently pretty easy to clock to 1600X levels)
Fan: Noctua NH-D15 SE-AM4
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black DDR4 PC21300/2666MHz CL16 2x8GB (CMK16GX4M2A2666C16) (supposedly very stable in clocking all the way up to 3200, which is why I saw it keep getting recommended over the 3200 version, which costs a lot more)
Cost: $670 (5476 NOK)
Option #2 Intel
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Gaming 7
CPU: i5 8400
Fan: Noctua NH-D15
Memory: Same as above
Cost: $707 (5762 NOK)
What do I do? >< Basically Im looking for an alright gaming computer, since that will also cover all my other, less demanding, PC usage. Is either option much better than the other, or are there some alternatives that are much better, that I've missed? I'm not in a hurry, so I will probably set price alarms on whatever I go for, and try to pick it up at a discount over the next 2-3 months.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
You'd be better off with a stock cooled i5 8600 than you would with an 8400 and an NH-D15. Sure it'd run hotter but still within specs and it'd run ~9% faster.
Likewise for the ryzen, you should cut into cooling (or even run stock cooling) to get a more powerful CPU IMO, up to at least the 2600 or maybe 2600x. Take a look at the stock coolers that they come with because some Ryzen CPU's come with better coolers than others as part of the price premium which can allow them to perform close to manually-overclocked levels out of the box and on the upgraded stock cooler. Without double checking prices i have the feeling that you could end up with a stock cooled 2600-2600x and get more performance than an OC'd 1600 with an NH-d15 while spending similar or less money.
Some of the Ryzen mobo's will support as far as 3000-4000+ series of Ryzen AFAIK with a new socket expected around 2020 to roll in all the changes that they'd like to make to it and use DDR5 RAM. There's likely the possibility of going from something like a 6-core ryzen 2000 to a 10-core, faster-per-core ryzen 4000 a few years down the line or at any point in the future if that is of interest to you; Intel won't do the same, they won't go a millimeter out of their way to maintain socket compatibility and will even lock it down on purpose when it already works.
Ryzen 1000 to 2000 might not look like much on some benchmarks but they clock a little higher, are easier to cool and the IPC gains are usually at least a few percent while in niche cases (some games and programs) they can be as much as 10 or 20% better performance per clock. The lopsided improvements to memory and cache latency make them shine particularly strongly in workloads that rely on them and were crippled on Ryzen 1000; a lot of the workloads that don't scale well from them will only be that few % faster.
The i5 8400 runs at only 3.8ghz all-cores and 8600 4.1ghz so a lot of Intel's per-core performance advantage doesn't exist with them; If it were an 8600k on a D15 it could happily clock to 5ghz. They're also stuck at only 2666mhz RAM when OC can run a 24/7 in the 4000mhz range, 1.5x higher. Locked Intel won't be near its ST potential but the lower end Ryzen's will, having near-max single core clocks and memory performance intact.
With no overclock on the Intel side (and fewer cores making the core/thread advantage a bit more meaningful) i'd be leaning more towards Ryzen 2600/2600x although the i5 may still perform a bit better in some lower threaded games.
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Thanks for great feedback! I suppose maybe the Ryzen 5 2600X with box cooler may be better, then. Searching now, it costs slightly less than the 1600 with a noctua. Didnt notice the 8400 I had found wasnt with a "K" suffix, looks like those arent for sale here, and a 8600K is pretty expensive (10% more expensive than 2600X, and doesnt come with a stock cooler). Ive seen intel performing a little better on games, but its not by a lot, I probably wouldnt notice it, and if I can keep my mobo and support another generation of CPU/DRAM in a few years, that would be worth going for AMD by itself, I think.
So maybe the R5 2600X, and keep the mobo/DRAM. Lastly, since I'm playing on 1080p 60hz, I wonder if a 1070 would be a better buy than 1080 if I dont wait for next gen? Assuming I can get it much cheaper.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
Hard to say for GPU's, will depend a lot on the games that you play and the settings + fps that you want. I'm not a fan of the 1080 vs the 1070/1070ti (cheaper) or 1080ti (flagship and a couple extra features like having two NVENC engines). Falling GPU prices and a new GPU gen from nvidia are possible in the next few months so holding on could turn out very well but it's hard to say for sure if or how much it'd help. My GPU is currently selling for 40% more than it was when i bought it new (and newly released card) last year, that won't hold forever!
I'd say that 1080p60 is a very high priority to replace because a lot of stuff does run easily at higher framerates and increased refresh rate brings notable benefits even when gaming at/around 40-60fps; lower input lag, improved perceived smoothness through fixing tearing/aliasing effects on the screen refresh vs the framerate of the game etc.
A 60hz display can display an even 30fps and 60fps perfectly (new frame every refresh or every other refresh) but struggles at rates between those as it's forced to update the screen in an uneven/inconsistent way. This loss of smoothness is quite large and in a range of common framerates; 144hz reduces the size of the problem because of its 2.4x more frequent refreshes and simultaneously moves the worst of it to a 2.4x higher framerate. Gsync fixes that display problem but it's overly expensive and not strictly necessary if you can patch it up with the 144hz already ;D
double check your motherboards, i just noticed you had a z170 on the intel options when actually z370 would have been required (intel compatibility..) and i don't know much about the ryzen boards, what works now and what'll likely be updated to support 3000/4000 series CPU's.
If the 1600 is that much cheaper than it's probably okay, having a D15 laying around is always nice for the noise profile and for future CPU's. I'm still using my Silver Arrow from 2013 and getting excellent performance out of it.
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Thanks again. Yeah, I've kept researching, and i think the 2600X on a Aorus X470 Ultra Gaming will be worth it. Few dollars more for the new mobo, but it will support at the very least zen3+ 2020/2021, which gives me some room for an upgrade in the future, too.
I agree with the screen issues, Its on my list, either a high hz display and/or with gsync/freesync, when I can afford it. Good screens are expensive, and once I went to 27" I cant go smaller. :p
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I'm looking for a case. Just have two requirements:
1) very easy to work with (removing replacing a part especially hdd)
2) very easy to work with (first installation)
with my current case, when I need to take out a 2.5 inch disk (sometimes I took them out and put in a usb hdd box), I need to open both side panels, remove screws which are in such a weird position that I need a very short screwdriver.
All the sata cables and power connectors are twisted in so weird ways I'm lucky I didn't break something yet.
So I need a case with sensible hdd positions.
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On May 11 2018 23:32 mantequilla wrote:
I'm looking for a case. Just have two requirements:
1) very easy to work with (removing replacing a part especially hdd)
2) very easy to work with (first installation)
with my current case, when I need to take out a 2.5 inch disk (sometimes I took them out and put in a usb hdd box), I need to open both side panels, remove screws which are in such a weird position that I need a very short screwdriver.
All the sata cables and power connectors are twisted in so weird ways I'm lucky I didn't break something yet.
So I need a case with sensible hdd positions.
I'm looking at the Fractal Design ones, they have smart hard drive solutions. For instance this (Fractal Design R5 with one panel removed):
![[image loading]](https://www.komplett.no/mlf/produkt/bilder/fractal/define/fractal.design.define.R5.blackout-02.jpg)
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My current case is probably one of the worst ever for dealing with HDDs. Gotta remove an entire bay, which means you gotta open both sides and remove multiple toolless latches, have to remove everything between the bay and mobo so you can slide it all the way out (fan controller, cables, etc), then gotta remove the HDDs from the bay itself once it's out. Plus there's a fan attached to the end of the bay and there are two bays tightly packed, so you have to make sure to keep the cables of both clear so they don't prevent the bay from going in/out.
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Hello guys!
As I'm finally finishing uni in 2 months, I'm looking to get back into starcraft. Last 3 years I was playing on a Lenovo Y50 laptop, which was suprisingly fine running it on low settings on steady 70-80 fps. However, now I'm looking for a new rig that would be fine for both playing and streaming sc2 at least 720p/30fps. My budget would be ideally under 800 euro, and I don't really play anything else than starcraft, so from what I understand the CPU should be my priority? Thanks for all advices ^^
What is your budget?
Ideally under 800 euro
What is your monitor's native resolution?
1980x1080
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings?
Starcraft 2 + streaming it at least in 720p
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming?
not much, movies maybe
Do you intend to overclock?
No
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire?
No
Do you need an operating system?
No
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget?
No
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify.
I prefer intel over AMD really
What country will you be buying your parts in?
Poland
If you have any retailer preferences, please specify.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
On May 11 2018 23:32 mantequilla wrote:
I'm looking for a case. Just have two requirements:
1) very easy to work with (removing replacing a part especially hdd)
2) very easy to work with (first installation)
with my current case, when I need to take out a 2.5 inch disk (sometimes I took them out and put in a usb hdd box), I need to open both side panels, remove screws which are in such a weird position that I need a very short screwdriver.
All the sata cables and power connectors are twisted in so weird ways I'm lucky I didn't break something yet.
So I need a case with sensible hdd positions.
I don't look closely at a lot of cases but my current one has been excellent for airflow, installation and generally ease of use. It's an air540. There are two full-sized tool-less i think hard drive bays at the bottom of the front of the case which slot onto a power and sata plug which is pre-plugged in the back of the case, so you can plug in or swap a drive very easily without going near the cables. There's a stack of 2.5" mounts in the back for sliding SSD's into, i just have all of mine sitting in there with a bunch of sata/power cable ends hanging next to it. I can't say how it'd work with more than two 3.5" hard drives.
Here's an example of what the front end of the case looks like:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wsxKgir.jpg)
PSU is in the expanded back side with a good amount of room for cable routing - the case is more of a cube shape than the usual rectangle, it's shorter and deeper. I bought it with high hopes and it's turned out as i expected aside from needing a bit of modification for dust filtering to perform well. Give it and similar cases a look ;D
---
I started writing a rant here but moved it over to a blog about my recent PC upgrades:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/533539-8700k-4000mhz-ram-upgrade
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On May 12 2018 06:14 FrashQ wrote:
Hello guys!
As I'm finally finishing uni in 2 months, I'm looking to get back into starcraft. Last 3 years I was playing on a Lenovo Y50 laptop, which was suprisingly fine running it on low settings on steady 70-80 fps. However, now I'm looking for a new rig that would be fine for both playing and streaming sc2 at least 720p/30fps. My budget would be ideally under 800 euro, and I don't really play anything else than starcraft, so from what I understand the CPU should be my priority? Thanks for all advices ^^
What is your budget?
Ideally under 800 euro
What is your monitor's native resolution?
1980x1080
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings?
Starcraft 2 + streaming it at least in 720p
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming?
not much, movies maybe
Do you intend to overclock?
No
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire?
No
Do you need an operating system?
No
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget?
No
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify.
I prefer intel over AMD really
What country will you be buying your parts in?
Poland
If you have any retailer preferences, please specify.
I would recommend getting one of the motherboard + processor combo packages on newegg.com. They even offer mobo + cpu + ram combos as well. You generally save anywhere from 10-120 dollars if you buy the combo. The combos range from 200 USD to 600 depending on the processor/mobo. A mid to high end intel core i5 processor is what you will need(if you like intel over amd, I sure do) to play/stream and if you want extra performance if you decide to play other games in addition to sc2, go for a mid end i7(5th or 6th gen). You are going to want 12-16gb. I'd go with 16gb just to have system flexibility. THe speed of ram you get will depend on what your motherboard can handle. For graphics, ebay is flooded with gtx 1050Ti graphics cards between 100 and 150USD. A 1050TI is more than enough to stream AND play sc2 at ultra settings while also leaving you some room to do other things. You'll be able to play every game with this but you won't be able to play all AAA titles on max settings, you'll have to lower them on some. Search google for the best overclockable monitors. Look for cheap monitors that are 60hz that can overclock by at least 50%(OCing a monitor is achieved through Nvidia control panel and can only be done if you have an nvidia gpu so make sure you get an officially branded nvidia gtx 10 series gpu). If you do it this way, you can achieve a 1080p 90hz/refresh rate for the price of a cheap 60hz 1080p monitor. Your 800 euro budget comes out to roughly 960 USD. You'll be cutting it close with buying all new parts but I think it can be done. If you are open to buying used parts, you could probably end up getting a better processor or graphics card while still meetin your budget. Or you can come in well below budget with the bare minimum using pre-owned parts. It's always a gamble with pre-owned parts though, sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't.
Here is what everything should run you in USD.
Motherboard + processor combo =250-350 USD You want your processor to have 4 cores and 8 threads. Sc2 utilizes 2 cores but 4 cores + 8 threads will be good for streaming as well as any other games that you may not expect to play in the future. (make sure it has all the plug and play ports you want as well as ethernet/wifi options. Make sure you google what kind of ram and powersupplies are compatible with the mobo. You want an Intel Core 6th generation or better, an I7 isn't going to cost much more, maybe just go with an i7 5th or 6th generation instead. Make sure the motherboard has an m.2 sata slot for an ssd if you plan on going the ssd route instead of a traditional spinning disk hdd. Also make sure it has a big enough slot for the graphics card. I'd recommend staying away from all ITX/mini-itx motherboard combos as they are pricier and not all of them will fit a full sized graphics card)
12-16 GB ram= 120-150 USD (12 GB will get you buy just fine, get 16gb if you plan on using 2 monitors. Aim for DDR4 with low CL and the highest frequency possible that your motherboard will support as long as it is under 150 USD. Also make sure your motherboard supports ddr4. these prices might actually come down very soon as 3 companies got caught fixing ram prices in the market-lawsuit in progress)
Monitor=50-75 USD (remember, get a cheap 60hz overclockable monitor to OC it to 90hz)
Graphics card=100-150 USD (get a gtx 10 series so you can OC your monitor, a 1050Ti would be perfect for your build. They've been going on ebay for 100-200. You could probably score a used one for 100ish or a new one for 150, maybe 175. It has 4gb of memory, sc2 will take up about 2.5gb give or take on it's own on ultra settings. This gives you room if you decide to play other more graphically demanding games or if you decide to go with a dual monitor set up)
Power supply/fans/any extra cables/supplies=100 USD (make sure the PSU is compatible with your motherboard and that you have enough voltage. If you aren't sure, take a look a prebuilt computers with the same mobo/processor + gtx 10 series gpu to figure out the best PSU options. You are going to want at least 2 fans mounted to the tower(not including the fan on the heatseak) for good air flow, 3 fans will keep your temps under 70c when under load provided they are placed strategically)
Heatsink= 25 USD or less
1TB HDD=30-50 USD(go with this over the SSD if you really think you need all that space. If you only plan on running windows + sc2 then get the m.2 sata ssd instead)
128GB m.2 SSD= 40-50 USD(Optional, makes for booting up windows/games/programs extremely fast, my laptop takes 4 seconds to boot up start to finish)
Computer Tower=Cheap ones are around 25-30. You can get something decent in the 40-50 range. It all depends on how much you care what it looks like. Make sure the tower you are looking at has sufficient room for all your hardware.
Optical drive-optional these days, Most companies don't even release software via CD anymore, just a direct download. You can get cheap ones for under 50 dollars if you wanted one.
Windows 10= Free for unlicensed but you won't be able to change your background.
These are rough estimations based on current market prices and totals out to about 900 USD(under 800 euros). Hope this helps.
Also, If you are willing to pony up a little more money, you can get a laptop that will suit your needs that will have either a gtx 1050 or gtx 1060 in it. If you shop around you'll find one for around 1k USD. Just do your research on the models to find the one with the best cooling system since laptops usually run hotter than desktops.
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Hello,
I am in need of your help again.
It was a log time ago that I asked you for my PC recommendations and this is what you guys advised:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/aUHSnys.png)
My CPU is at 4.0Ghz and is cooled by a cooler master hyper 412S.
My PSU is a corsair CX430 that I hate because I can hear "coil whine" when the Pc is not powerd on.
What I plan to do is a small (cheap) upgrade to the case (Fractal Design Define C) and the PSU and than maybe a new GPU if I will have money to spare.
I play SC2, Counter Strike, LOL, diablo 3, and would like to play a bit more of the newer games on at least medium settings. I don't stream and I play at 1920X1080.
If you can give me a PSU wattage recommendation and maybe a GPU recommendation that wont brake the bank I would be very happy.
Hope I gave you all the info, if not please ask away.
Thanks in advance!
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When is NVIDIA going to release new GPU generation after 10xx? Is it called Volta?
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EPT
