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On April 07 2013 04:32 Myrmidon wrote:
These days there are many Phantom versions.
Phantom (original) - 25.74" x 8.74" x 21.32", 7 slots, EATX support
Phantom 410 - 20.94" x 8.46" x 20.31", 7 slots
Phantom 630 - 24.69" x 9.65" x 23.62", 9 slots
Phantom 820 - 25.59" x 9.25" x 24.09", 9 slots, EATX support
Define R4 - 20.59" x 9.13" x 18.27", 7+1 slots
Phantom is a full tower in my books, but the distinction is not really that important. Most mid towers are larger than they need to be, really, and lots of stuff straddles the line. Functionally it's very different than the Define R4 though. edit: at least in the context of ATX towers with normal layouts. I mean, we're talking about computer cases so most everything is functionally similar in the sense that they house components.
The bigger phantoms are wayyy too expensive, they are clearly not what I'm talking about. Obviously I'm referring to the 410, the only one that is anywhere near the price range of the R4. Most people mean the 410 when they just say 'phantom'. ie 'im buying a mustang' 'whoa there's no way you can afford the mustang shelby!' 'no silly just the normal $30k one that everyone gets'
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On April 06 2013 14:20 skyR wrote:
If you're in Vancouver or Richmond than I'm not sure why you wouldn't buy from NCIX unless Generic Computer price matches as well?
There's an NCIX just down the street from where I live. would it be worthwhile for me to buy parts from them rather than newegg.ca?
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Fuuuuck 5 days before I intend to buy parts for my new comp  ((
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Original Phantom is around $120 with occasional dips under (close to Define R4 price) and is actually called Phantom, unlike the Phantom 410. You can still find it in many places. Some shorthand is good, but not only is that ambiguous, it clearly refers to a different product than the one you mean.
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Your right, it could be confusing. phantom 410 is what i meant and is around $80 (it was $69 at one point, crazy cheap, i dont think mc has it at 69 anymore though). all the phantoms are great cases for a good price though (even better when on sale, 89 is a sale price for the 410).
hellfury can you not run over to ncix?
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5930 Posts
Yeah if you can find a Phantom for $69, then that's a good choice. Though there's a lot of choices if things go on special. I think a reliable $80-100 chassis is still the Define R4 because it is the most flexible chassis on the market. The fundamentals are rock solid and things like the absorbing foam mats and thick silicon grommit hard drive mounts are still used too infrequently in the PC market.
As for size, most ATX cases are larger than they need to be. Its mostly to do with PSU placement. I've got an R2 and built in an R4 and the thing is actually larger than the Chieftec Dragon I have lying around. And that's too tall by around 2".
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What is your budget?
$1200
What is your resolution?
1920x1080
What are you using it for?
SC2, Eve-Online, World of Tanks, Skyrim, Mechwarrior Online. Would like to start streaming as well at 720p (1080p if possible on this budget).
What is your upgrade cycle?
2-3 years
When do you plan on building it?
This Thursday (April 11)
Do you plan on overclocking?
No
Do you need an Operating System?
No
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
No
Where are you buying your parts from?
newegg.ca and/or ncix.ca
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Just fyi there's no way you can spend $1200 on a system for that in a reasonable way, like without just splurging on parts just because.
And some of those games really do benefit from CPU overclocking.
Would you reconsider anything or not? Do you want to spend $1200 or spend enough to meet the requirements, or what?
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On April 07 2013 16:46 Myrmidon wrote:
Just fyi there's no way you can spend $1200 on a system for that in a reasonable way, like without just splurging on parts just because.
And some of those games really do benefit from CPU overclocking.
Would you reconsider anything or not? Do you want to spend $1200 or spend enough to meet the requirements, or what?
If I can do more while staying within budget, then by all means. I'm not opposed to overclocking, I've just never done it before and would need a link guide on how to do it properly without wrecking my shit.
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There are tons of guides online and I've given the summarized approach to a basic overclock in this thread a couple of times -- it's really easy to do a nominal OC.
If you want to splurge on things, get an SSD and a nice monitor, imo. A quality monitor vs a cheap one is quite a remarkable difference when compared side by side.
A 3570K / 3770K can easily stream in HD (I do 1440p on my 3770K @ 4.6 Ghz). Graphics card you can go as much as you'd like: an HD 7970 or GTX 680 will run you around $400-500 USD and is probably well beyond what you need for the games listed, while a more modest GTX 660 is closer to $300 (and might still be beyond what you need). You can always dual card if you want, but for your needs I'd stick with just one good card (there are other concerns involved with multi-card configs).
The CPUs mentioned above will run $220-350.
A case, motherboard, and PSU will probably be in the neighborhood of 250-300 combined (you need a Z77 chipset mobo if you're going to overclock). Case is largely user preference; just map out the basics of what you want and then go browsing. Things to keep in mind are things like cable management (holes / grommets to run cables behind the mobo tray, the amount of space between underside of mobo tray and side panel, the placement of the PSU (top / bottom), the cooling fan options, 5.25"/3.5"/2.5" bays (#, tool-less vs tooled, whether you have to remove the whole drive bay to add a drive), LEDs / LED controllers, etc. Tons of options, just look around. The case specs will tell you if it supports your motherboard layout (ATX is the most common, but there are also other forms smaller / bigger like extended ATX, ITX, etc.) I recommend looking up case overviews on youtube to get the best impression.
If OCing, add another $35-130 for an aftermarket heatsink / CLC (lots of options here ranging from the Hyper 212 to the Swiftech H220 depending on your goals; a higher OC will need better cooling and you get diminishing returns pretty heavily beyond 4.6/4.7). Ram will be $50-100 -- just grab some 1600Mhz DDR3 with good timings of like 9-9-9-24 or lower. RAM is all pretty similar these days. I'd go 8GB since you have the budget for it, but you can generally get by just fine with 4GB.
Like was said earlier, with $1200 you can get a pretty top-end system, but you don't necessarily need all that for what you want to do. It will give you a little future-proofing, but the next generation of chips is already only ~2 months away for a 10-15% performance jump.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
A 3570K / 3770K can easily stream in HD (I do 1440p on my 3770K @ 4.6 Ghz)
Why run a 2560x1440 stream? I mean you can, at like 30-40fps with a 3770k@4.6ghz, but why? I mean something like 98% of your viewers will have a worse stream viewing experience because you are spending a ton of bits and encoding time on something they are incapable of viewing, instead of the opportunity cost of making 1920x1080 better
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With Rosewill people are mostly just talking about Capstone. Lightning, Tachyon, and Fortress are more expensive, and Hercules is a joke. Hive and Green can be good depending on price, but they're not that special. The others range from really bad to kinda okay.
Anyway, cheap option would be Corsair CX430. The cheap Silverstone stuff isn't better than that. The OEM Seasonic model there has short cables, not much supporting stuff in the box, mediocre capacitors, though it's good otherwise. Thermaltake models there are not the right TR2 models. XFX Core is almost the same design as the Seasonic but with proper cables, better capacitors, etc. so that is probably what you want.
Personally I wouldn't want a 24" TN monitor when you can get a 23.6" IPS at a similar price, but the TN would be a little better with less motion blurring.
Unless you're overclocking a lot and pushing limits, or running multiple graphics cards, all those cases linked are fine as-is without additional fans. Those cases you listed are good.
On April 07 2013 21:17 Cyro wrote:Why run a 2560x1440 stream? I mean you can, at like 30-40fps with a 3770k@4.6ghz, but why? I mean something like 98% of your viewers will have a worse stream viewing experience because you are spending a ton of bits and encoding time on something they are incapable of viewing, instead of the opportunity cost of making 1920x1080 better
Might just be talking about input resolution, which I think should impact capture and encoding times. I hope.
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On April 07 2013 21:17 Cyro wrote:Why run a 2560x1440 stream? I mean you can, at like 30-40fps with a 3770k@4.6ghz, but why? I mean something like 98% of your viewers will have a worse stream viewing experience because you are spending a ton of bits and encoding time on something they are incapable of viewing, instead of the opportunity cost of making 1920x1080 better
Or 720p with lovely 4:1 downscaling  . <3 1440p, can hardly wait for a 4k monitor.
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Hungary11305 Posts
My lady wants to buy a desktop! Here's what we are on about:
+ Show Spoiler [questionnaire] +1) What is your budget? Not fixed. We are looking for a reasonably priced solution that can fulfil the requirements in 3). 2) What is your resolution? 1920x1080 most likely. 3) What are you using it for? No gaming. It's meant as a working machine, with more load than a usual office PC since she's working in computational neuroscience. So it should have some computation power, just not excessively. Need a screen as well, but no OS right now. 4) What is your upgrade cycle? No regular upgrades planned, it should last a while. When do you plan on building it? Soon. Do you plan on overclocking? No. Do you need an Operating System? No. Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? No. Where are you buying your parts from? I was looking at www.mindfactory.de and the links lead there too. They are generally reliable and also at a good price point.
I am mostly looking for reliable, good parts without being excessively expensive. Being (relatively) silent is a great plus too. Saving energy is always nice. Here's what I arrived at with some comments on my train of thought:
Tower: CoolerMaster Elite 344 Midi Tower w/o PSU schwarz/blau € 27,27
- I am using as CoolerMaster myself right now and it's fine for the price. Front USB 3.0 is convenient. Despite the name, it appears to be a Mini, but that should do fine.
PSU 350 Watt Seasonic SS-350ET Non-Modular 80+ € 40,16
- I am very happy with my own Seasonic (S12II, 520W), so I'd stick with the brand if there are no objections.
CPU Intel Core i3 3220 2x 3.30GHz So.1155 BOX € 115,64
- For the use it will get, this appears like the most bang-for-the-buck CPU. 10 Euro less gives you a 3210, I am not sure if the difference is notable.
RAM 8GB Corsair ValueSelect DDR3-1333 DIMM CL9 Single € 45,45
- I prefer 8 over 4 for this one and just picked a decent-looking kit by a known manufacturer which was on offer.
Cooler Xigmatek Loki SD963 AMD und Intel € 15,41
- The CPU cooler doesn't appear too important to me. This one looked decent.
Board ASRock B75M-DGS Intel B75 So.1155 Dual Channel DDR3 mATX Retail € 47,99
- B75 appeared to me like the best entry point for Ivy Bridge CPUs. Offers only one 6GB Sata connector, which I would use on the SSD and which probably would be wasted anyway for the WD. Or is that an issue?
SSD 120GB Samsung 840 Basic Series 2.5" (6.4cm) SATA 6Gb/s TLC Toggle (MZ-7TD120BW) € 90,80
- For her needs, a SSD might provide a nice boost in everyday work. It doesn't have to be 120 GB, but the Samsung looks like a nice offer to me.
Storage: 1000GB WD Green WD10EZRX 64MB 3.5" (8.9cm) SATA 6Gb/s € 53,94
- Silent, decently sized.
DVD LG Electronics GH24NS95 DVD-RW SATA 1.5Gb/s intern schwarz Bulk € 15,65
- generic DVD burner.
Screen 23" (58,42cm) Dell UltraSharp U2312HM € 185,90
- Generally received favorable reviews and, again, appears to be at a good price point. The screen is among the things I know least about, so if there are valid alternatives, I'd be happy to see them.
Total: € 638,21
Thanks for your time! Any suggestions are welcome!
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Might just be talking about input resolution, which I think should impact capture and encoding times. I hope.
Input resolution does not affect encoding times and there were specifically a crapton of performance updates to Xsplit in order to lower or remove it's effect on game performance, i would hope to OBS too:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sI3KwYu.png)
That's the same input resolution (1920x1080) without an encoding load, same scene on low settings (950@3.8ghz, gtx260/580 had same fps on both). Consistent and reproducible within a few %. Encode vs no encode is almost invisible to this test, that is, CPU under just sc2 load vs encoding static scene at 1920x1080, 60fps, veryfast (which pulls CPU load from, say, 35% to 75%) does not actually change framerate of the game, because it's almost entirely using resources that were just idle anyway
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On April 08 2013 01:44 Aesop wrote:+ Show Spoiler +My lady wants to buy a desktop! Here's what we are on about: + Show Spoiler [questionnaire] +1) What is your budget? Not fixed. We are looking for a reasonably priced solution that can fulfil the requirements in 3). 2) What is your resolution? 1920x1080 most likely. 3) What are you using it for? No gaming. It's meant as a working machine, with more load than a usual office PC since she's working in computational neuroscience. So it should have some computation power, just not excessively. Need a screen as well, but no OS right now. 4) What is your upgrade cycle? No regular upgrades planned, it should last a while. When do you plan on building it? Soon. Do you plan on overclocking? No. Do you need an Operating System? No. Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? No. Where are you buying your parts from? I was looking at www.mindfactory.de and the links lead there too. They are generally reliable and also at a good price point. I am mostly looking for reliable, good parts without being excessively expensive. Being (relatively) silent is a great plus too. Saving energy is always nice. Here's what I arrived at with some comments on my train of thought: Tower: CoolerMaster Elite 344 Midi Tower w/o PSU schwarz/blau € 27,27 - I am using as CoolerMaster myself right now and it's fine for the price. Front USB 3.0 is convenient. Despite the name, it appears to be a Mini, but that should do fine. PSU 350 Watt Seasonic SS-350ET Non-Modular 80+ € 40,16 - I am very happy with my own Seasonic (S12II, 520W), so I'd stick with the brand if there are no objections. CPU Intel Core i3 3220 2x 3.30GHz So.1155 BOX € 115,64 - For the use it will get, this appears like the most bang-for-the-buck CPU. 10 Euro less gives you a 3210, I am not sure if the difference is notable. RAM 8GB Corsair ValueSelect DDR3-1333 DIMM CL9 Single € 45,45 - I prefer 8 over 4 for this one and just picked a decent-looking kit by a known manufacturer which was on offer. Cooler Xigmatek Loki SD963 AMD und Intel € 15,41 - The CPU cooler doesn't appear too important to me. This one looked decent. Board ASRock B75M-DGS Intel B75 So.1155 Dual Channel DDR3 mATX Retail € 47,99 - B75 appeared to me like the best entry point for Ivy Bridge CPUs. Offers only one 6GB Sata connector, which I would use on the SSD and which probably would be wasted anyway for the WD. Or is that an issue? SSD 120GB Samsung 840 Basic Series 2.5" (6.4cm) SATA 6Gb/s TLC Toggle (MZ-7TD120BW) € 90,80 - For her needs, a SSD might provide a nice boost in everyday work. It doesn't have to be 120 GB, but the Samsung looks like a nice offer to me. Storage: 1000GB WD Green WD10EZRX 64MB 3.5" (8.9cm) SATA 6Gb/s € 53,94 - Silent, decently sized. DVD LG Electronics GH24NS95 DVD-RW SATA 1.5Gb/s intern schwarz Bulk € 15,65 - generic DVD burner. Screen 23" (58,42cm) Dell UltraSharp U2312HM € 185,90 - Generally received favorable reviews and, again, appears to be at a good price point. The screen is among the things I know least about, so if there are valid alternatives, I'd be happy to see them. Total: € 638,21 Thanks for your time! Any suggestions are welcome!
For some computations having the RAM in dual channel rather than single channel would be an advantage.
You're right regarding the motherboard. If viewing a lot of documents or programs with white or light background, the heavy antiglare coating on the U2312HM could be a disadvantage, looking grainy; however, if there is a lot of light behind, the antiglare would help a lot with that.
At around 40 euros you might as well just get the XFX Core (v2) 450W. It's built by Seasonic, a slight update and with upgraded parts over the SS-350ET so pretty much strictly better. Or the Enermax Triathlor 300W.
Depending on the computations, I'd consider a Core i5-3470 (quad core), possibly a Xeon E3-1230v2 (equivalent to i7; quad core with hyperthreading).
btw you know the CPU comes with a boxed cooler? If you set the fan control decently, Loki should be a bit quieter though.
Other picks look pretty reasonable.
edit:
On April 08 2013 01:56 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + Might just be talking about input resolution, which I think should impact capture and encoding times. I hope. Input resolution does not affect encoding times and there were specifically a crapton of performance updates to Xsplit in order to lower or remove it's effect on game performance, i would hope to OBS too:
Input resolution should have an effect, right? Just a very small one? Any way you look at it, you have to copy more bits into memory to store the image and work with more, at least at some stage.
I guess they just do some cheap and quick resize into target resolution and operate on that source? That's probably less accurate than what could be done, though at small visual performance penalty. But that's probably what's going on? And if so, then yeah, impact would be minimal and probably should be considered zero. My bad.
Have you gone through and figured out what parts of the encoding take a relatively high amount of time? Or do you know? Maybe the right way to think about it is to consider the difference in processing speed when encoding at ultrafast as compared to placebo. Almost all the operations and all the time taken come from searching for a better representation of the data when using the slower parameters.
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@Aesop, it might be useful to know the main programs your lady is running. Sometimes certain programs can benefit from GPUs or multiple threads. So if most of her work is running a few programs a lot, that may be useful. On the other hand, if everything is proprietary applications programmed in her lab, there probably won't be any literature on what kind of hardware is most beneficial.
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Hungary11305 Posts
On April 08 2013 02:01 Myrmidon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 01:44 Aesop wrote:+ Show Spoiler +My lady wants to buy a desktop! Here's what we are on about: + Show Spoiler [questionnaire] +1) What is your budget? Not fixed. We are looking for a reasonably priced solution that can fulfil the requirements in 3). 2) What is your resolution? 1920x1080 most likely. 3) What are you using it for? No gaming. It's meant as a working machine, with more load than a usual office PC since she's working in computational neuroscience. So it should have some computation power, just not excessively. Need a screen as well, but no OS right now. 4) What is your upgrade cycle? No regular upgrades planned, it should last a while. When do you plan on building it? Soon. Do you plan on overclocking? No. Do you need an Operating System? No. Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? No. Where are you buying your parts from? I was looking at www.mindfactory.de and the links lead there too. They are generally reliable and also at a good price point. I am mostly looking for reliable, good parts without being excessively expensive. Being (relatively) silent is a great plus too. Saving energy is always nice. Here's what I arrived at with some comments on my train of thought: Tower: CoolerMaster Elite 344 Midi Tower w/o PSU schwarz/blau € 27,27 - I am using as CoolerMaster myself right now and it's fine for the price. Front USB 3.0 is convenient. Despite the name, it appears to be a Mini, but that should do fine. PSU 350 Watt Seasonic SS-350ET Non-Modular 80+ € 40,16 - I am very happy with my own Seasonic (S12II, 520W), so I'd stick with the brand if there are no objections. CPU Intel Core i3 3220 2x 3.30GHz So.1155 BOX € 115,64 - For the use it will get, this appears like the most bang-for-the-buck CPU. 10 Euro less gives you a 3210, I am not sure if the difference is notable. RAM 8GB Corsair ValueSelect DDR3-1333 DIMM CL9 Single € 45,45 - I prefer 8 over 4 for this one and just picked a decent-looking kit by a known manufacturer which was on offer. Cooler Xigmatek Loki SD963 AMD und Intel € 15,41 - The CPU cooler doesn't appear too important to me. This one looked decent. Board ASRock B75M-DGS Intel B75 So.1155 Dual Channel DDR3 mATX Retail € 47,99 - B75 appeared to me like the best entry point for Ivy Bridge CPUs. Offers only one 6GB Sata connector, which I would use on the SSD and which probably would be wasted anyway for the WD. Or is that an issue? SSD 120GB Samsung 840 Basic Series 2.5" (6.4cm) SATA 6Gb/s TLC Toggle (MZ-7TD120BW) € 90,80 - For her needs, a SSD might provide a nice boost in everyday work. It doesn't have to be 120 GB, but the Samsung looks like a nice offer to me. Storage: 1000GB WD Green WD10EZRX 64MB 3.5" (8.9cm) SATA 6Gb/s € 53,94 - Silent, decently sized. DVD LG Electronics GH24NS95 DVD-RW SATA 1.5Gb/s intern schwarz Bulk € 15,65 - generic DVD burner. Screen 23" (58,42cm) Dell UltraSharp U2312HM € 185,90 - Generally received favorable reviews and, again, appears to be at a good price point. The screen is among the things I know least about, so if there are valid alternatives, I'd be happy to see them. Total: € 638,21 Thanks for your time! Any suggestions are welcome! For some computations having the RAM in dual channel rather than single channel would be an advantage. You're right regarding the motherboard. If viewing a lot of documents or programs with white or light background, the heavy antiglare coating on the U2312HM could be a disadvantage, looking grainy; however, if there is a lot of light behind, the antiglare would help a lot with that. At around 40 euros you might as well just get the XFX Core (v2) 450W. It's built by Seasonic, a slight update and with upgraded parts over the SS-350ET so pretty much strictly better. Or the Enermax Triathlor 300W. Depending on the computations, I'd consider a Core i5-3470 (quad core), possibly a Xeon E3-1230v2 (equivalent to i7; quad core with hyperthreading). btw you know the CPU comes with a boxed cooler? If you set the fan control decently, Loki should be a bit quieter though. Other picks look pretty reasonable.
Thanks for your suggestions! I'll definitely switch the PSU and get 2x4GB instead of 1x8. We'll consider the CPU-change. I did not consider that the CPU came with a cooler, thanks for pointing that out, but still the less noise, the better.
On April 08 2013 02:19 MisterFred wrote:
@Aesop, it might be useful to know the main programs your lady is running. Sometimes certain programs can benefit from GPUs or multiple threads. So if most of her work is running a few programs a lot, that may be useful. On the other hand, if everything is proprietary applications programmed in her lab, there probably won't be any literature on what kind of hardware is most beneficial.
I think it's mostly proprietary applications, if anything else comes up, I'll get back to you.
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EPT
