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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Although i'm reserving judgment on the issue for now, as one cannot tell how this mechanic will perform, i do wonder if this will be too useful for Protoss (as i am a protoss player)
Currently, there's no matchup where i feel like i need an extra X gas, just having more bases with geysers does the trick; and only when im playing a fast arb build vs T or needing gas for the first templar and storm vs Z is where i'd be using this in SC1..
I dont know how gas heavy things will be in sc2, but if expanding become similar to Sc1 (which it probably will) i dont see how this will serve too much of a purpose other that rare instances throughout a game =/
on that note 2 minute cooldown is rather rediculous.. thats like 7 times in a 14 minute game =/ (obviously less in reality)
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Actually I think mechanics shall be underused as well, but heaving an option is handy. Maybe cooldown should be like 1 minute?
Trying to change the subject: Infestor is hive tech and lurker is at lair. Some people may be happy now.
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It's no different than sbs, it's just another thing to make you click more on your buildings and workers.
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It is different because in SC it is up to you what you want to do to get ahead of your opponent while in SC2 you must build in (a weird form of) gas management into your play.
Forcing players to do certain stuff that is not neccessary is utterly retarded. Like they want to make competitive gamers walk a thin line as if competitors must be punished for being competitive......
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It IS different to sbs.
When you're building units and workers there is a very definate sense of progress. Every extra worker is more minerals, now and forever. Every extra unit is, hey, a unit! They kill shit for you! I don't think it's unfair to say that constructing buildings and units is fun by itself, and at least something of why macro can be considered fun in and of itself.
Perfecting it isn't a pain, in other words, but a pleasure. This task... well. On the one hand, yes, it will probably create some interesting early build options. We could probably do the same with, I dunno, increasing the number of possible workers on gas or something like that, I'm sure the ratios could work out roughly the same if that's important. On the downside, it's boring as heck and isn't an extension of anything that makes the game fun in the first place.
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On June 29 2008 21:16 ForAdun wrote:
It is different because in SC it is up to you what you want to do to get ahead of your opponent while in SC2 you must build in (a weird form of) gas management into your play.
Forcing players to do certain stuff that is not neccessary is utterly retarded. Like they want to make competitive gamers walk a thin line as if competitors must be punished for being competitive......
So you do mean that you do not have to build in unit production into your strats in starcraft? Even if you have only a few raxes you still need to dedicate time to go back and que up units, its impossible to go around.
Early everyone can manage the gas juggling, but when you have multiple expansions and your enemy is pressuring you it starts to get really tricky to do it well exactly like how sbs works.
On June 29 2008 21:24 Tracil wrote:
Every extra unit is, hey, a unit! They kill shit for you! I don't think it's unfair to say that constructing buildings and units is fun by itself, and at least something of why macro can be considered fun in and of itself.
Um, gathering resources is a part in constructing units, now they only moved the clicsk from actually clicking the unit icon to clicking the extractor icon and moving workers around...
On June 29 2008 21:24 Tracil wrote:
On the downside, it's boring as heck and isn't an extension of anything that makes the game fun in the first place.
Why is clicking on this building more boring than clicking on other buildings? You get more gas doing it, which allows you to build more interesting units which allows you to win which is fun. Its exactly the same as sbs.
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On June 29 2008 21:28 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2008 21:16 ForAdun wrote:
It is different because in SC it is up to you what you want to do to get ahead of your opponent while in SC2 you must build in (a weird form of) gas management into your play.
Forcing players to do certain stuff that is not neccessary is utterly retarded. Like they want to make competitive gamers walk a thin line as if competitors must be punished for being competitive...... So you do mean that you do not have to build in unit production into your strats in starcraft? Even if you have only a few raxes you still need to dedicate time to go back and que up units, its impossible to go around. Early everyone can manage the gas juggling, but when you have multiple expansions and your enemy is pressuring you it starts to get really tricky to do it well exactly like how sbs works. Show nested quote +On June 29 2008 21:24 Tracil wrote:
Every extra unit is, hey, a unit! They kill shit for you! I don't think it's unfair to say that constructing buildings and units is fun by itself, and at least something of why macro can be considered fun in and of itself.
Um, gathering resources is a part in constructing units, now they only moved the clicsk from actually clicking the unit icon to clicking the extractor icon and moving workers around... Show nested quote +On June 29 2008 21:24 Tracil wrote:
On the downside, it's boring as heck and isn't an extension of anything that makes the game fun in the first place. Why is clicking on this building more boring than clicking on other buildings? You get more gas doing it, which allows you to build more interesting units which allows you to win which is fun. Its exactly the same as sbs.
I don't get why you think it works like SBS, hello it doesn't? SBS (or MBS) is a basic way how you are able to manage all your buildings. Alright, I think I once heard about such thing as game controls.
And then we have this (new! impressive! flubbertastic!) getting quicker gas by clicking some weird button on your refineries or adding more workers to them and that way raising your gas count which is just a weird idea of some guy who ran out of ideas because he's so stubborn not to accept reality which is that MBS is for sissies and has to come up with some seriously retarded press-me-and-I-will-say-that-I-love-you-and-give-you-some-extra-vespene-gas-while-I'm-at-it idea and he actually thinks he will satisfy skilled gamers with that brainfart. Yeah, brainfart it is. "He" is meant to be the crew working out the SC2 gameplay, btw.
So, lets see: I will now put 3-4 workers into my refinery. Cool, it works. "Hey dude (random guy sitting next to you and watching you play), it's time to send some extra workers into your refinery, you know!" What? Did that random guy just tell me what to do? That guy who just bought the game, read about the features and believes he knows anything at all? Yeah, he did! The bad news is: he's actually right! Lets follow his instructions.
...
A few minutes later...
"Hey dude, it's time to send..." KILL KILL KILL!!!
I exaggerated just a little bit but you get my point.
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I'm sure any good player will say this idea sucks really bad and all the pro mbs noobs will say it's good because they know deep down it sucks and if it gets put in mbs will probably stay
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Exept that´s not how it works apperantly. Instead of temporary more workers you can "drill deeper" for minerals to open up more gas in that geyser.
Situation being: Geyser empty. What to do?
1. Send the workers to mine minerals.
2. Spend minerals to earn more gas.
What you do depends on several factors: Do you need gas? Do you want to /can you expand? Is the Mineral -> Gas Trade worth it in the current situation? I could go on.
The point is that you aren´t clicking for more gas but "trading" Minerals for Gas. In SC we had lots of juggling in production to keep both resources "out of the bank", now we have another option to do so.
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On June 29 2008 21:24 Tracil wrote:
It IS different to sbs.
Imagine MBS is tatally accepted. Imagine even more: they want to ban SBS comletelly meaning u can select only all of your gateways at a time. Now that's stupid isn't it? Why would you force player to build x6 zealots or x6 goons at a time if he needs 2 zealots and 2 goons 1 DT and 1 HT? The player sacrifices his apm to make a more useful unit mix. Now to the lesser extent the banning gas-thing is the same stupid thing. You are given choice to sacrifice apm+minerals+workers_time to have some more gas. What's wrong? Yes it gives an advantege if the the gas is very precious but at a price, just like SBS does in terms of unit mix. But in most cases it will not be worth it, much better to expand or take the gas earlier if you really need it, just as you can use MBS to get unit mix over time (6 zeals + 6 goons + occasional SBselected DTs and HTs). But when a pinch comes you may desperetly need it to pump gas (just as you may desperetly need to use SBS even though MBS is there), and it will be usefull.
Now you wouldn't ban SBS, why would you ban the gas trick?
P.S. generally I think the idea is better then taking out MBS but it IS artificial and I would rather blizzard add macro some other way.
On June 29 2008 22:07 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
I'm sure any good player will say this idea sucks really bad and all the pro mbs noobs will say it's good because they know deep down it sucks and if it gets put in mbs will probably stay
in other words all who are against - good players, and all who are for it - noobs? Nice way to carry a discussion. I suggest you get banned from sc2 section.
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the terran gameplay vid won't work for me. anyone else having this problem?
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On June 29 2008 22:10 Unentschieden wrote:
Exept that´s not how it works apperantly. Instead of temporary more workers you can "drill deeper" for minerals to open up more gas in that geyser.
Situation being: Geyser empty. What to do?
1. Send the workers to mine minerals.
2. Spend minerals to earn more gas.
What you do depends on several factors: Do you need gas? Do you want to /can you expand? Is the Mineral -> Gas Trade worth it in the current situation? I could go on.
The point is that you aren´t clicking for more gas but "trading" Minerals for Gas. In SC we had lots of juggling in production to keep both resources "out of the bank", now we have another option to do so.
Yeah what if this isn't just a button but sending more workers to gas for this 30secs?
Like they can enter and leave Refinery/etc 2x faster?
Add that Blizzard will favor 2 gazers on it's maps...?
And new workers mine 6 (or as I read 5) minerals per cycle?
Talking about mining less minerals I'm little scared if it won't turn SC2 totally into W3, with much less expansions because every expansion is too expensive for long time in game?
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On June 29 2008 22:52 homeless_guy wrote:
the terran gameplay vid won't work for me. anyone else having this problem?
me too I have no idea how to watch it... when I click link on this Spanish forum nothing happens, just black screen and [no video] :/
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u have to download it (930 mb)
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ok but how to do it? click Starcraft II Gameplay and wait?
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On June 29 2008 23:20 MrRammstein wrote:
ok but how to do it? click Starcraft II Gameplay and wait?
I just clik and then a downloading window pop up
Edit : At starcraft-esp (spanish community) they have 1st review of Protoss, Terran, Zerg
If a spanish can read it and tell us if there is new informations. I would be gratefull
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mm you don't use Mozilla? it opened liked stream, no download or pause options :/ played for second and just paused itself :/ can anyone upload torrent of it to VODs section?
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On June 29 2008 22:56 MrRammstein wrote:
Yeah what if this isn't just a button but sending more workers to gas for this 30secs?
Like they can enter and leave Refinery/etc 2x faster?
Add that Blizzard will favor 2 gazers on it's maps...?
And new workers mine 6 (or as I read 5) minerals per cycle?
Talking about mining less minerals I'm little scared if it won't turn SC2 totally into W3, with much less expansions because every expansion is too expensive for long time in game?
That just came up in Battle.net:
Cavez wrote:
Here is how it works. All numbers are subject to change. We have changed the balance since the WWI build and will be fiddling with the balance this coming week for sure.
You start with two Vespene Geysers in your base and at every expansion (some maps will not do this of course, but all the WWI maps do). Optimal number of workers per gas collection building is 3 (so you need 6 total).
All gas collection buildings start with a certain amount of gas (like SC1). I believe it's 1000 in your WWI build.
When a gas collector runs out it becomes "depleted" (like SC1). A depleted gas collector still allows you to harvest some gas (like SC1). In the WWI build you collect 6 gas per trip from a working gas collector and 2 gas per trip when depleted.
All gas collectors have a "Restore Gas" (name temp) button that you can use to return your gas collector to a non-depleted state. In the WWI build this gets you 400 gas back into your collector. Restoring Gas costs 100 minerals and takes the gas collector down for 45 seconds (all numbers temp).
Like all things this is work-in-progress, but here is what we have seen in the games we have played:
1) You can choose how much gas you want. The more gas you want, the less minerals you will have. If you build your 2nd gas collector too soon, you may have the wrong resource mix. If you go gas too late, you may have the wrong resource mix. If you use "Restore Gas" too few times you may not have enough gas to do some of the crazy end-game stuff. If you use it to often early on you may have too much gas and not enough minerals.
2) Some of the more mass-able units are very, very gas heavy. You can scout a player and gain some sense which way he is headed based on how quickly he goes for double gas.
3) Sometimes you don't want to "Restore Gas" if you need just a little more gas in the short term because you are trying to tech or build something critical. Since it takes down your gas collector for 45 seconds you may need to hold if you are close to being able to afford something that requires gas. This of course damages your gas collection for the long haul which makes the choice difficult.
Why we are trying it:
1) We think gas could be more interesting than it was in the original StarCraft.
2) We think StarCraft 2 can benefit from additional economy choices.
I think that's all of it. Now that you have complete information, please discuss. =) Sorry for the forum spam. I don't have the tools handy to deal with it.
Later:
Minerals are down to 5 per trip, but they harvest a little more quickly. We have been doing some timed comparisons of minerals in the original SC to SC2 and we have been really putting a lot of effort into getting the collection rate to be the same. The pathing is SO much better in SC2 that we were collecting minerals at a ferocious rate.
So now mineral collection is pretty close to SC1.
I like that they try to make the economy more complex and involving. More depht is definetly better than just "press button for more gas every 2 minutes".
2 Geysers are supposed to make it easier to tell what economic strategy your enemy might try, actually there is a lot more "visualization" apparant in SC2 then SC.
Didn´t they say that they wanted to make every upgrade visible is reasonable?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.sclegacy.com/features/WWI08/artpanel/IMG_1866.jpg)
