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[O] WWI Starcraft 2 information - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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trollbone
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
France1905 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-29 08:42:50
June 29 2008 08:24 GMT
#41
starcraft-esp.com

first-person Terran gameplay on Shakuras (30 minute video)
- by 251
ForAdun
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany986 Posts
June 29 2008 08:43 GMT
#42
Am I the only one who hates the idea of having to pay extra attention on gas production every few minutes at all gas expansions just because blizzard cannot accept that the much better solution is to remove MBS and automine? This is ridiculous, one useless feature leads to another. They want to make the game more challening but what they really do is destroying the game feel, it becomes so awkward because it forces the gamer to do one-two unneccessary things at certain times to get ahead of his opponent rather than simply letting him manage things better like in SC. That crap reminds me of endless item-management in games like Diablo 2 while you actually want to bash monsters, NO IT IS NOT FUN TO MANAGE ITEMS, NOT FOR COMPETITIVE GAMERS!!)
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
June 29 2008 09:00 GMT
#43
Hehe I sort of feel that way, it seems a little contrived

Lots of people complain about "sbs being like an arcade game" or whatever, well, this is much closer to that. But we'll see, it could be very good.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-29 09:23:41
June 29 2008 09:20 GMT
#44
On June 29 2008 18:00 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Hehe I sort of feel that way, it seems a little contrived

Lots of people complain about "sbs being like an arcade game" or whatever, well, this is much closer to that. But we'll see, it could be very good.

This do not make lesser players games any more complicated at all since you can easily live with less gas and more mins instead.

All the ability does is trade minerals for gas, but it costs a lot of clicks and timing since i assume that the workers do not auto go back to minerals when its done and you have to remember when the next time to gas boost is. For high lvl players gas is worth more than minerals, but for low level players its the other way around so this ability targets perfectly on the learning curve. An average player might use it for rushes etc, a noob wont use it at all and the highend players will use it constantly to pump gas heavy armies.

It might seem more forced than sbs but it certainly is more balanced (Expensive units costs a lot less clicks than cheap with sbs) and do not alienate the lesser players at all.

Atleast to me this solution seems very elegant.

Edit: And I do not thik that every pro wants to get gas over minerals all of the time either, so this is not just a "Do it every time its up" type of ability.
paper
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
13196 Posts
June 29 2008 09:44 GMT
#45
On June 29 2008 17:43 ForAdun wrote:
Am I the only one who hates the idea of having to pay extra attention on gas production every few minutes at all gas expansions just because blizzard cannot accept that the much better solution is to remove MBS and automine? This is ridiculous, one useless feature leads to another. They want to make the game more challening but what they really do is destroying the game feel, it becomes so awkward because it forces the gamer to do one-two unneccessary things at certain times to get ahead of his opponent rather than simply letting him manage things better like in SC. That crap reminds me of endless item-management in games like Diablo 2 while you actually want to bash monsters, NO IT IS NOT FUN TO MANAGE ITEMS, NOT FOR COMPETITIVE GAMERS!!)


qft.

very artificial and unnecessary change

i don't see how anyone likes this shit
Hates Fun🤔
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
June 29 2008 09:50 GMT
#46
On June 29 2008 18:20 Klockan3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2008 18:00 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Hehe I sort of feel that way, it seems a little contrived

Lots of people complain about "sbs being like an arcade game" or whatever, well, this is much closer to that. But we'll see, it could be very good.

This do not make lesser players games any more complicated at all since you can easily live with less gas and more mins instead.

All the ability does is trade minerals for gas, but it costs a lot of clicks and timing since i assume that the workers do not auto go back to minerals when its done and you have to remember when the next time to gas boost is. For high lvl players gas is worth more than minerals, but for low level players its the other way around so this ability targets perfectly on the learning curve. An average player might use it for rushes etc, a noob wont use it at all and the highend players will use it constantly to pump gas heavy armies.

It might seem more forced than sbs but it certainly is more balanced (Expensive units costs a lot less clicks than cheap with sbs) and do not alienate the lesser players at all.

Atleast to me this solution seems very elegant.

Edit: And I do not thik that every pro wants to get gas over minerals all of the time either, so this is not just a "Do it every time its up" type of ability.

Yeah, people already do gas juggling, so this could be another level of that I guess. Good points.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
PobTheCad
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
Australia893 Posts
June 29 2008 10:02 GMT
#47
it shouldnt be every 2 minutes it should be max 3 times (2 minutes min intervals) per game
that could add some better strategy

also could you MBS all your refinerys and do it to them all at the same time?
Once again back is the incredible!
Tracil
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Australia505 Posts
June 29 2008 10:16 GMT
#48
it shouldnt be every 2 minutes it should be max 3 times (2 minutes min intervals) per game
that could add some better strategy


No it wouldn't, you'd just use them ASAP to get the extra gas.

I don't like this change at all. When there are innovative ideas such as how reapers were produced (instant production, recharges over time), warp gates, the old thor, and mobile zerg larvae, I... can't see how this adds value to the game. Especially not if gas is what allows you to build the really potent units to the extent it is in BW (thus more gas > more minerals almost anywhere. Probably.)

I've heard some of the above were taken out, and that saddened me a lot. I'd much rather see methods like that used than this boring 'go back to base, hit button to not lose game in 15 minutes' crap.
Shooting
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
June 29 2008 10:22 GMT
#49
I´m warming up to the gas idea. From another source it´s described that you can "add" more gas to a empty geyser by paying Minerals. Meaning that this won´t even come up with Maps with increased Resource deposits (all current played SC Maps have more Resourced per "base" than Official Blizzard ones had AFAIK).

That makes expanding a bit more complex and suggests (not forces) you to expand. Compared to manualmine this is a lot more userfriendly.
HaLLeBaRy
Profile Joined May 2008
Turkey340 Posts
June 29 2008 10:23 GMT
#50
That's a horrible solution not only because of reasons already stated but also because for example in tvz when facing many ultras you can kill certain amounts and know he won't be able to remake them all but when you can increase your economy just by clicking something it breaks the whole way economy works
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
June 29 2008 10:57 GMT
#51
Obviously the solution is much worse than the 'problem'.


Strange thing is pro MBS people seem to like it.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-29 11:05:26
June 29 2008 11:04 GMT
#52
On June 29 2008 19:23 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
That's a horrible solution not only because of reasons already stated but also because for example in tvz when facing many ultras you can kill certain amounts and know he won't be able to remake them all but when you can increase your economy just by clicking something it breaks the whole way economy works


no it doesn't. You are aware of his ability to boost gas and thus any pumping up of gas-heavy-units shall not be unexpected
HaLLeBaRy
Profile Joined May 2008
Turkey340 Posts
June 29 2008 11:14 GMT
#53
On June 29 2008 20:04 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2008 19:23 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
That's a horrible solution not only because of reasons already stated but also because for example in tvz when facing many ultras you can kill certain amounts and know he won't be able to remake them all but when you can increase your economy just by clicking something it breaks the whole way economy works


no it doesn't. You are aware of his ability to boost gas and thus any pumping up of gas-heavy-units shall not be unexpected

But you don't know if hes choosing to do it or not unless they make this not lose any minerals in which case there's no reason not to use it and that's just a stupid replacement for sc1 macro
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
June 29 2008 11:17 GMT
#54
I like the idea, but I think a better tweak would be to have it togglable at all times, but rather it drains your vespene resource faster. So instead of the 1:1 ratio we have now (you take 8, the vespene count goes down by 8), you might take 8 but the count goes down 16. The reason why I like the idea is as mentioned before, it's another step of gas toggling, and if it were in SC I can already thinking of some nifty terran metal timing pushes that can be spawned off of that mechanic.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
HaLLeBaRy
Profile Joined May 2008
Turkey340 Posts
June 29 2008 11:21 GMT
#55
On June 29 2008 20:17 Southlight wrote:
I like the idea, but I think a better tweak would be to have it togglable at all times, but rather it drains your vespene resource faster. So instead of the 1:1 ratio we have now (you take 8, the vespene count goes down by 8), you might take 8 but the count goes down 16. The reason why I like the idea is as mentioned before, it's another step of gas toggling, and if it were in SC I can already thinking of some nifty terran metal timing pushes that can be spawned off of that mechanic.

That's horrible you'd have to predict terran pushes that can come before than they should because of this ability? This just rapes timing
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-29 11:32:00
June 29 2008 11:29 GMT
#56
On June 29 2008 19:57 BlackStar wrote:
Strange thing is pro MBS people seem to like it.

Even stranger is that pro sbs people seems to hate it eventhough its the same thing but in a different package.

And not its not just another button to press. You have to time when the cooldown is ready, just like you have to time unit production. Then you have to go back to your base, select 3 workers which just turned in minerals and then tell them to mine gas, when they arrive at the extractor activate the ability, go back to do other stuff for 30 secs or whatever the time is and then you need to go back and reissue them to the mineral line, repeat when the cooldown is up.

Now, if you do this for several bases macro load will get very comparable to sbs macro however the low-end players wont even care about this since to them minerals is the shit.
In the end, low end players wont suffer at all from this, high end players still get a huge advantage from the macro tasks and everyone should be happy.

Why is this better than sbs? Since its an option. Building units is not an option, its a requirement.

On June 29 2008 20:14 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2008 20:04 Cheerio wrote:
On June 29 2008 19:23 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
That's a horrible solution not only because of reasons already stated but also because for example in tvz when facing many ultras you can kill certain amounts and know he won't be able to remake them all but when you can increase your economy just by clicking something it breaks the whole way economy works


no it doesn't. You are aware of his ability to boost gas and thus any pumping up of gas-heavy-units shall not be unexpected

But you don't know if hes choosing to do it or not.

In starcraft you do not know if he choses to have 3 workers or not in the extractor either -_-
HaLLeBaRy
Profile Joined May 2008
Turkey340 Posts
June 29 2008 11:35 GMT
#57
On June 29 2008 20:29 Klockan3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2008 19:57 BlackStar wrote:
Strange thing is pro MBS people seem to like it.

Even stranger is that pro sbs people seems to hate it eventhough its the same thing but in a different package.

And not its not just another button to press. You have to time when the cooldown is ready, just like you have to time unit production. Then you have to go back to your base, select 3 workers which just turned in minerals and then tell them to mine gas, when they arrive at the extractor activate the ability, go back to do other stuff for 30 secs or whatever the time is and then you need to go back and reissue them to the mineral line, repeat when the cooldown is up.

Now, if you do this for several bases macro load will get very comparable to sbs macro however the low-end players wont even care about this since to them minerals is the shit.
In the end, low end players wont suffer at all from this, high end players still get a huge advantage from the macro tasks and everyone should be happy.

Why is this better than sbs? Since its an option. Building units is not an option, its a requirement.

Show nested quote +
On June 29 2008 20:14 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
On June 29 2008 20:04 Cheerio wrote:
On June 29 2008 19:23 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
That's a horrible solution not only because of reasons already stated but also because for example in tvz when facing many ultras you can kill certain amounts and know he won't be able to remake them all but when you can increase your economy just by clicking something it breaks the whole way economy works


no it doesn't. You are aware of his ability to boost gas and thus any pumping up of gas-heavy-units shall not be unexpected

But you don't know if hes choosing to do it or not.

In starcraft you do not know if he choses to have 3 workers or not in the extractor either -_-

you NEED 3 workers in the extractor taking some out is only good early game to expo faster thats just crazy no one is going to leave 2 in it. You've got that backwards by the way with sbs it's not just " you have no choice but to make units" you choose which units to make when to make them , this ability on the other hand leans more towards the " do it or you'll fall behind" category
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-29 11:47:41
June 29 2008 11:44 GMT
#58
On June 29 2008 20:35 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2008 20:29 Klockan3 wrote:
On June 29 2008 19:57 BlackStar wrote:
Strange thing is pro MBS people seem to like it.

Even stranger is that pro sbs people seems to hate it eventhough its the same thing but in a different package.

And not its not just another button to press. You have to time when the cooldown is ready, just like you have to time unit production. Then you have to go back to your base, select 3 workers which just turned in minerals and then tell them to mine gas, when they arrive at the extractor activate the ability, go back to do other stuff for 30 secs or whatever the time is and then you need to go back and reissue them to the mineral line, repeat when the cooldown is up.

Now, if you do this for several bases macro load will get very comparable to sbs macro however the low-end players wont even care about this since to them minerals is the shit.
In the end, low end players wont suffer at all from this, high end players still get a huge advantage from the macro tasks and everyone should be happy.

Why is this better than sbs? Since its an option. Building units is not an option, its a requirement.

On June 29 2008 20:14 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
On June 29 2008 20:04 Cheerio wrote:
On June 29 2008 19:23 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
That's a horrible solution not only because of reasons already stated but also because for example in tvz when facing many ultras you can kill certain amounts and know he won't be able to remake them all but when you can increase your economy just by clicking something it breaks the whole way economy works


no it doesn't. You are aware of his ability to boost gas and thus any pumping up of gas-heavy-units shall not be unexpected

But you don't know if hes choosing to do it or not.

In starcraft you do not know if he choses to have 3 workers or not in the extractor either -_-

you NEED 3 workers in the extractor taking some out is only good early game to expo faster thats just crazy no one is going to leave 2 in it.

Edit: oh sorry, You commented on that other ability, nvm then...
Please quote what you are refering to or people can missinterpret what you are saying.
On June 29 2008 20:35 HaLLeBaRy wrote:
You've got that backwards by the way with sbs it's not just " you have no choice but to make units" you choose which units to make when to make them , this ability on the other hand leans more towards the " do it or you'll fall behind" category

So you can play starcraft without producing units, thats news to me!

Just to make it clearer, sbs does not add the choice of which units to build, just makes it a chore to build them. You can not draw on the complexity of unit choice since thats still there with mbs.
HaLLeBaRy
Profile Joined May 2008
Turkey340 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-29 11:50:35
June 29 2008 11:50 GMT
#59
Whatever it's pointless to argue over this ability anyway it's never going to get past beta unless blizzard ignores all the complaints which are definitely going to come. This is almost the same as giving a building that makes free units every minute and you have to keep making the free unit or you fall behind
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-29 11:55:52
June 29 2008 11:53 GMT
#60
Man clear up your thoughts and READ the upper posts!

first you say
But you don't know if hes choosing to do it or not.
then
this ability on the other hand leans more towards the " do it or you'll fall behind" category
=contradiction

And if you think making units is not a requirement and a choice between
1) gas
2) minerals + apm + wasted workers time spent on queing and moving between minerals and gas
is not an option I can't see what can we talk about


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