EPT[T] what could replace macro with MBS? - Page 5
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maybenexttime
Poland5770 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5770 Posts
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On June 25 2008 23:46 rkarhu wrote: In fact yes, I think CNC3 was dated when it comes to UI. And I really heard criticism about it, many reviews cited that the game felt essentially the same as older cnc games (but still managed to improve the series). And when I say "modern RTS" I don't mean just CNC3. Even Warcraft 3 had MBS and the versatility and awesomeness of Supreme Commander UI is unrivalled. And while saying that "making things easier isn't making the game better" you might be right to a certain point. Supreme Commander was such an awesome game because the UI was just that good. You could automate a lot of actions and you had supreme control of the battlefield and this was one of the main points that made the game so good and acclaimed by critics. So in conclusion, by making things easier to control and giving more options the game got better. What I'm trying to say is that Blizzard has 2 audiences to satisfy. By excluding MBS, automining and such they are making the game more competitive and satisfying the HC gamers who want the game to be as hard as SC1 was. But at the same time they are doing a disservice to ppl who want to play for fun and who don't have 3593495 apm to select every worker separately. Blizzard doesn't need to "statisfy" anyone, they can do whatever the fuck they want. Heck they could ship SC2 TODAY and it would still sell more than any other game this year cept for Sims and WoW and that income would STILL be dwarfed when the money from next months game-card sales rolled in. Ok i am exagerating a bit, but not a lot. The point is that blizzard can choose what they want SC2 to become. If they want to make a succesor to brood war they can do so and absolutly not give a shit that some people might not buy it. (Everyone will still buy it though) Sure they will probably make an easier game but they are not forced to. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On June 26 2008 06:56 maybenexttime wrote: How about you link to a poll that does not imply you have to implement MBS somehow in the very question, and where 6 out of 9 options are not "yes, MBS"? Doesn't really matter what it implies. I thought TL.net were the masters at rigging polls on teh internets, but we failed at even manipulating one poll on our own site. Now I'm not going to argue anything, but I'm just stating the facts as they are. Anyways, we just need a good way to make Terran more mechanically challenging and it's all good. Keep the ideas coming. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On June 27 2008 06:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Eh, wasn't the MBS poll rigged by a bunch of spammers which is why polls were subsequently banned in the SC2 forum -.-? Yes, that would be the "official" reason for closing the poll. There are no numbers to show whether it was true or not though, or if there were just as many TL riggers as well. The # of MBS and anti-MBS votes were actually very close from the start of the poll till the end. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Probably a decent bit of spamming from both sides, but if you just read most of the threads I think it's sort of clear that among TL.net regulars, the pro mbs-ers are in minority. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 27 2008 07:40 Unentschieden wrote: And that is the real reason polls are bad - the result would be pointless. TL.net is quite unique, I have yet to see a Forum whose population is so averse to change. We're not adverse to change, we just think SC2 should use only features that are good, not features that are new and popular. | ||
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kyjori
371 Posts
On June 25 2008 08:28 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Another thing to think about: if SC2 has the exact same mechanics as SC (what many here would probably prefer), it will automatically be P>Z>T once again (once the game is "perfectly balanced" as BW is) in the non-progamer scene. This is simply because of the lower mechanical demands Protoss has (fewer units, longer build times, etc.). This should be addressed so that the races can be "balanced" not only for progamers but for casual gamers up to "foreigner gosus" too. Generally, they should make T and Z as easy to play (mechanically) as P (mechanically), or P harder. They should at least add MUS (multiple unit selection, with a limit far higher than 12) because it's just really annoying for Zergs below progamer level to deal with all those lings and whatnot in late game. Again, advantage for P because of fewer units. since when was P > Z? i always thought it was reversed? bisu was the one anomoly but when most ppl play, if they let zerg get to hive tech it is fuckin bloody impossible to kill -_-; (assuming they have an economy to support hive tech) | ||
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kyjori
371 Posts
On June 25 2008 19:18 rkarhu wrote: The case here seems to be that many of you think that "casual players" dont care if there is MBS or not in the game. I assure you that this is definitely not the case. Majority of the casual players who buy SC2 have played other modern RTSs and they demand for a more accessible and improved UI with automining and MBS. They want a better game and I believe that a lot of UI improvements are called for to make SC2 a better "game"(even tough it takes away a lot of the skill). I'm pretty sure that many mediums will bash SC2 alot if it lacks MBS and automining and other UI features that are in other RTSs out there right now. Even tough Blizzard values its hardcore fans, they don't want their game to be labeled as a dated update by the majority of buyers (and media) and therefore automing and MBS and other UI changes that make the game easier WILL be implemented. It's inevitable. And before flaming ensues, I myself acknowledge the fact that implenting such changes into the game takes away a lot of it's competetiveness and diminishes the skill needed to be successfull. The challenge here for Blizzard is to add new factors that'll require skill and separate the pros from noobs. Hmh, I hope that I just didn't repeat everything that has been already said in this thread. and most of the casual games of other RTS games have moved on after d/ling a free copy of C&C3 off torrent websites finding disatisfaction in the game. when casual games ask for a "better game" it is very easily replaceable with "easy game" that they will move on from in another month or two. oh blizzard wants to fit the image of new game and not just an upgrade of sc1, but like dustin said in his interviews, they are having big issues with the balancing with mbs or wahtever. and are the critiques really gonna sway you that much? it seems as if word of mouth is the most effective form of advertisement among games personally. most of those critiques have not a fucking brain cell in their head when it comes to reviewing games they dont even know how to play. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Workers gather minerals at a linear continuous rate as opposed to a discontinuous rate. Instead of waiting 8 seconds, say, to return a load of 8 minerals, workers gather 1 mineral per second. So if you wanted, you could tell them to return cargo early and get the minerals that they mined in that time (anywhere from 1 to 7 minerals). Otherwise they default to returning minerals when they have the max amount. This way you can micro your timings... if you want a building that costs 150, and you have 146, you can have a worker halfway done mining return minerals to get the needed 4 and get the building 4 seconds earlier. You get the idea. | ||
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arctangent
United States4 Posts
Imo, Blizzard should add more UI features as long as they have options to turn them off for all players at the beginning of the game. Personally, I think it would be amazing to have full camera control in game. Some people would say that would make it easier, but it also lets you see and respond to more of the map which may reveal options that werent available before. Maybe zoom turns out to be terrible, but even then people could just switch back to the fixed camera option or never try it at all. It sounds a lot better than forcing a single standard and upsetting some people. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5770 Posts
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
http://www.starcraftwire.net/articles/656/first-wwi-starcraft-2-sneak-peak http://www.sclegacy.com/features/WWI08/media/photos/DSCN1357.jpg | ||
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heyitsme
153 Posts
On June 29 2008 05:10 MrRammstein wrote: wohohohooo look at this!! http://www.starcraftwire.net/articles/656/first-wwi-starcraft-2-sneak-peak http://www.sclegacy.com/features/WWI08/media/photos/DSCN1357.jpg Looks nice, I'm glad that they added this. However Morphalisks shouldn't have a gas cost IMO. To increase the amount of macro for Terran players, Blizzard could simply make it so that Terran addons for their production facilities (Reactor, Tech Lab) have limited uses. Therefore a Terran player will constantly have to keep track of them and he will have to salvage them and make new ones. Also the Merc Haven could have a secondary use aside of unlocking Reaper tech. Maybe it could give a certain kind of bonus to Terran infantry that rests in there for 30 seconds... something like non damaging stimpacks for Marines/Marauders or a new stock of D8 charges for Reapers. Also Terran infantry units that come out of there could be fully healed. The Ghost Academy could do something similar, it could increase the Mana Regeneration of Ghosts that are resting there. For Toss... how about having pylons being able to overheat and lose effectiveness when they start to support more Cannons, Warp-Ins and the advanced production buildings (Robo and StarGate). The psionic Matrix could become Red and Warp-In would be disabled for that area. Also the building time for your units would increase. You would have to regularly repair the pylons with probes or you could add some kind of ''recharge pylon'' ability to phase prisms. Deployed phase prisms could also be affected by this, so that you cannot warp-in an unlimited amount of units out there with only one phase prism. tl:dr I propose advanced infrastructure management for all races that have nothing to do with ressources: - Z already has advanced larva management and larva select is already unaffected by MBS - T should have add-ons management for their production facilities and can also use their secondary buildings to buff/restock their units - P already have Warp-in and should have advanced psionic matrix management | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
 I was thinking of splitting mineral patches... 1st I thought of using higher damage units to do it but 'kill' some % of minerals in targeted patch also... Terrans have Siege Tank, Protoss Immortals and Archons, Zerg... Slime and that's why it wouldn't work but I came up with something else:when mineral patch is mined out enough it can be split using 3-4 workers They are mining it normally instead of drilling only but gather less minerals during the process like 2-4 instead of current 6 (or 5 as I read?) and old 8. When process is completed patch splits into two (maybe even 3 if it was mined even more than needed) In that way player would have to constantly check if some patches can be split and manually do so... for better income | ||
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edahl
Norway483 Posts
Mass rally is nice. If that's something they want to keep, just remove the option to build units when you have multiple production facilities selected. That seems to me as being much more intuitive and clean than what was presented to me in the BWWI beta. What I played there mostly just felt like bad habits paying off. The main reason for that is that it's a slight part unintuitive, circumstantially useless (read: Zerg), and a large part rewarding to nannies and babysitters (read: People watching units do stuff). If you're used to actually having to macro, you're going to feel like you're doing it 'rong watching your precious lings 80% of the play-time. The part that makes it slightly useless is i.e. what happens if I have two Nexii hotkeyed to 4 and double tap. Do I end up in the middle? It actually left me too puzzled to even try, because hotkeys are just as locational as they are functional. This meaning that I had every single Hatchery as a Zerg hot keyed to different buttons, leaving MBS, in my experience, just an unpolished addition. The whole "5zzzssssiiii" thing only ended up with me using a just about as much time as I would doing normal macro (only less), but removing the whole aspect of not babysitting your troops the entire fucking time. The Gateways ended up as more of a "production pool" than an actual set of buildings with placements. In essence, "my base" became more of an abstract than an actual place where you would spend more than 1-2 seconds in setting up the next pylon. Even more so when the Gateways evolved to Warp Gates (they should consider removing rally points when they evolve, because you don't need them, and it's just extra clutter). Ok, so Blizzard, you've fallen in love with a flawed bastard child ... what do you do? Well, I guess you could add more mechanics like the gas renewal, gas boost or whatever, but then again, I do feel that this would ruin one of the most fundamental principle of StarCraft: Simple complexity. Personally, I don't think there's a lot they CAN do, and I'm afraid everyone is doomed to a life in SC2 with Flash-esque macro, and at least time for Boxer-esque micro. Sad, but true. Especially sad, because the crow that MBS is aimed for, wouldn't be able to tell the difference if they started out without it. In the end, it's a loose-loose situation. I think the whole of the SC competitive scene is held victim by the fact that the SC developers simply aren't that very good gamers, and simply don't want to get skilled but still be competitive. But that's the thing, you can't have one without the other and still have the other. It's very simple logics. If you lower the bar, you lower the level. Casual gamers does not care for their ungosuness, but they still care for a professional gamer's godlike skill. Hey, people can have a lot of fun with StarCraft from thinking having a lot of minerals makes you on a roll, or thinking one GateWay is just fine because it makes zealots. Still, I guess ... gg, sbs R.I.P. even for a n00b, it has been fun. (Disclaimer: 5 days of Paris and 2 days of BWWI into waiting late-night waiting for the plane home may make writing of posts a dangerous field of work for me. Please bear with logical fallacies or spelling errors if you can figure out the gist of it :-P) | ||
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Inzek
Chile802 Posts
issues: zerg regenerates, scv could repair itselves, probes ~. thats all.. just an idea. | ||
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