|
I dont think this really deserves its own thread but i was chillin pretty much staring at a wall and was thinking bout the macro problem. What if they tied MBS into the game storyline. Bare with me this is a rough idea and i dont really know where they could go with it but i though it was worth a mention. What if they had a building that allowed for the players to do MBS and tied it into the lore.
What if terran had some type of communications array that allowed you to "radio" more than one transmission at a time or something along those lines. It could be top tier so newbs and the such who absolutely need it can rush to it if they want and other who dont can have an advantage of supply mins and units? This would also help make late games more exciting because i know that in late game a lot of macro gets that much tougher and there is a lot more to do. So if you added MBS in the late game for pros or whatnot it could help to make those games closer, while still maintaining a sharp edge at the beginning.
You could also introduce this into the Single player to allow newbs to get used to the mechanic as in the beginning they can say that the radar array is down and that they will have to scalvage parts for a new one. This would help ease the flow of the game and allow newbs the chance to get accustomed to the play of SBS while not completely disappointing them later on in the game with the tediousness of late game macro.
Like i said in multiplayer they could use this as a strategic building that say you can only have one of, i know that sounds kinda CNCish but i dont know what else, and it would a strategic target to take out similar to a greater spire or science facility. This would also further cripple the player as they would have to build a new one before they began to use MBS again. One again newbs will opt to build this for the ease of play at the beginning and pros will opt to spend the minerals on units and tech giving them an advantage for their faster apm. Thus if the newb is actually good strategist and can out play the person who is not using the MBS building they can eventually gain an edge if they are on top of their macro and the other isnt.
Thoughts?
|
I think it's a bit too gimmicky. Also, unless this "MBS" building is made really expensive, everyone will build it. MBS is pretty much irrelevant to the game until at least past ~7-8 minute mark so its only late game that it will cause an impact in the first place.
|
I was thinking about Warp In... in favor of SBS
What if warping in would take 0 to 50% time more but not be as easy if used with SBS = no MBS in game?
lol edited
|
On July 08 2008 01:37 _PulSe_ wrote:
I dont think this really deserves its own thread but i was chillin pretty much staring at a wall and was thinking bout the macro problem. What if they tied MBS into the game storyline. Bare with me this is a rough idea and i dont really know where they could go with it but i though it was worth a mention. What if they had a building that allowed for the players to do MBS and tied it into the lore.
What if terran had some type of communications array that allowed you to "radio" more than one transmission at a time or something along those lines. It could be top tier so newbs and the such who absolutely need it can rush to it if they want and other who dont can have an advantage of supply mins and units? This would also help make late games more exciting because i know that in late game a lot of macro gets that much tougher and there is a lot more to do. So if you added MBS in the late game for pros or whatnot it could help to make those games closer, while still maintaining a sharp edge at the beginning.
You could also introduce this into the Single player to allow newbs to get used to the mechanic as in the beginning they can say that the radar array is down and that they will have to scalvage parts for a new one. This would help ease the flow of the game and allow newbs the chance to get accustomed to the play of SBS while not completely disappointing them later on in the game with the tediousness of late game macro.
Like i said in multiplayer they could use this as a strategic building that say you can only have one of, i know that sounds kinda CNCish but i dont know what else, and it would a strategic target to take out similar to a greater spire or science facility. This would also further cripple the player as they would have to build a new one before they began to use MBS again. One again newbs will opt to build this for the ease of play at the beginning and pros will opt to spend the minerals on units and tech giving them an advantage for their faster apm. Thus if the newb is actually good strategist and can out play the person who is not using the MBS building they can eventually gain an edge if they are on top of their macro and the other isnt.
Thoughts?
Man... if only PC Tard and others didn't exist.
BUT dude, changeable MBS timer, like appearing slowly during the game (allowing more buildings - 2,3,4 to be selected at once) would be great.
Explanation - satellite(s) enclosing, radio waves for the time being  especially since Scan is just satellite Scan, right? Energy goes for transmission IMHO
|
Hey I just had this crazy idea that is so obvious that I don't know how I didn't think about it before. I wanted to know what you guys think about it. You know, in WC3 they wanted to game to be much more micro and less macro, so the first thing they changed to go that route was decreasing food count to like ~75, then on TFT (wc3 expansion) they tried to shift balance a liiiitle bit more to macro so the first thing they did was to increase food count to ~90 (could be wrong about exact numbers, but you get the idea).
So if we want to add more macro to make up for MBS. Why don't we just increase the max food to like 250 or 300?
I personally would be very excited about it. It's not too much increase to break balance or make polygon count way too much laggier. But enough to force ppl to macro and multi-task more often.
More macro, more multi-tasking. But NO artificial interface block. What do you think?
|
I think they should experiment wit 250. 300 seems too much for regular maps perhaps; also take 4 on 4 etc. into consideration. 
|
why not let players be able to select max 2-3 buildings for one hotkey?
|
what was the original reason for the 200 food limit? afaik the other popular RTSs at the time (CnC, TA) didn't have food limits. I thought it to do with the engine not being able to support that many units
|
On July 09 2008 00:26 VIB wrote:
Hey I just had this crazy idea that is so obvious that I don't know how I didn't think about it before. I wanted to know what you guys think about it. You know, in WC3 they wanted to game to be much more micro and less macro, so the first thing they changed to go that route was decreasing food count to like ~75, then on TFT (wc3 expansion) they tried to shift balance a liiiitle bit more to macro so the first thing they did was to increase food count to ~90 (could be wrong about exact numbers, but you get the idea).
So if we want to add more macro to make up for MBS. Why don't we just increase the max food to like 250 or 300?
I personally would be very excited about it. It's not too much increase to break balance or make polygon count way too much laggier. But enough to force ppl to macro and multi-task more often.
More macro, more multi-tasking. But NO artificial interface block. What do you think?
So-So. The issue here is that the 200 supply limit serves as indirect "you are doing it wrong" message. You aren´t actually ever supposed to hit the limit, if you have 150+ supply you should attack your opponent.
WC3 is a good example that more complex Units/Heroes create more demanding Micro than masses of "run-and-gunners".
Also it might create Racial balance issues. Terrans are all about Critical Mass, after a certain point they simply melt their opponents before they can do any damage. Zerg on the other hand are somewhat limited by the amount of units that can attack a enemy at once. A global unitnumber increasement would strangely benefit Terrans more than the swarmy Zerg.
|
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the initial reason for the 200 supply limit in SC:BW was because of the limitations of the game engine. You can only have so many doodads in the map editor, you can only have so many units on the map per colour, etc. With so many units running around the engine simply cannot handle it.
200 seemed perfect to me because that was more than enough to attack an opponent and with several production buildings idle, you can hit the limit quickly again in no time.
After all these years, sure! More and more games are going the distance, so if need be it might not be a bad idea as long as the engine and computers can handle it.
I wouldn't mind seeing it go up to 250, 300, etc.
|
On July 09 2008 00:56 caution.slip wrote:
what was the original reason for the 200 food limit? afaik the other popular RTSs at the time (CnC, TA) didn't have food limits. I thought it to do with the engine not being able to support that many units There are a couple of other reasons (hardware limitation) but the main reason why there is a supply limit is exactly to balance micro vs macro. There's a limit because, even tho macro is cool, we don't wanna get to a point where you have so much units that micro is nonexistent and you're just attack-moving sauron mode using 100% of your APM to macro. So you put a limit to how much macro you can do.
But since in SC2 macro will be easier than in BW. You could increase the macro limit so you can macro more.
Unentschieden wrote:
So-So. The issue here is that the 200 supply limit serves as indirect "you are doing it wrong" message. You aren´t actually ever supposed to hit the limit, if you have 150+ supply you should attack your opponent. I just 100% disagree with what you just said :S Just, watch a couple of pro-games I guess, it will tell you the exact contrary.
Unentschieden wrote:
Also it might create Racial balance issues. That is a consequence of how the metagame developed. When they created SC1 they didn't think "hey, let's limit how many units people can have or else X race will beat Y race". If this was the case, they would have put different food limit for different races. But since it's just a consequence of how the metagame developed it can be balanced much like anything else in the game. You could either balance it by unit changing patches. Or balance it by putting more X favored maps, if X race feels weaker - like Kespa has been doing since ever and it's been working like a charm. I see no problem with it.
|
VIB wasn't it also because of the lag it generates with so many units on screen not to mention the limitations of the engine? I could have sworn that was the major factor in their decision, but yes it is because they wanted to balance micro and macro as well (when is it too much).
|
how could they want to balance micro and macro when they had no idea that micro and micro existed while making the game?
|
On July 08 2008 18:33 MrRammstein wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2008 01:37 _PulSe_ wrote:
I dont think this really deserves its own thread but i was chillin pretty much staring at a wall and was thinking bout the macro problem. What if they tied MBS into the game storyline. Bare with me this is a rough idea and i dont really know where they could go with it but i though it was worth a mention. What if they had a building that allowed for the players to do MBS and tied it into the lore.
What if terran had some type of communications array that allowed you to "radio" more than one transmission at a time or something along those lines. It could be top tier so newbs and the such who absolutely need it can rush to it if they want and other who dont can have an advantage of supply mins and units? This would also help make late games more exciting because i know that in late game a lot of macro gets that much tougher and there is a lot more to do. So if you added MBS in the late game for pros or whatnot it could help to make those games closer, while still maintaining a sharp edge at the beginning.
You could also introduce this into the Single player to allow newbs to get used to the mechanic as in the beginning they can say that the radar array is down and that they will have to scalvage parts for a new one. This would help ease the flow of the game and allow newbs the chance to get accustomed to the play of SBS while not completely disappointing them later on in the game with the tediousness of late game macro.
Like i said in multiplayer they could use this as a strategic building that say you can only have one of, i know that sounds kinda CNCish but i dont know what else, and it would a strategic target to take out similar to a greater spire or science facility. This would also further cripple the player as they would have to build a new one before they began to use MBS again. One again newbs will opt to build this for the ease of play at the beginning and pros will opt to spend the minerals on units and tech giving them an advantage for their faster apm. Thus if the newb is actually good strategist and can out play the person who is not using the MBS building they can eventually gain an edge if they are on top of their macro and the other isnt.
Thoughts? Man... if only PC Tard and others didn't exist. BUT dude, changeable MBS timer, like appearing slowly during the game (allowing more buildings - 2,3,4 to be selected at once) would be great. Explanation - satellite(s) enclosing, radio waves for the time being especially since Scan is just satellite Scan, right? Energy goes for transmission IMHO
omfg plz get like D+ iccup before posting
|
On July 09 2008 02:14 Swailoc wrote:
how could they want to balance micro and macro when they had no idea that micro and micro existed while making the game?
lol
'micro' and 'macro' existed before Starcraft, bud. They were well aware of it, but they had no idea it would amount to this.
|
On July 09 2008 00:56 caution.slip wrote:
what was the original reason for the 200 food limit? afaik the other popular RTSs at the time (CnC, TA) didn't have food limits. I thought it to do with the engine not being able to support that many units
I don't know if CnC had any but TA for sure. Some unit packs and stuff to download were extending that to 500 at least...
and reasoning behind cap is to force players to fight at some point in time if they avoid that?
|
On July 09 2008 02:06 Showtime! wrote:
VIB wasn't it also because of the lag it generates with so many units on screen not to mention the limitations of the engine? I could have sworn that was the major factor in their decision, but yes it is because they wanted to balance micro and macro as well (when is it too much). Yes, I've mentioned it a couple of times:
On July 09 2008 01:35 VIB wrote:
There are a couple of other reasons (hardware limitation) but the main reason why there is a supply limit is exactly to balance micro vs macro.
On July 09 2008 01:35 VIB wrote:
It's not too much increase to break balance or make polygon count way too much laggier. But enough to force ppl to macro and multi-task more often. Hardware is part of the problem, but not the problem. It's a 25% increase from 200 to 250 (so no too much). So you could estimate a approximately ~10~20% slower computer (since not all units will be on screen at the same time + food will not imply in directly proportional more polygons etc etc)
Main three reasons why there is a food cap, in order of importance (my personal opinion of course) is:
1) micro vs macro balance
2) hardware limitation
3) limit turtling (you have to attack at some time)
But I still think micro vs macro balance was the 1st and most important reason. So if we want to shift the balance in favor of macro (to make up MBS) let's increase the food cap a bit 
|
On July 09 2008 03:23 Showtime! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2008 02:14 Swailoc wrote:
how could they want to balance micro and macro when they had no idea that micro and micro existed while making the game?
lol 'micro' and 'macro' existed before Starcraft, bud. They were well aware of it, but they had no idea it would amount to this.
Obviously they were aware that you need to build units and move them around but they had no idea that someone would be so fast for the game to need some kind of balance between the 2, it was definitely not intentional even blizzard themselves said they had no idea it would be like this just like you said
|
On July 09 2008 03:43 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2008 02:06 Showtime! wrote:
VIB wasn't it also because of the lag it generates with so many units on screen not to mention the limitations of the engine? I could have sworn that was the major factor in their decision, but yes it is because they wanted to balance micro and macro as well (when is it too much). Yes, I've mentioned it a couple of times: Show nested quote +On July 09 2008 01:35 VIB wrote:
There are a couple of other reasons (hardware limitation) but the main reason why there is a supply limit is exactly to balance micro vs macro. Show nested quote +On July 09 2008 01:35 VIB wrote:
It's not too much increase to break balance or make polygon count way too much laggier. But enough to force ppl to macro and multi-task more often. Hardware is part of the problem, but not the problem. It's a 25% increase from 200 to 250 (so no too much). So you could estimate a approximately ~10~20% slower computer (since not all units will be on screen at the same time + food will not imply in directly proportional more polygons etc etc) Main three reasons why there is a food cap, in order of importance (my personal opinion of course) is: 1) micro vs macro balance 2) hardware limitation 3) limit turtling (you have to attack at some time) But I still think micro vs macro balance was the 1st and most important reason. So if we want to shift the balance in favor of macro (to make up MBS) let's increase the food cap a bit
increasing the food cap doesn't help if you don't have to spend any time adding extra cap. if anything this adds more micro because you'll have more units to work with without working for the units
|
On July 09 2008 03:49 Swailoc wrote:
if you don't have to spend any time adding extra cap If you don't spend any time adding extra thinking before you post, you'll just look dumb and not contribute to the thread. Please stop wasting our bandwidth and time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
